Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752165#Comment_121752165

Donald, the North is about as far from the middle east as you can get in situation like this. We have peace now Thank God, and the Catholic / Protestant divide are living with each other in the North. In the middle east, that's not possible because one side is Islamic and the other Jewish. No discussion about it, but what's happening in Palestine is terrible, and has to stop, end of story, but to my way of thinking, and I've lived in that part of the world, its all happening against the wider backdrop of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims being removed from the middle east generally. Even if there was peace there in the morning, you will still have this hatred of non-Muslims. Because it's something that Islam teaches, from childhood.

NoMoreDonegalTuesdays

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752966#Comment_121752966

I'd wager it won't. Russia is the only country Israel fears and tiptoes around. Russia fears Israel too. They seem to have a sort of madman theory doctrine towards each other, and both are mad. It's not something I've studied in depth but it seems to me there is probably significant overlap between Russia and Israel in terms of criminality - both at the top and at lower levels. As well as there being a huge Russian diaspora in Israel.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753092#Comment_121753092

The point JM, was about the conditions in which these groups can prosper. Those conditions are universal and not restricted to any geographical or religious parameter.

I would say good luck to you if your mission was to go into an average secondary school in Dublin today and get 50 16-year olds to get off their iphones and tiktok and pledge themselves to becoming soldiers for the upcoming fight to the death against the British (which you tell them is coming)

Would it be easier for a Hamas recruiter to get a 16 year old in Gaza or Palestine as a whole? One would have to undoubtedly say yes.

That recruiter can point across the barbed wire fence at the place where the kid's grandfather was born, the stolen land where his ancestors had farmed for generations, and where some yank has built their nice new fancy house while he lives in a cramped hovel. The yank exercised a "right to return" to land that was never his. The kid has no such "right of return".

The kid who watched their brothers and sisters being killed and maimed. Their mother being shot in the head by a sniper. Being harassed and humiliated on the street daily by Israeli soldiers if they are lucky enough to live in the West Bank. The kid who has no future except to wait for the day when Israel kills him one way or the other. Directly or indirectly. Do you not agree that it would be easier to convince that kid to join your mission than the 16 year old in Dublin?

Or people might agree with those that think the reason the Palestinian kid is more likely to join those groups is because of some inherent inhumanity or sub-humanness. And despite what those people will try to deny, there is a large element of truth to me saying that. Because they think that deep down.

As regards teaching of hatred, there are plenty of videos proudly showing classrooms of Israeli kids boasting that when they grow up they will kill arabs.

https://www.facebook.com/DAILYSABAH/videos/israeli-students-say-they-want-to-kill-arabs-as-teacher-promotes-hatred/1019595848197507/

Those kids grow up, they give them machine guns and sniper rifles and let them know there will be no consequences for anything they do on a Palestinian. What else is going to happen.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752855#Comment_121752855

I'm not surprised at all.

But it does seem like a lot of Irish people have realised there's no difference between the two parties in the US when it comes to foreign matters.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753145#Comment_121753145

You only have to look at the current impasse over the Ukrainian aid package to realise there is a great deal of difference between the two parties.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753046#Comment_121753046

But you agree you have no personal experience of Northern Ireland, and in fact come from a country where Sinn Fein representatives were silenced on government media? Long before the British did: Thatcher copied that idea straight from RTE, and said so openly.

So maybe don't bother lecturing those of us who do have personal experience of Northern Ireland about it?

Because you clearly don't have a clue really.

(For example - and it's just one way in which the two situations are very different, well, two really) the IRA never called itself "Catholic Resistance" and never wanted to destroy the whole of the United Kingdom in order to install a Catholic Regime over the whole of the British Isles.)

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753167#Comment_121753167

Do you think does your own background influences your apparently blind, unquestioning and unconditional support of Israel? Was it ingrained in you from a young age by any chance? Did you or your neighbours fly Israeli flags outside your houses or on your estate?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753181#Comment_121753181

Absolutely not. As you said yourself, the support of Israel was traditionally a loyalist position. I'm from a nationalist background.

And my support is neither blind nor unquestioning. That's you.

