Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121731992#Comment_121731992

"worse than the Nazis"

Hmmm, hyperbole much?

When the Israelis ever set up a Treblinka or Sobibor or do stuff like Babyn Yar, we might revisit your accusation, until then......

Toeuptony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740565#Comment_121740565

But you are wanting it both ways. My position is at worst equally hypocritical as yours, but seeing as Israel has been ignoring the rulings on settlements for years, I would argue yours is more hypocritical.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740595#Comment_121740595

People who spout stuff like "they are worse than the Nazi's" show off their historical ignorance.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740607#Comment_121740607

I have been clear on settlements in the West Bank.

They should stop and it doesn't help the situation. I wish the Israeli people after this war has ended successfully in getting rid of Hamas, elect a more thoughtful government where new settlements stop being built.

However, Hamas need to release the hostages today, without any condition.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740572#Comment_121740572

Well they've blown up nearly every other building, it didn't damage itself so the fact they were finishing the job doesn't make this any better.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740734#Comment_121740734

You dont have to refer to me in the 3rd person, its a bit rude.

There are two ways to look at it.

You could say that the Jewish-Arab conflict that started approx 1920 has had multiple incidents and multiple wars. That is the long long view. (You could go back further than 1920)

Or

You could say that there have been multiple wars, wth the 1948 war being one of them, along with 6 day war in 1967, Yom Kippur War in 1973, etc...

Every historian would call the invasion of May 1948 a war in its own right as it escalated an internal conflict to a regional conflict.

Regardless, Israel did not start the war of 1948 which was my very original point I refuted, a point you actually agree with.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740747#Comment_121740747

I don't know, that is all subjective, but it seems you are coming around to the idea that the Tweet you posted as misinformation.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740617#Comment_121740617

Even if they do that immediately i.e. stop new settlements being built, you have still have the problem of all the old settlements...just saying.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740485#Comment_121740485

Those arrested under Israeli law are arrested and imprisoned under the laws of a sovereign democratic state, and that is not a war crime.

The taking of hostages by terrorists on October 7th is a war crime.

Remember my position on this from the very start has been that the release of the hostages by Hamas is the single most important thing to stop this war. The second most important is the handing over by Hamas of those responsible for the war crimes. Once those two acts happen, anything the Israelis do after that loses the cover of being in self-defence. At no time have I condoned what Israel has done, I have pointed to how it is in legitimate self-defence under international law until proven otherwise.

Leo Varadkar made an interesting point on radio this morning, when he said that if the ICJ finds Israel innocent of genocide (a likely outcome in my mind, given the legal requirements), South Africa will find itself as the country which has wrongly accused Israel of genocide.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740558#Comment_121740558

Explain to me using international law (not Palestinian propaganda) what hostages Israel is holding.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740792#Comment_121740792

I agree, and that in of itself is a bit of a mess and I guess would be part of any long-standing peace agreement with the Palestinians.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740802#Comment_121740802

Just a few examples. Now please tell me how Israel detaining minors and adults without charge, without informing them of the charge, without due process of justice adheres to this. In fact, as someone who shouts about international law I’m really surprised you’ve asked me this. Even stranger you would think Israeli is adhering to rights of a detainee. Tell me. Do you think Israeli prisoners and Palestinian prisoners are treated equally?

Sources;

Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment, G.A. res. 43/173, annex, 43 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 49) at 298, U.N. Doc. A/43/49 (1988).

Principle 10

Anyone who is arrested shall be informed at the time of his arrest of the reason for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.

Principle 11

1. A person shall not be kept in detention without being given an effective opportunity to be heard promptly by a judicial or other authority. A detained person shall have the right to defend himself or to be assisted by counsel as prescribed by law.

2. A detained person and his counsel, if any, shall receive prompt and full communication of any order of detention, together with the reasons therefor.

3. A judicial or other authority shall be empowered to review as appropriate the continuance of detention.

Principle 12

1. There shall be duly recorded:

(a) The reasons for the arrest; (b) The time of the arrest and the taking of the arrested person to a place of custody as well as that of his first appearance before a judicial or other authority;

(c) The identity of the law enforcement officials concerned;

(d) Precise information concerning the place of custody.

