Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230902#Comment_121230902

Where did he say that? Was it in another post?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230986#Comment_121230986

Take the apartment out and not the entire building? The IDF are literally demolishing entire apartment blocks via bombs from the air. Hamas already reporting 12 hostages have been killed by IDF bombing (not that what they say should be trusted)

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230897#Comment_121230897

Look fair enough that you recognise other people's opinions.

There are no winners and neither side are without blame in the middle east.

I think what's unfair is putting all the blame on Israel. In fairness after ww2 the UN ratified a 2 state solution. It was Palestinians in cahoots with Arab league that invaded shortly after to grab land , and its been a mess since.

I think Britain and US are making their presence felt to possibly evacuate their citizens or deter any other country getting involved

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230978#Comment_121230978

How many dead Palestinians would satisfy your blood lust?

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230902#Comment_121230902

Gosh alot of assumptions being made there my friend

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230951#Comment_121230951

“Asked” 😁

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231011#Comment_121231011

2 points.

Nothing for ancient Greece I'm afraid but it is a new one so kudos for that.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230978#Comment_121230978

while they wouldn't last 5 minutes in Hamas-controlled Gaza is not lost on many I'm sure.

Would that be because of the "all Palestinians are sub-human wild savages" narrative?

Plenty of Irish people have visited there. Not all were special-forces-commando-level-tough-lads like yourself. Obviously it wouldn't be recommended to visit there now while Israel are indiscriminately murdering anything that moves in the place.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231010#Comment_121231010

Not so much Hamas dictating Israeli response but Israel recognising that there’s will be high civilian casualties with their approach.

Netanyahu doesn't give 2 figs about civilian casualties, he is basically Vilos Cohaagen in Total Recall.

He cares about the optics of the body bags of Israeli soldiers if he embarks on the folly of a full ground invasion.

Questions are starting to be asked in Israel, about how exactly the South was left abandoned when Netanyahu himself was told personally an attack was imminent.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231042#Comment_121231042

Yep, super place for a sun holiday I've heard all right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230991#Comment_121230991

"However you think that the Palestinian ones don't count depending on how they were killed."

Here's the remotely relevant bit that you posted. You're blatantly trying to guess my intentions here. And yes, you are avoiding the intent argument in an attempt create moral equivalence. You can try as many times as you like to get around this but you're no nearer to succeeding.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231054#Comment_121231054

Well I wouldn't go to Leitrim on a holiday. That's not the same as me claiming I wouldn't last 5 minutes there.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231029#Comment_121231029

Look this is ridiculous! You responded to my post in a civil reasonable fashion. Its unfair catching me off guard like that. Anyway have a good weekend. BTW and completely off topic is anyone else getting pissed off with all these businesses advertising on radio jumping on the current rugby bandwagon. " watch Andy Farrell and the boys in green from the comfort of your new sofa, only €2999, while stocks last!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231055#Comment_121231055

There is no point in continuing this. I explained it and it is quite simple.

(1) You complained about people asking about sources for a narrative of how certain people were killed. You said the method did not matter.

(2) When confronted with a narrative about how others were killed, you immediately asked for sources. What isn't in doubt is that they were killed.

(1) and (2) happened literally 5 posts apart in the thread.

It is not point scoring. It is just encouraging you to take a step back and apply whatever though process you are using on "one side" to the "other side". If you find yourself applying different standards, then you can ask yourself why

And to repeat, the intent was already covered. Google the phrase which I italicised - virtual certainty. The original case which arose under English law was Nedrick. Under our law, it would often be referred to as oblique intention.

Gatling

Hamas now claiming 13 hostages have been killed due to airstrikes .

Still no mention of them realising the remaining hostages

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231042#Comment_121231042

Did the visitors express any opinions that Hamas disagreed with?

If you aren’t a Hamas gilly you would be in for a very rough time.

That was clearly the point being made.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230966#Comment_121230966

I think it's somewhat naive and childish to say this is "revenge" in the simplistic sense of the word.

Obviously some Israeli's will see it that way, but this is about pulverizing and destroying Hamas, a Jihadi terror organisation, and neutralizing its capability to carry out anything remotely on that scale ever again.

And Hamas is a stain on Gaza, Islamic State in a different robe. They've made life significantly worse for Palestinians in Gaza and achieved nothing, they bask in Israel killing their own civilian population and actively encourage it.

That doesn't make civilian casualties OK or acceptable. It doesn't make Israel's actions justifiable or excusable. But it is what it is, it's the real world. It's not revenge for the sake of revenge and it's not deliberating targeting civilians for the sake of targeting civilians.

