Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768107#Comment_121768107

You realise that first paragraph equally applies to the IDF, and more so as it was the IDF that murdered them…

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765908#Comment_121765908

I didn't see any evidence of what you stated that person did? Perhaps that was the wrong quote.

I googled his name but there was no report of him being anything other than a journalist.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768206#Comment_121768206

So, do tell how many Hamas has ensured got to safety during this conflict. Any? Whether it was murder remains to be seen - easy to accuse, harder to prove during wartime.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768236#Comment_121768236

were there IEDs in the sheep? Where the people with the white flag armed or being used as human shields?

nachouser

Ah, I'm sure the stun grenades were on one hip, the actual grenades on another and he just had a leftie-rightie moment.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765938#Comment_121765938

They've already killed 30,000 plus. I think another 10 or 20 k wouldn't phase them at all.

Are you saying "Isreal will try though" or am I misreading you?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766457#Comment_121766457

It would be nicer if Israel stopped it's genocide

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768270#Comment_121768270

Nothing can be proven, like murder, without due diligence. Which can happen, should the fighting cease.

How do you propose stopping it? Israel unilaterally stops attacking, what do you suppose Hamas will do? Will they stop launching rockets? Will they cease their attacks, they're regrouping and attacking in the North of Gaza afaik.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768318#Comment_121768318

I've given several proposals like: releasing their hostages, ending the apartheid, stop raping kids in lockup, stop treating Palestinians in the occupied territories like prisoners, and you can include not adhering to the commandment in their scripture to "smite amalek" including by name, the slaying of sheep. And don't kill people waving the white flag of surrender. Leveling everything that's taller than a shoebox isn't how you build lasting peace with your permanent neighbors.

You weren't meant to seriously think there was an actual plausible reason why those sheep were slain or why those civilians surrendering were murdered in cold blood. Can you articulate a reasonable suspicion? Because IEDs in the sheep was facetious satire.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768236#Comment_121768236

I haven’t seen much if any from either side. You can condemn both sides you know. And yes, the IDF murdered that family’s parents. They didn’t murder themselves.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768330#Comment_121768330

None of those proposals require Hamas to do anything different. How do you think. Like, where's "stop launching rockets?" "Turn over the leadership responsible for October 7th" things like that.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768334#Comment_121768334

It's war. Murder is hard to prove. That's the sad reality of warfare; especially with a breaking news story.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767069#Comment_121767069

Do you think there'll be a Gaza in the morning?

And just a reminder - Netanyahu allowed the funding of Hamas for his political goals.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768345#Comment_121768345

With all due respect, there’s plenty of example of the IDF murdering civilians. They murdered their own three who were held hostage by Hamas and managed to escape. Outside of IDF personnel I can’t find any info on people murdered by Hamas since Oct 7th, it’s now four months since that awful day hence you’ll currently see a lot more being called out about the IDF as there’s daily examples never mind including the West Bank. Over 400 have been murdered there.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768338#Comment_121768338

Oh good point:

Israel should stop bombing children

Israel should turn over its leadership to the Hague.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767938#Comment_121767938

Mug wanted for pile on.

dmcdona

Ceasefire talks carry on.

Hostage families accuse IDF of sacrificing the lives of their loved ones and go to The Hague

Silence from the US on whether Netanyahu is an honest broker (of course he isn't)

And Deja vu in Lebanon

Haaretz:

The Hostage and Missing Families Forum said they will protest in front of the Defense Ministry HQ in Tel Aviv on Thursday against "the decision to sacrifice the lives of the hostages."

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called on Hamas to secure a hostage release deal with Israel to spare the Palestinian people further "catastrophe," the official Palestinian new agency WAFA reported.

U.S. National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby declined to answer whether U.S. President Joe Biden believes PM Netanyahu is an honest broker, focusing instead on their their decades-long relationship and ability to speak candidly with one another.

Louis Har and Fernando Merman, the two hostages rescued from Hamas captivity Tuesday, were discharged from Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer. The hospital reported that "signs of captivity are visible on their bodies and emotional state."

A delegation of family members of hostages being held in Gaza is at The Hague to file a complaint at the International Criminal Court against Hamas. "It's time justice is done," they said.

