Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743876#Comment_121743876

Mossad are ruthless and indifferent to the killing of non Israelis, but I have a hard time believing they would sit on their hands and allow Israelis be killed en masse. Everything they do , whether you agree with their actions or not, is done with the mindset of protecting Israelis. I think they were asleep on the job as it were. Intelligence agencies are not infallible, they get it wrong sometimes. Dief kept the planning of this operation to a tight circle. The US has assessed that even the Iranians didn't have foreknowledge of what was going to happen. It's possible that at some point information was dismissed that something might be up due to complacency . I don't buy either that Bibi as ruthless and cunning as he is would have wanted these attacks to occur. He would surely know it would destroy his reputation as "Mr Security".

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743330#Comment_121743330

The Gaza Ministry of Health figures are accurate and have ben recognised as such by the likes of the UN.

Every Palestinian in Gaza is given an "identification number" by the Israelis when they are born. It is these Israeli numbers that are used to generate those killed in Gaza. They only report confirmed dead people.

There are suspected to be at least 7000 civilians buried under the rubble, shredded by 2000lb bombs or burned beyond recognition by white phosphorous. However, thee are not reported as they cannot be confirmed as dead.

Presumably, the infants found decomposing in ICU because they could not be evacuated, didn't even get their Israeli tags.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743953#Comment_121743953

Here you are, straight from the New York Times, sorry, I mean Twitter:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html

By Ronen Bergman and Adam Goldman

Reporting from Tel Aviv

Published Nov. 30, 2023

Updated Dec. 2, 2023

Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.

The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743570#Comment_121743570

A case is being prepared:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/south-african-lawyers-preparing-lawsuit-against-us-uk-for-complicity-in-israels-war-crimes-in-gaza/3109201

TelephoneTag

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743932#Comment_121743932

And some wonder why the Palestinians fight back.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743783#Comment_121743783

Pot, kettle, black.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743289#Comment_121743289

Actually it's far more likely that Russia is behind this war. Russia egged on Iran to egg on Hamas to stage an outrage, knowing that the bloodthirsty genocidal Israelis were only waiting for an excuse to smash the Gaza region.

All to deflect from their invasion of Ukraine and diminish supplies of funding and munitions to Ukraine. And Israel / USA/ UK fell for it, hook line & sinker.

Disgusted that the Irish basketball team played that match yesterday, sold their souls to the devil for forty pieces of silver. A bad day for sport and for basketball in particular in Ireland.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743932#Comment_121743932

I made a case as to why the Palestinians react to being bullied for 75 years by the Israelis and turned your own narrative on its head. That is all.

The same Palestinians who attacked Israel with the help of Arabs no less than 3 times (And lost)?

The same Palestinians who are on their 3rd Intifada?

The same Palestinians who divert precious resources and launch thousands of rockets into Israel?

The same Palestinians who blew themselves up in cafes and buses?

The same Palestinians whose leaders are billionaires according to Forbes?

The same Palestinians who launched the October 7th attack, that deliberately targeted civilians, women and children?

etc..

etc....

At the end of the day, this is a long drawn-out conflict and the main takeaway is that the Palestinians have been on a losing streak because of choices they have made.

Go back to Arafat and examine what he was offered by Clinton. He turned it down and led his people down the rabbit hole of destruction we see today.

I remember when Sharon was made PM, the Palestinians were dancing on the streets because they thought he would bring the fight to the West Bank and like the good brainwashed people they were, they thought they would push them back, and finally 'win' their freedom through violence... with the help of the international community of course...

That was 25 years ago, how did that turn out?

I feel for the average Palestinian, I really do, but an objective look at history shows us that they have been led astray by their leaders who are corrupt morally and intellectually. Too often they have gone back to the "Well, let's just lob some more rockets at them" tactic, with no end to the issues.

When the dust settles on this latest phase of this conflict and it will, I hope that Hamas will be eradicated as a force in Gaza and something better, more moderate comes up from the ashes. I also hope Bibi will get off the stage and that the Israeli public reflect and revise what they need to do in order to restore peace in the Levant. But it can't be all on their heads either. The wider Arab world and Palestinians need to stop the cycle of hate, overt anti-semitism and revenge violence that has led to this point.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743964#Comment_121743964

I'll post what I want from where I want,

I know that now.

I just thought you would at least pretend you would do some due diligence on the accounts and sources you re-post. But even though it has been pointed out to you multiple times that the accounts you use are spreaders of fake news, misinformation and disinformation, you seem hell-bent on your objective.