It's all perfectly horrific but as someone put it elsewhere, Israel's actions are completely heartless but not at all headless.

It's impossible to conduct war in an urban environment without casualties. Not one person on this thread has put forward even the vaguest solution to what Israel should actually do. "I would start by not killing kids" is not a real-world answer.

Once again, because some people need to be told this explicitly in every post, simply stating basic facts are not an endorsement of Israel no more than being pro-Palestinian is an endorsement of Hamas.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231077#Comment_121231077

And you too Dan 👍

I get you re the ads but I guess we as a small country could be on the brink of something huge.

As nervous as a bag of cats for next 2 days

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230054#Comment_121230054

You are obviously saying an eye witness lied about rape. Because they gave eye witness testimony which you have read describing rapes. Yet you refuse to accept that rapes occurred.

You said they were there as an IDF soldier. You have provided exactly zero evidence to support that. This is an obvious pretence you have latched onto without foundation to avoid accepting their evidence. Anything other than accept you were wrong in your attempts to exonerate Hamas of these accusations.

If you do not accept their testimony, then of course you are accusing the witness of lying.

Raz Cohen, Survivor of Music Festival Attack: We go to hide in a bush, a big bush in the creek. And we was in the bush something like six or seven hours. A lot of terrorists go around us and search for people to kill. The terrorists, people from Gaza, raped girls. And after they raped them, they killed them, murdered them with knives, or the opposite, killed — and after they raped, they — they did that.

So yes, you have multiple times now accused an eye witness of rape of lying. It is utterly disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/survivors-of-hamas-assault-on-music-fest-describe-horrors-and-how-they-made-it-out-alive

Images have been shared of mutilated babies online. You well know - again, they cannot be shared here. You could go away and google it, but of course you won't and you don't so you can keep up these denials. Know then that your denials are based purely on your refusal to engage with the evidence.

You have not condemned the atrocities against babies, as a fact, as something that actually occurred by Hamas. That they were executed by Hamas - even that much you have not done. Find me the post where you did so. Vague references to condemning atrocities without specifying what that relates to is not condemning Hamas for these actions. In doing so, you exonerate Hamas of guilt for raping civilians and executing babies and smear the victims and those who witnessed the atrocities.

What will your next excuse be to avoid doing so? Because let there be no doubt, at this point in the face of the evidence that has emerged, an excuse it will be.

I'll repost another poster's comments as it sums up your posts here very accurately:

The sheer number of people on twitter, plus other media, hopping up and down in the last few days screaming for confirmation that babies were being beheaded, while sidelining the rather important fact that Hamas had already plumbed incredible depths of barbarity by killing babies anyway. Did the method of their killing really matter after that?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230357/#Comment_121230357

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231080#Comment_121231080

Not interested in arguing semantics with you at this stage. It's clear what you are at, not that you are going to admit it of course. Agreed, I think we are done here.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231116#Comment_121231116

That's fine. You can refuse to admit you were hypocritical and just run away if you want and leave it at that.

brickster69

Turkey sending aid for Gaza. Plane has just landed and aid is heading towards the Egyptian border. I doubt Israel would attack a NATO member.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231087#Comment_121231087

Still no mention of them realising the remaining hostages

They're probably already dead. Hamas could easily have killed the hostages and place the dead bodies at the site of Israeli air strikes

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231100#Comment_121231100

Cheers, BTW I think it's "cross " as a bag of cats! Maybe nervous as a kitten.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231098#Comment_121231098

"We will take mighty vengeance for this wicked day," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.

It literally is revenge. Nothing childish or naive about it.

I agree that it is impossible to avoid all civilian casualties. However those casualties can be minimised. Searching an apartment block for terrorists rather than levelling it being one example.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230251#Comment_121230251

This.

Pretty much all information filtering out of Gaza is coming from Hamas and other Palestinian-led organisations.

They are believed without question.

Yet some posters have been doing all they can to try and deny the claims that Hamas behead babies. Nothing less than pictures will satisfy them, and then of course some will go on about deep-fakes and all that.

It is very clear. Some posters are displaying and pushing anti-Semitic tropes and narratives. We have had numerous anti-Semitic comments on this thread from multiple posters, some of them even justify the murder of Jews. Its a shameful thing.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230966#Comment_121230966

They're far worse than Hamas.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/10/now-we-have-your-attention/

The historic killing rate in this “conflict” has been fairly consistent at about 40:1.

It's like the slave owners condemning the slaves for their intemperate behaviour when they rebel. It's horrific what Hamas did but Israel have been and are doing far worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231132#Comment_121231132

"while sidelining the rather important fact that Hamas had already plumbed incredible depths of barbarity by killing babies anyway. Did the method of their killing really matter after that?"