That's why I don't expect you to be able to see how someone from my background can possibly have come to a reasoned support for the state of Israel: because your position is a kneejerk one, so you think that's what everyone else has done too.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753186#Comment_121753186

That's fair enough. It just seems very strange to me that you would be on the side of the occupier force harassing one section of a population while only being interested in "protecting" the other side.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753190#Comment_121753190

I could tell you lots of stories about what it's really like to grow up with the IRA and their henchmen in power. But you would just call it a rant.

I know what it's like to have paramilitaries in a position of power. And Israel, for all its faults, is a democracy. Hamas is not, and doesn't want a democracy.

What Hamas wants - and they say so openly - is an islamic state. And they're happy to commit murder, including of other Palestinians, to get that. They've done it before and they'll do it again. That's worse than what the IRA ever claimed to want.

So this notion that the two situations are parallels is a dangerous one: they do have parallels, but not ones that should make people support Hamas as a sort of "our team vs your team " thing. But that's what a number of people in Ireland are doing.

I understand why it happens in NI - because the political split there means it is a "team" for many. 'Unionists fly the Israeli flag, so we'll fly the Palestinian one' and vice versa. But it's so dumb of people in the south to unthinkingly do the same thing, when they so unthinkingly did the exact opposite for years. Sheep mentality. Can't you ever think for yourselves?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753197#Comment_121753197

Well if you'd have been calling for, and happy with, the British similarly periodically "mowing the lawn" in Nationalist areas, then at least you'd be consistent.

The way the Israeli's think of, and portray, the savage Palestinians is the same as how the British though of the Irish for a long time.

I won't ask you your thoughts on Bloody Sunday in Derry. If you are consistent with your position vis-a-vis the IDF and Palestinian civilians, we'd know your answer anyway.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753211#Comment_121753211

I've never said anything of that sort, so maybe stop attributing stuff to me that I haven't said?

As for Bloody Sunday - when you can show me where the IRA, or nationalist civilians, went into the Waterside and murdered protestant women and children, thus provoking Bloody Sunday as a response, then your comparison will be relevant.

See, that's the sort of comment that shows me that you don't understand anything about Northern Ireland, but are just believing the current fashionable version which is that Sinn Fein were up at the front fighting for civil rights in 1969. They weren't. Sinn Fein didn't exist back then, and the IRA weren't around to defend anyone when the police were actually attacking nationalist civilians.

That's all a myth they've built up since then. Look up "IRA - I Ran Away" to see how much use the IRA ever were to us.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752908#Comment_121752908

Oh this, BTW: you are joking when you try to imply that if Israel did not exist, that Palestine would be a stable democracy? Aren't you?

One of approximately zero in that part of the world - right?

Well, except for Israel, which actually is a democracy.

If Israel did not exist, statistically the likelihood is that Palestine would be an authoritarian hellhole. Quite possibly with a latent or open civil war between Muslim and/or tribal factions. That's what the other similar countries around it are like, after all.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753213#Comment_121753213

Now now. Show me where the Palestinian toddlers went in and attacked Israeli's. The paras said they were shot at first. There were IRA in the area and therefore the people shot were collateral damage. The same as it is ok to blow up 80 people in a strike on a market in Jabalia because the IDF say there was a militant in the vicinity.

How about the images of the woman holding the white flag and her child who is shot by the sniper? Did we see similar images from Derry on Bloody Sunday? If one is ok, then surely so must the other be? Or do I detect some inconsistency?

Before:

After (You can check the video to see the blood soaked white flag on his chest):

Is it that different to this?

As the rise of the Troubles was not linked to environmental conditions, there must have been some other reason. It is purely coincidental that the problem really kicked off around the same times as civil rights protest. Perhaps it was something genetic in the people that led them to joining and supporting the paramilitaries.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753237#Comment_121753237

Grand. It's ok to annihilate them so. It's not a genocide to kill them all once we know that they probably wouldn't have had a democracy even if their oppression didn't make it de facto impossible.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753266#Comment_121753266

Who is here in this thread explicitly calling to kill them all?

Argue with the points made, not a strawman.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752880#Comment_121752880

lol.

“Those people don’t have a democracy and therefore they do not deserve to live”

literally the only person saying that on boards is you.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753046#Comment_121753046

The point actually began with you blaming Israel for preventing Palestinians voting. When it was pointed out that you were wrong you deflected to pretending I didn’t understand the situation in the North rather than having the good grace to admit you were wrong.