Therefore one has to conclude you are happy, if not proud of yourself, that you are spreading misinformation and disinformation on this thread, given the Twitter accounts you repost.

I cannot stop you of course, but I can point it out.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744043#Comment_121744043

Again, instead of attacking the source why don't you try and reumfute the evidence?

We had this discussion last week when you tried to play this card, no matter how many times it was pointed out to you that the sourcer was just retweeting a video from someone else you flatly refused to discuss the content and continued to attack the source.

You do this with any evidence posted, you either attack the source or just ignore any evidence when you can't attack the source.

TelephoneTag

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744027#Comment_121744027

Irish basketball legitimized them, they could have found a way.

If the people won't back boycotting of a murderous regime what is going on with their moral compass.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743992#Comment_121743992

Fair enough.

The loose plan and intelligence were gathered, but it was dismissed by the Israelis as they thought the plans were far too ambitious and beyond the operational scope of Hamas.

They were wrong on both counts.

The audacity of the blueprint, officials said, made it easy to underestimate. All militaries write plans that they never use, and Israeli officials assessed that, even if Hamas invaded, it might muster a force of a few dozen, not the hundreds who ultimately attacked.

Israel had also misread Hamas’s actions. The group had negotiated for permits to allow Palestinians to work in Israel, which Israeli officials took as a sign that Hamas was not looking for a war.

But Hamas had been drafting attack plans for many years, and Israeli officials had gotten hold of previous iterations of them. What could have been an intelligence coup turned into one of the worst miscalculations in Israel’s 75-year history.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744043#Comment_121744043

Yet you are happy to spread misinformation when it suits your position. You also double down rather than admit you were wrong about the ICJ in your discussion with another poster. Either you don't realise what you are doing or you are being disingenous as you don't want to admit you are wrong to the other side. So it's all a bit rich of you to lecture others about spreading misinformation when you are more than happy to do it yourself. I realise you will continue in the same vein, but you are not hoodwinking anyone who is capable of being objective.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743876#Comment_121743876

It's almost as if they were deliberately provoking a response, got what they wanted and suppressed the intelligence about it so they could then over-react and clean out the Palestinians en-masse.

This is pure conjecture by the way.

It's like the old 9/11 conspiracy.

a) it was an inside job at the behest of the Military Industrial Complex

or

b) the Americans knew exactly what was to occur but let it happen cause again, for the Military Industrial Complex

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743861#Comment_121743861

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743330#Comment_121743330

Case in point...

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744151#Comment_121744151

Same as the conspiracy of UNWRA teahcing anti-semitism in schools. Has there ever been evidence provided for this kind of stuff?

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743953#Comment_121743953

Israeli intelligence leak details extent of warnings over Hamas attack | Israel | The Guardian

They were Israel's 'eyes on the border' - but their Hamas warnings went unheard - BBC News

Just a few news reports.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744151#Comment_121744151

You talk as if the US is some independent country that would put a stop to another zionist land grab or yet another dictatorially minded leader trying to cling to power through bloodshed. There is an election comming up in the US and the Jews there outnumber those in Israel about 2:1.

Hawkeye123

Congrats to Israel for beating Ireland in basketball. The better team won.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743992#Comment_121743992

The US had all sorts of warnings before 9/11 too - does that mean that Bush Jr knew about it - or worse, that he wanted it because it allowed him to launch the war that his father "didn't finish"? That's what happened as a result of 9/11, after all. It also probably gave him a second term in office.

That would all make sense, on a conspiracy-level reading of events. However I think it's nonsense, and I think it's equally nonsense to believe that Israeli intelligence, much less Netanyahu, wanted Oct 7th.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744027#Comment_121744027

I agree with the first part of that. Not sure about the last.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744242#Comment_121744242

I'm still waiting for the evidence that 10% of the UNWRA staff are Hamas members. Seeing how significant UNWRA are for feeding and sheltering Palestinians, a serious allegation like that should be backed up.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744087#Comment_121744087

Again, instead of attacking the source why don't you try and reumfute the evidence?

Because I have a life.

No, I am serious.

If I spent my time digging through all your Tweets from QNN or Jonathan Hinkle or some other such Twitter account, I wouldn't have time for anything else.

That is why fake news, disinformation and misinformation is so dangerous.

It is very easy to make up some **** and tweet it. It is even easier to find something on Twitter and repost it, even though it's a complete lie. But the effort that goes into fact-checking, cross-referencing and verifying something is false takes a huge amount of time and effort.