As already said here's the big picture if you missed it Donald. I just think this is what really matters at the end of the day. If you think differently so be it.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231150#Comment_121231150

Searching apartments blocks in hostile territory means a lot of boots and equipment having to be moved to a target which then is surrounded and attacked from all side and from rooftops soldiers die, Terrorists die and unfortunately civilians get caught in the cross fire, sometimes leveling a building is the safest option, I would rather see raids but it's Israel's call

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231179#Comment_121231179

Safest for who?

chewed

Is there anyone on this thread that believes that Israel forcing 1.1 million civilians to leave their homes is warranted and acceptable? I would love to hear if your arguments.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231150#Comment_121231150

Comical stuff.

'Hands up those of you who are terrorists? OK you step to the left please. The remainder of you stay where you are.'

Snooker Loopy

The 2003 Iraq War was the major event which heralded mass disenchantment with politics in the western world and the rise of widespread ultra-cynicism. This was massively helped along the way by the financial crisis of 2008 and the disastrous information environment we all now inhabit.

What Israel does here and the total western support for it will likely massively accelerate that process and benefit extremism.

An upsurge in Islamist terrorism in the west is certain. Right wing extremists will benefit because of the rise in anti-Muslim hatred which will follow the rise in Islamist terrorism. Le Pen will likely come to power in France in 2027. Viktor Orban style bastards will continue their rise throughout the continent. The prospect of a Trump win in the US next year looks more and more likely.

Liberal centrism will probably totally collapse because the European Union and the Democratic party in the US will be seen to have discredited themselves Tony Blair style in supporting war crimes. When you are the self appointed guardians of international law, of right and wrong, when you fail on this scale and you go all in on the cavalier destruction of international law and support for war crimes, you lose all moral authority to pronounce on anything. The double standard of supporting Ukraine in fighting against barbaric invasion yet supporting a Russia style campaign of barbaric destruction by an occupying power against a civilian population will be too great to withstand.

There will be a continued and accelerated move towards mass conspiracism. Mass conspiracism has up to now been more associated with the right-wing but we will se a a massive rise in left conspiracism sympathetic to Russia. Israel is likely securing the re-election of Mick Wallace and Clare Daly as MEPs anyway. That Wallace and Daly are themselves total shameless hypocrites and charlatans who supported the butcher Assad in Syria and his war crimes will be cast aside as they cosplay as heroic defenders of human rights against a discredited EU.

The extremes which flourish will both be hostile to Jews - though the Orban style despots will maintain friendly relations with Israel while simultaneously fomenting anti-Semitism, and life for Jewish people in Europe will get a lot harder.

Chaos has already been at Europe’s door for quite a while, but this could easily be the event that ends the west as we know it and plunges Europe and America into chaos for real. Everybody will be a massive hypocrite, whataboutery will become totally endemic, and everybody will shout and scream. A war, almost, of all against all. Out of this, despotism always rises, freedom is destroyed.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230514#Comment_121230514

Unless of course the Zionists finally get what they want and continue bombing until they wipe these people out completely.

Anti-Semetic scutter.

Israel does not want to 'kill' everyone in Gaza. You are parroting old tropes about blood libel.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231181#Comment_121231181

The Israeli military,and any other military in the same situation

nonyabidness23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231098#Comment_121231098

I think that view is very dangerous, entitled and arrogant.

You say they want to destroy Hamas and the Jihad, and you think by dropping apartment blocks with innocent men women and children in them will do that? America tried that for 20 years in Iraq and Afghan didnt work out too well for them did it?

That approach just breeds more hate more attacks more revenge, more radicals.

But make no mistake any modern military that knowingly and calculatedly drops heavy ordinance on densely populated civilian areas, after stopping all medical, food and water supplies, is a terrorist they know exactly what they are doing and they know exactly the outcome of it and proceed regardless.

That is a calculated decision to murder civilians and worst of children.

You dont beat Hamas by becoming a more "Righteous" version of Hamas.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230147#Comment_121230147

Syria is backed by Russia wholeheartedly. It wouldn't exist as it is today if not.

Plenty criticize the US and Israel and that backing is always being questioned - and justified. Feel free to call out the government of Israel on its policies, you live in a free country where you can do that. As do Americans.

Don't try criticizing the government in Russia, Syria, China or Gaza, though.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231103#Comment_121231103

You are not telling the truth about any of this.

The eye witness who alleged not just rape but necrophilia, Roz Cohen, is an IDF soldier.

