Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231937#Comment_121231937

1500 Hamas fighters bodies have been recovered inside Israel. Not as a result of the bombing in Gaza. Those are additional, mostly civilians.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow

hymenelectra

It's time for europe to distance itself from this crackpot stuff.

It's never going to end as it is, and the more and more the populations of these places increase in Europe, the more and more we are going to directly pay. Just for one tiny example, a school teacher in france murdered on Friday.

Or else go all in we'll take charge of the place like they're misbehaved children.

One or the other, but enough of Europeans dying indiscriminately and directly because of looney tunes on a different continent.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232058#Comment_121232058

Blinken literally stood beside Netanyahu in a press conference yesterday and said two things:

• Israel has the right to defend itself
• Israel must abide by international law

The second one is key.

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232040#Comment_121232040

The undisputable fact is that the country of Israel is on Palestinian land.

That doesn't mean anything. Palestinian territory was mandated by the British. . Before that is was Ottoman Empire land. Before that it was Roman land who named it Philistina. Before that it was Judea.

The 1948 war wasn't Arab vs migrating Jews. Its was civil war against those already living on the territory. You don't actually believe impoverished Jews Fleeing Hitler were able to fight a war against the local Arab and win do you? Well , thats what a lot of people believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

nonyabidness23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232009#Comment_121232009

Do explain how Israel a nuclear armed state is going to be annihilated?

The reality is Israel could have drove out the terrorists and sealed the boarder again and increased security. That would result in alot less dead jews that what a ground invasion is going to cost them and would give them the complete moral high ground in any decisions to be made in future.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232058#Comment_121232058

Hamas is committing War Crimes on Gazans

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232098#Comment_121232098

• Israel must abide by international law

Or what?

They don't abide by international law and have never done.

What part of starving a populous is allowed in international law?

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231904#Comment_121231904

I'd be careful about everything Israel is putting out for the next few days and weeks. They will use every propaganda angle they possibly can to justify their murderous actions. You can take "unverified" sources from them to basically mean made up nonsense.

nonyabidness23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231990#Comment_121231990

You are obviously one of these wannabe rambo types.

There is nothing Ivory tower about calling for basic human needs to be met for civilians, anyone with a brain in there head knows hamas arent going without water, im sure if they managed to smuggle in 5000 rockets they brought food and supplies too.

Its the average joe and there children, the sick, the elderly ect that are getting the brunt of the lack of water and food not the terrorists.

You're a big man calling for the extremes to continue from the comfort of your own home.

taratee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231987#Comment_121231987

I think it's lose-lose for Israel though isn't it. If they stop attacking at this point, Hamas have won. It would be a huge victory for Hamas, and it'd act as a template for more attacks in the future. If they continue with the attack, thousand of innocent people will die, and they will be criticized for doing so. The good will and sympathy from the international community is not going to last forever.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232116#Comment_121232116

Both sides have broken international laws repeatedly.

The consequences for both are what we are currently watching

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232116#Comment_121232116

If Israel has to face action , so would the USA who have been engaging illegal warfare since the end of WW2. The brutal Democratic war machine has a way of convincing people they are the good guys.

Homelander

Still waiting for credible real world alternatives as to what Israel should be doing.

So far there's been no answers, with people basically skirting around saying "Israel should have done nothing".

We had one or two people suggest that the IDF should have just gone in on the ground. An army walking into a dense urban area with every aspect of Hamas intact, fortifications, tunnels, command centres, intelligence, etc.

That would be a bloodbath and I don't mean for IDF soldiers or Hamas fighters, I mean for civilians.

Civilian deaths are never OK or acceptable, and I don't think the vast majority of people ever felt differently, but they are inevitable in war as abhorrent as they are.

So what do people think Israel should have done in response? It's not a smart question but a genuine one.

It also comes from a position of not being pro-Israel, being deeply anti-Hamas, and holding a genuine acceptance that the Palestinian people have been suffering badly for decades.

I also think terms like "genocide" are being thrown around far too recklessly and causing the word to lose all meaning. I don't think anyone would argue that the number of Palestinian deaths since 1948 is acceptable, justified, or OK, nor are the conditions in Gaza.