That is why governments around the world are grabbling with this issue, from MAGA Trump crap, to 'Russia is great' crap, to 'anti-vax' crap, to climate denier nonsense, to 'Isreal is evil' crap...

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/coming-flood-disinformation#:~:text=Disinformation%E2%80%94the%20deliberate%20spread%20of,become%20a%20partisan%2C%20politicized%20issue.

Disinformation—the deliberate spread of false or misleading information—was never the sole domain of foreign actors, but its use by domestic politicians and grifters has ballooned in recent years. And yet the country has been unable to rein it in because the very subject has become a partisan, politicized issue.

The rise of grifters using rage and emotion to make money is a new phenomenon, and your re-posting of those tweets is an example of why this is effective. Its an emotional response, not a logical or rational one.

So, the only thing I can really do is point out that the accounts you are using are nefarious, and not to be trusted. If you continue to use them as a source of 'news' well that is on you, but suffice to say you don't care that you are spreading disinformation and making the problem worse for discourse not better.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744137#Comment_121744137

Not true at all. I have never spread misinformation.

The ICJ made a deliberate point of order regarding the hostages and Hamas. This is a fact.

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

They have called on Hamas to immediately release the hostages without any pre-condition. This is a fact.

The taking of civilians as hostages is a war crime. This is not up for debate, it's a fact.

“Hostage-taking and the abduction of civilians are prohibited by international law and are war crimes.

https://www.amnesty.ie/israel-hamas-hostages/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CHostage%2Dtaking%20and%20the%20abduction,Callamard%2C%20Amnesty%20International's%20Secretary%20General.

If people want to dance on a pinhead in regards to this I wonder then if they are really worried about Human Rights or do they just want to get one up on Israel.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744242#Comment_121744242

No conspiracy at all.

It appears that there is plenty of evidence to support that allegation.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-finds-incitement-antisemitism-still-prevalent-in-unrwa-classrooms/

The report can be found here.

https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf

Foreign Policy has an article here from 2021 discussing the issues with UNRWA, from its very loose financial booking keeping to the content it teaches in the classroom.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/05/unrwa-palestine-israel-refugees-united-states-funding-corruption-education/

Nearly 60 percent of UNRWA’s roughly $1 billion annual budget is allocated to education programs which claim to teach children values of peace, tolerance, and nonviolent conflict resolution. Yet according to various studies of the Palestinian curriculum, which is taught by UNRWA in the Palestinian territories, the agency is falling far short of that goal. Textbooks depict Jews as enemies of Islam, glorify so-called martyrs who have died while committing terror attacks, and promote jihad for the liberation of historic Palestine, including areas firmly within Israel’s pre-1967 borders, such as Jaffa and Haifa. Maps of the region do not include the state of Israel, which throughout the curriculum is referred to as “the Zionist Occupation.”

A comprehensive report released in June, financed by the European Union and conducted by the Georg Eckert Institute for International Textbook Research, examined 172 Palestinian textbooks used in UNRWA schools. It found “ambivalent—sometimes hostile—attitudes toward Jews and the characteristics they attribute to the Jewish people,” noting “frequent use of negative attributions in relation to the Jewish people in, for example, textbook exercises [that] suggest a conscious perpetuation of anti-Jewish prejudice, especially when embedded within the current political context.”

The problems with UNRWA and anti-semitism being taught to kids in schools has been one that has been going on for years.

It needs to stop. It amounts to child abuse and grooming.

Hamas loves it of course as it guarantees the next generation of willing volunteers.

I hope you now agree that this is not a conspiracy but an actual issue and a real problem.

Toeuptony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743783#Comment_121743783

Are you happy to believe all of the updates coming from the IDF and the Israeli govt?

If yes, then you can say nothing about the validity of the information coming from any other sources.

Also, the post you referred to above shows the minister herself making the claim, not QNN, so you are saying that you dispute the direct claim by the minister in that case. Why do you dispute her claim?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744268#Comment_121744268

I am not even sure where to begin with that, so I won't start..

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744452#Comment_121744452

WSJ had an article on it. Perhaps read it first.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744097#Comment_121744097

In fairness they couldnt afford the fine, and this is probably better in that circumstance to turn up and not shake their hands.

I doubt the Israeli player will be fined for insulting Ireland in their interview before the match which is a disgrace.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744601#Comment_121744601

It only references teaching kids hate and teachers being in a whatsapp group that celebrated the attacks. That falls way short of evidence of being a Hamas member.