Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768752#Comment_121768752

So you wont admit it was terrorism.

Good to clarify.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768781#Comment_121768781

How can we admit what hasn't been proven under the standard applied used to excuse the IDF from murders?

Haven't seen you admit that what Israel is doing is committing war crimes. Clarify that please.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768737#Comment_121768737

You're doing it again. Yes I'm aware of the term in relation to Northern Ireland, and the issues weren't actually connected: one side has a grievance, and the other side has another, unrelated grievance: we can commit crimes because you committed other crimes. That's whataboutery.

In this case though, the issues are directly related. There was no IDF presence in Gaza until Hamas attacked. It's not whataboutery to link Israel's actions in Gaza with Oct 7th. Because the two events are directly linked.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768786#Comment_121768786

Well there's the fact that Hamas claim themselves to be holding those captives in Gaza. Do you think they are lying?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768819#Comment_121768819

I don't think Israel is lying either when it says it has thousands of Palestinians in lockup, or begrudgingly admitting it has a problem with prisoners being raped in their prisons.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768781#Comment_121768781

I think you missed the point of that post entirely, or you've decided to intentionally misconstrue it.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766010#Comment_121766010

Any chance of a withdrawal of the claims or at least present a valid source?

@Danzy

Overheal

The same rational, critical thinking approach that allows me to conclude what happened on the 7th was an abhorrent act of mass terrorism, also allows me to see that what Israel is doing in response, is Genocide.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass"

I wish more people who are so sure of command and control centers under every bakery and school and home without the sufficient evidence were as willing to admit what Israel is conducting here is a genocide.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767657#Comment_121767657

Smug remarks won't answer the question. No response to the glaring hypocrisy of Israel not releasing any of their 'administrative detainees' then?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768799#Comment_121768799

As I said, and anticipated, one can of course take an ad-hoc a-la-carte approach to deciding what is and isn't connected in order to suit themselves.

If one group in a fictitious place, lets call it Northern Island, kills a group of people in a pub on Monday and in retaliation the second group explodes a bomb on the Wednesday, then the second group cannot go on about the Monday incident as we have decided it suits us to dismiss it as unconnected and therefore "whataboutery".

Whereas in another fictitious place, let's call is Philipstine, if one group does something on October 7th, then if the other group goes on a genocidal rampage, then there is no maximum length of time the the second one can say "whatabout" what happened on October 7th without it being whataboutery. They can keep milking it even 4 months and 30k+ murdered later.

Perfectly logical and consistent. As always.

nachouser

Chucking a grenade into a civilian home. Let that sink in. Just think about it. When you go to work tomorrow. Just think about someone chucking a grenade your way.

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769026#Comment_121769026

He did outline his plans to "make room" for the expansion of the German people in mein kampf, he also had a very antisemitic stance. He marched all over Europe but never pretended that it was self defence. Unlike the pretence stance of the "defenseless Israelis."

Did you smash it

My view of the Israel vs Arab conflict when you break it down- one side has been winning the war for 75 years. One side has been losing the war for 75 years. The side that is losing isn’t prepared to accept that it is losing and make peace. The side that is winning is cruel but the side that is losing is stupid. There is no prospect of this situation being resolved. It could go on for another 20 years. It could go on for another 100 years.

roast me

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769248#Comment_121769248

And kept all the most arable land for themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Israel

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769248#Comment_121769248

1947/48 doesn’t matter anymore in my opinion. It’s an irrelevance.

But assuming it’s not an irrelevance, the 6% won the war and won every major flashpoint in the region….for 75 years. And still the Arab side think it’s peace treaties that will get them no where. The war is a catastrophe but all loss of life in the war since maybe 1980 is a catastrophe. Because it was all needless and pointless since the war’s outcome was fixed since around that time or earlier.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769280#Comment_121769280

way earlier.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/red-line

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769000#Comment_121769000

I do believe so. It's no a co-incidence IMO that both Russia and Hamas are allies of Iran, and that Iran is funnelling weapons to both for the explicit purpose of use against civilians in Western-style democracies. Nor that the 7th of October is Putler's birthday. Nor that there have been meetings directly between Russian and Hamas leadership. Nor that this attack has successfully divided Western attention from Russia's genocidal war in Ukraine - something I am certain Hamas would have understood and taken into account as an Iranian puppet.