2. Such records shall be communicated to the detained person, or his counsel, if any, in the form prescribed by law.

Principle 13

Any person shall, at the moment of arrest and at the commencement of detention or imprisonment, or promptly thereafter, be provided by the authority responsible for his arrest, detention or imprisonment, respectively with information on and an explanation of his rights and how to avail himself of such rights.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740980#Comment_121740980

That isn't contained in any international Treaty and has no force of law.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740595#Comment_121740595

Come on. Let's not pretend they wouldn't do that in an instant if they could get away with it.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741001#Comment_121741001

How about this which basically says the same thing which is legally binding.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

ADOPTED

16 December 1966

BY

General Assembly resolution 2200A (XXI)

Article 9

1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.

2. Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.

3. Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release. It shall not be the general rule that persons awaiting trial shall be detained in custody, but release may be subject to guarantees to appear for trial, at any other stage of the judicial proceedings, and, should occasion arise, for execution of the judgement.

4. Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful.

5. Anyone who has been the victim of unlawful arrest or detention shall have an enforceable right to compensation.

Article 10

1. All persons deprived of their liberty shall be treated with humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.

2.

(a) Accused persons shall, save in exceptional circumstances, be segregated from convicted persons and shall be subject to separate treatment appropriate to their status as unconvicted persons;

(b) Accused juvenile persons shall be separated from adults and brought as speedily as possible for adjudication.

3. The penitentiary system shall comprise treatment of prisoners the essential aim of which shall be their reformation and social rehabilitation. Juvenile offenders shall be segregated from adults and be accorded treatment appropriate to their age and legal status.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741059#Comment_121741059

Hamas.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741016#Comment_121741016

You mean like ISIS, Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah would drive the Jews into the sea if they could get away with it?

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741175#Comment_121741175

Yes, I agree, Israel are exaclty like a terrorist organisation.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740136#Comment_121740136

The ICJ did not rule Hamas were in breach of anything.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740202#Comment_121740202

How about sniping a woman with a child carrying a white flag? Would be that be notoriously hard to prove in court of law?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740212#Comment_121740212

I trust you'll take your own advice and only post from credible sources yourself and not random twitter accounts.

Do you really believe the IDF conversation would look like this?

"Oh look, there's a very dangerous looking building. We must demolish it in a controlled explosion just in case it possible collapses and injures anyone. Oh, and we must write up an engineering report in full. Call the architect."

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740273#Comment_121740273

Well, given you have already stated the importance of "credible sources" you might just read the ICJ ruling again and ensure you post facts.

The ICJ did not rule against Hamas.

I'll even help you - paragraph #85

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740550#Comment_121740550

I don't know what their purpose was for kidnapping them but any kidnapping usually has a ransom or other purpose to it. I think Hamas has made a pretty offer i e the prisoners will be released when the bombing stops. Pretty fair offer under the circumstances and considering the force the IDF is using like 2,000 bombs and shooting everything on sight.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740541#Comment_121740541

There are plenty of instances of the IDF targeting children deliberately.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740786#Comment_121740786

He's literally boasting about it on his FB page, how is anything "subjective"?

For the record I don't think the tweet is "misinformation", you're defending israeli war crimes by stating "well it was damaged so they're making it safe" without acknowledging the fact that it was damaged by 8sraeli war crimes!

You constantly expect people to "condemn Hamas" yet are happy to post every day making excuses for blatant war crimes.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740589#Comment_121740589

Any right thinking person would recognise a wrong when they'd see it. In this instance of mass murder the Jewish people should be the first to recognise and condemn it.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740793#Comment_121740793

Those arrested under Israeli law are arrested and imprisoned under the laws of a sovereign democratic state, and that is not a war crime.

It depends who is arrested and where. Not a war crime, but:

• Approximately 50% of Palestinian child detainees are held in prisons in Israel in breach of Article 76 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

https://www.militarycourtwatch.org/page.php?id=a6r85VcpyUa4755A52Y2mp3c4v

pjohnson

More Israeli scumbaggeryy.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/arid-41327584.html

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740595#Comment_121740595

They have prison camps where they treat their inmates very badly, even those who haven't been convicted. What they are doing in Gaza is horrendous and quite similar to what the Nazis did. They have probably exceeded what the Nazis did in the first 4 months of this than they managed in WW2.

Toeuptony

https://x.com/alon_mizrahi/status/1755636768408228071?s=20

I suppose that this was a strike "near" an ambulance.