A woman and two children were killed in the strikes on a village in southern Lebanon, two security sources told Reuters, and at least seven other people wounded.

dmcdona

This is an odd one. I recall Israeli stating that as regards the Settlers, they would bring them to justice if found to have committed crimes.

So why is Israel afraid?

Israel fears that other countries will join the U.S., Britain and France in imposing sanctions on settlers involved in violence against Palestinians, a diplomatic source told Haaretz, adding that Paris' decision not to wait for a European Union decision on the matter could now encourage other EU countries to take similar steps.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768345#Comment_121768345

Tell that to the family of the six year old in the car for three hours on the phone to the Red Crescent - living the last three hours of her life in terror. Or to the two medics shredded just as they got to her.

Scrub the family bit - 5 of them were already dead in the car with her whilst she waited for help.

Thats the sad reality of genocide and war crimes - not war.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767220#Comment_121767220

You obviously don't understand the term "whataboutery" - it requires an unconnected issue. The Hamas attacks and the kidnappings are why Israel attacked Gaza.

By your logic, somebody complaining about Berlin being run by foreigners in 1945 would be perfectly entitled to shout "whataboutery" if the answer given was "Because the Nazis".

Which would be ridiculous. As is the attempt to do the same here.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768516#Comment_121768516

It'll be ignored but on the off chance it's not no doubt we'll get some casual, glib dismissal of the fact that a small child spent her last moments alive in terror surrounded by her dead family before being killed.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768538#Comment_121768538

'It's war, can't prove war crimes in war'

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768345#Comment_121768345

So how are you actually sure it's been proven that Hamas carried out October 7th? Step out of your foxhole.

IDF posts videos of itself comitting war crimes though: 'we just can't be sure, sad'

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768582#Comment_121768582

What Hamas did was a terrorist attack. Soon as their leaders are turned over, war crimes can be tried (rape, dismemberment, murder). There is evidence being gathered about this attack. The tragedy of that family that Sky reported on, is just not evidence yet. It's a news report. And it's disgusting.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767525#Comment_121767525

If that is allowed to happen (Hamas rebuilt) the cycle of violence will continue.

Whilst it's impossible to remove the ideology, the ability to attack Israel must be removed.

This can only end if both the Israelis and Palestinians are assured of security and peace between them.

It will require intermediaries.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768602#Comment_121768602

What Hamas did was a terrorist attack. 

But that hasn't been proven. Apply your standard evenly.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768608#Comment_121768608

Christ is this the level now? What would you call it, a birthday celebration?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768602#Comment_121768602

There were posts here along the lines of "there is little evidence on the alleged rapes on Oct 7th". Those posts were pilloried by all and sundry. And to be crystal clear, those posts did not state rapes or sexual violence did not happen. Just that there was no corroborated evidence.

I might be misreading you but are you saying those rapes etc on Oct 7th are "alleged" and cannot be proven until tried in court?

As an aside, Zaka took video "evidence" of the massacre, the bodies of victims, the destruction etc. They then used that footage to raise funds for themselves.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768533#Comment_121768533

Ironically, the term first came into use in relation to Northern Ireland. You possibly weren't aware of that. It arose because when someone from "one side" was taken to task about something that happened, they would respond with "whatabout" something the "other side" had done.

For example, hypothetically if the IRA had just killed 30k+ loyalist women and kids and a spokesperson or connected politician was asked about it, they would invariably respond with "whatabout the loyalists killing all those people in the pub yesterday".

I guess one can always revert to an ad-hoc a-la-carte approach of deciding what is and isn't "connected" depending on what suits their agenda at the time. If you were on "team IRA" you could say they were definitely connected because they were part of the same conflict, whereas if you were on "team UDA" you could say they were separate incidents and it was pure whataboutery.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768651#Comment_121768651

Is that what the slaying of the sheep was? A birthday celebration?

It's unfortunate that Israeli apologism would stoop so low as to throw its hands up in the air and say 'it just can't be proven' to matters that would otherwise go unchallenged, except, lo, the allegations are leveled at Israel, the Most Moral Army in the World TM.

What do you call the murder of people waving white flags? Or would you just decline to answer?