Even if you don't like Israel, intellectual consistency requires recognition that it's in the same position as Ukraine, Guyana, South Korea, Taiwan etc, with each to some degree sharing a common, unified enemy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769248#Comment_121769248

The 1947 UN Partition plan called for mostly worthless desert to be given to the new Jewish state. Much of that 55% comprises of the Negev desert, which was virtually uninhabited. Again, the founders of Israel accepted the '47 partition plan (even if there were some reservations).

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769299#Comment_121769299

Can you apply the "intellectual consistency" doctrine of yours to Israel's open-face plans to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip? Can you apply it and recognize what's happening as genocide or will we get another hand wringing about population density per square kilometer?

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israels-far-right-plots-a-new-gaza-without-palestinians-8563a08d

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768970#Comment_121768970

What rabbit hole did you climb down?

Why don't Hamas just give up? And why don't Palestinians ever criticise Hamas? If Hamas just surrendered and freed the hostages, this war would be over.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769439#Comment_121769439

The war might end, the apartheid state wouldn't, the stealing of homes/land wouldn't, the oppression of the Palestinian people wouldnt, the kidnapping/jailing of innocent men, women and children wouldn't.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769439#Comment_121769439

Muslims believe in a good afterlife and often don't view death as a bad thing.

Timberrrrrrrr

More israeli scumbaggery

Hospital in Khan Yunis bombed killing one person.

It's genocide

https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1758054743757168906?t=bxaPFsuog-nkT0fbpRaj8w&s=19

chewed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769781#Comment_121769781

Yeah but there were was probably Hamas in there somewhere 😐️

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767546#Comment_121767546

And you didn't address a single point I made.

The vast majority of people do not support Israel in this conflict. they see 30k civilians dead and are disgusted. Likewise they don't support Hamas. they see the attack that Hamas committed and are disgusted.

In a bigger picture, over a longer time frame I'd say most Irish people are pro palestinian. They want to see an end to israeli apartheid and occupation.

At the moment there are bombs dropping in Gaza. They are dropping every day. Every day more and more civilians are being killed indiscriminately. Every day more and more people starve because Israel blocks aid from entering Gaza. people see this and are disgusted by the ongoing relentless killing of Gazans. And they want it to stop. And when they say this, there's a certain cohort that go "what about the hostages".

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768533#Comment_121768533

No. Whatabouttery is a distraction. Whatabouttery is about trying to excuse the faults of one side by pointing at the faults of the other. Rather than addressing an accusation, it's about making a counter accusation. So I say israel should stop bombing civilians and someone goes "What about the hostages". Yes, hostages should be released, but by bringing up the hostages, it's removing the focus from the bombing of civilians. Or it's trying to justify blowing up a family of Palestinian civilians because some other people kidnapped some people.

Another example.... In the north when someone brings up an IRA atrocity, the IRA's defenders will bring up something that a unionist paramilitary did. Yes, they're all part of the same conflict but just because one side did something horrible, doesn't detract from the horrible things the other side did. The IRA are no less to blame for the killing of innocent people because some unionists also killed some innocent people.

I have no issues calling out both Israel, more specifically the israeli government, and Hamas for their killing of innocent civilians.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768861#Comment_121768861

Gonna assume the answer is no. Between these claims and the idea October 7th was a birthday present for Putin, I think some people should really assess their sources and quality of the content being presented.

Timberrrrrrrr

Should have been done weeks ago.

The leaders of Canada, Australia and New Zealand called for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1757981824788086952?t=ZtsK7dsvamvjxvNoCO9VzA&s=19

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767069#Comment_121767069

Palestine is also the West Bank

So by extension Bibi and his ilk is Israel using your logic as he has dominated Israeli politics for decades and been leader for much of that time

This is the guy that was happy to prop up Hamas to stifle the PA. Of course this assertion is just as inaccurate as you saying all Palestinians are in favour of Hamas. Many of the civilians killed didn't vote for Hamas .

The few that have tried to speak out against Hamas have been severely dealt with. It's easy for us to say Palestinians should just depose of them from the comfort of Ireland. This is not to say they don't have support in In Gaza, just as Irgun terrorists had support among Israelis, some of them went on to become leaders in the state of Israel.

As we see also in more recent times the Likud and far right terrorists obviously have enough support in Israel to be in government. The terrorists on both sides need to be removed. You won't agree with that characterisation of course, but far right ministers have excused and encouraged Settlers terrorism in the West Bank. If they had their way the carnage in Gaza would be even worse

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767432#Comment_121767432

My mistake. I see that now you referring to another poster when you agreed with Iscreamkone. I agree the likes of Iran, Saudi Arabia are not pleasant regimes. Objections to US foreign Policy over the years doesn't mean you should throw in your lot with their enemies