Look at your own link from a previous post for goodness sake, which you obviously haven’t because you claimed Roz Cohen was a woman!

INTERVIEWER;” You're a soldier. You have fought. Have you ever seen anything like this? How terrifying were these moments for you?”

ROZ COHEN; “I don't think that the words can even explain how it was terrifying.”

Are you just going to ignore the evidence that the witnesses is, as I said l, an IDF soldier, even though it is in the link you shared?

I have, multiple times, as you know, condemned both the attack and the killing of men, women and children. Why pretend I haven’t?

There is no evidence 40 babies were beheaded.

Stop pretending there is.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231187#Comment_121231187

What about this much lauded Israeli intelligence apparatus? Are you telling me they don't know who they are looking for?

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231098#Comment_121231098

My issue with it is that it’s unlikely to result in the destruction of Hamas - and if you’re going to carry out attacks on a population indiscriminately, I think the only way you might have to justify it is if you can guarantee your actions will be successful.

Dropping thousands of bombs into urban areas and removing water and electricity is showing severe cruelty to Palestinians. Many will lose their families and their homes due to this course of action.

How many of those will be radicalised then, join Hamas and keep the circle of violence going?

Israel aren’t conducting a targeted attack to destroy an enemy, they’re holding Gaza under siege with little option for anyone who doesn’t want to be in danger.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230544#Comment_121230544

The Palestinians never accepted Israel in the first place.

The UN voted for resolution 181(II) for the partition of Palestine between Jews and Arabs. The Arabs rejected this and launched a war which they lost.

80 years later, they still go on about it and do not accept the right of Israel to exist.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230293#Comment_121230293

Any Hamas casualties aren't innocent. What did Mary Robinson suggest Israel should do? Throw flowers at Hamas? At Hezbollah (who are also attacking Israel?)

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231196#Comment_121231196

We should be looking at the safest option for civilians.

MadYaker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231197#Comment_121231197

What should Isreal do so? Sit back and do nothing?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231206#Comment_121231206

UN does something pro-Israel: BAD!

UN does something anti-Israel (e.g., Zionism as racism resolution): GOOD!

Just anti-semitic to think otherwise. Like BDS and revisionism like "Naqba."

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231138#Comment_121231138

Interesting, in some of the videos of the kibbutz attack, Hamas terrorists were actually going back to take dead Israeli bodies away in their cars. I did see in some of their plans for the attack posted online that it said to take hostages to use for future negotiations - have to wonder were they told to take bodies too to potentially stage at bomb sites.

Just a hypothesis, as I did find it a bit weird how out of their way they seemed to be going to collect bodies to bring back. Either way, I'm sure plenty of the hostages who were still alive have since been killed in Israeli airstrikes.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231223#Comment_121231223

Need props for their parades.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231176#Comment_121231176

What's the point of that - I take you up on a particular point and then you selectively quote your original post - cutting out the point I was addressing i.e. trying to criticize people as "screaming for confirmation"?

Here is your original post (#4904)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230357#Comment_121230357

In the middle, I gave you the (made up) narrative on how Palestinian's were killed. You replied (post #4912 - I apologise for saying 5 posts later when it was actually 8!)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230379#Comment_121230379

It appears that, for you, the method doesn't matter on "one side", but on the "other side" it does. At least enough for you to immediately jump to doing exactly what you had criticised literally a few posts earlier - i.e. asking for sources. Or should I say "screaming for confirmation"?

I merely pointed out your inconsistency.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231098#Comment_121231098

I think it's somewhat naive and childish to say this is "revenge" in the simplistic sense of the word.

Obviously some Israeli's will see it that way, but this is about pulverizing and destroying Hamas, a Jihadi terror organisation, and neutralizing its capability to carry out anything remotely on that scale ever again.

Is it about pulverizing and destroying Hamas? Or is that itself too simplistic? Is it even achievable?

The likes of Hamas give Israel the excuses it needs to commit war crimes. I mean there is no excuses, but they use it as one.

Netanyahu sees Hamas as an asset not a burden, as long as Hamas exists a Palestine state is not achievable.

Again though there is serious questions being asked in Israel, apparently it was reported in Israeli media before the attack that Hamas had been training for weeks on the border, it also transpires that a IDF battalion normally stationed in the South and were due back there on the Friday before the attacks were told stay in the West Bank looking over a pray meeting.

Given American intelligence have confirmed the Egyptian intelligence and claims, Bibi has some serious questions to answer.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231179#Comment_121231179

The tunnels will be the issue,

the American experience with the Vietcong tunnels is instructive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E1%BB%A7_Chi_tunnels