Again, lots to criticise Israel for but Hamas not holding elections isn’t one of them.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753266#Comment_121753266

More straw men from you.

When you're prepared to argue what I've said, and not what you wish I'd said, I'll be happy to continue the discussion. Not until then though.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751634#Comment_121751634

israel has full security.

hamas can't end anything as this genocide isn't about hamas but about stealing land on the basis of self-entitlement, for which there is nothing hamas could do to stop it.

Toeuptony

https://twitter.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1756662630473687359?t=-lDTTNKntGLfnXZXzDWDmA&s=19

Such blind hatred of a people who are barely coping in disastrous conditions.

TinyMuffin

Scumbags. And shooting to prevent them been helped.

https://x.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1756675499340816478?s=20

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753535#Comment_121753535

Iron Dome says no, Israel doesn't have full security - if it did, I'd be unnecessary.

Hamas can surrender.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754041#Comment_121754041

israel has full security, the iron dome which mostly fails exists so as to create an illusion of a security problem so israel can play the victim.

hamas can't surrender as there is nobody for them to surrender to nor is there a situation where surrender would be required or could exist as this is a genocide and not a legitimate war.

nothing hamas would or could do, would stop the religiously, self-entitled, greedy motivated genocide.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754131#Comment_121754131

There was no "genocide" of Gazans before Oct 7th, even assuming what's happened since then is one.

So to stop the alleged genocide, all they had to do was not kill and kidnap Israeli civilians.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754131#Comment_121754131

Iron dome mostly fails - uhuh. As we've discussed here before, do tell how those rockets are 'firecrackers' as you've said before.

Hamas can surrender. Only in your fantasies is there no one to surrender to.

As for the genocide you describe, you've exactly described Hamas's actions, religious, greed motivated, self-entitled to sacrifice their fellow Gazans. Nicely done.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754148#Comment_121754148

there was a drip drip ethnic cleansing of gazans with the intent of genocide for decades before october 7th, and october 7th does not justify genocide, which is what the current slaughter in gaza by the terrorist state of israel amounts to.

to stop the actual, proven genocide, all they had to do was nothing, there is no justification for genocide and the over the top reaction to what was a preventable but deliberately allowed to happen terrorist attack, wouldn't be justified by that terrorist attack.

what would be justified is special forces raids and bombing actual rocket launch sites rather then makey uppy ones.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754162#Comment_121754162

the genocide is fact.

my description applies to israel, hamas are just a militarily weak ineffective terrorist organisation who are fighting a brutal apartheid blockade and occupation.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754195#Comment_121754195

There is no genocide, fitting the word in multiple times does not make it so.

It remains one of the smaller conflicts in the last 20 years.

Special forces raids, ffs.

As always hamas can end the fighting today if it so chooses same as it could any day in previous months.

It refuses to do so.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754195#Comment_121754195

This seems a theory that's stretched to breaking point: is ethnic cleansing now just another word for large scale emigration? And weren't Gazans being prevented from leaving by those evil Israelis anyway - so how were they simultaneously ethnically cleansing them?

But if they were, then presumably we northerners were also being ethnically cleansed back when one of the reasons for refusing jobs and housing to catholics was to encourage emigration so that the inbuilt loyalist majority remained intact?

But then if so, who was ethnically cleansing all the Irish from the south who were emigrating at the same or higher rates at the same time? Or is it grand when people leave due to poverty? In which case, who says the Gazans were leaving because of Israeli policies rather than Hamas running the place into the ground with their determination to build tunnels to destroy Israel instead of building an economy?

Israel had thousands of Palestinian workers crossing the border every day to work in Israel. Doesn't sound very "ethnically cleansing" does it? Giving Palestinians work that allowed them to marry and have homes and families in Gaza?

And then there's the biggest problem with your claim: the Palestinian population has been undergoing a massive population boom for decades. Compare that to the world Jewish population which took over 70 years to get back up to the numbers of Jews in the whole world after the Holocaust.

To sum up: if the Israelis are trying to commit genocide, they're pretty damn sh1t at it. You'd think they'd have learned from the best?

Or maybe... claiming that Jews are now committing genocide themselves is an anti semitic lie that bears no resemblance to reality, and is deliberately being used because it's the most hateful thing that can be alleged about a people who were the victims of a genuine attempt at genocide?