But if Israel's plan is actually a genocide is must be a 1,000 year plan. More jews were killed in a a few weeks in Germany's extermination camps than Israel has killed in 70+ years. Again, that's not to take away anything from the plight of Palestinians, nor justify or excuse anything Israel is doing or has done, but a bit of perspective and real-world logic is needed here.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232102#Comment_121232102

Can you not think of a scenario in which Israel is attacked in circumstances under which it would be difficult to respond directly with nuclear weapons?

How does you use nuclear weapons if your own small territory has been infiltrated and over-run? If the enemy is near your own cities? 

This is not Russia with its vast expanses. 

This is not America or China who could lose a city with the population of Israel and carry on as a superpower.

This is not Britain with its island moat.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232104#Comment_121232104

But I think you will find a different entity is killing civilians in Gaza now. Perhaps both Israel and Hamas can commit war crimes.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232108#Comment_121232108

International law died a long time ago. They never even got a parking ticket for what they did, it's a wonder they have the nerve to show their faces in that region again.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232040#Comment_121232040

The undisputable fact is that the country of Israel is on Palestinian land.

It's highly disputable though. Claiming that your opinions are facts never gets you too far.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232148#Comment_121232148

Still waiting for credible real world alternatives as to what Israel should be doing.

I can't tell you what they should be doing.

But the UN is telling them shouldn't be starving 2 million people to death.

Is that real world enough for you?

hymenelectra

Israel is where it is because it was put there. It was put there to serve a function and it serves that function well. Chaos in the middle east is precisely what was going to happen.

If one were interested in peace solely, you'd move israel to some artifical island in the southern Atlantic and be done with it. Nobody would care or have beef with it.

So we should write that on a piece of paper, hand it to them as the last suggestion and peace out, God's speed, brush our hands of it all.

Europe as a matter of necessity needs to get its act together. No more creeping Muslim extremes seeping in, no more "freedom of religion" which is a byword for only one religion, a disentanglement of Jewish influence from European politics and just cut it all loose.

Yeah, some people made a bollvk of things generations ago. Well that was generations ago and it has nothing to do with us any more.

Long Sean Silver

The IDF fascist propaganda machine is releasing "accounts" of cannibalism having taken place by HAMAS. if this is true, then it is truly shocking and deserves condemnation by all right thinking people. we await further details.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232160#Comment_121232160

Why do Israel have nuclear weapons so?

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232102#Comment_121232102

That's it really — there are a lot of people proclaiming the virtue of the hard-man approach and criticising the so-called softly-softly approach of armchair hippies. But if one does want cold, hard realpolitik in all this, the reality is that last Saturday was the day when Israel had the chance to re-write the entire narrative of the conflict. The sheer level of bloodlust and savagery of the Hamas attack, outing themselves as the Islamist fanatic cultists that they are, was the most significant demonstration in the history of the conflict of the sincerity of Israel's concerns in defending its people.

The path they are choosing seems to do nothing but parade the values of the Western liberal order as a sham — and that might is right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232187#Comment_121232187

Many people arguing against Israel on the basis that they shouldn't enter Gaza because it will lead to civilian deaths, have no answer to how Israel should reasonably respond.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232148#Comment_121232148

Go after the Iranian leadership because that's the root cause of all of this. Go after Hamas funding. Take out Hamas leadership when they travel abroad (there is some in Dubai right now) etc... there's loads of options besides killing innocent children. Israel aren't dealing with the problem now either btw if that's what you think no more than invading Iraq dealt with the causes of 9/11 for the US. This is just Israel lashing out like the bullies they are and it won't solve the issue in fact it will have the complete opposite effect.

KilOit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232019#Comment_121232019

There's no point stopping now. Israel must clear all of Hamas out of Gaza, no point kicking the can down the road for another terrorist attack.

Every civilian death is the fault of Hamas, they will kill every Palestinian to get their way

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232187#Comment_121232187

I think everyone would agree with that. But it doesn't address the question about taking on Hamas militarily.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232194#Comment_121232194

It's so transparent what the IDF are doing it's actually pathetic. Before the day ends Hamas will be responsible for covid and climate change.

nonyabidness23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232160#Comment_121232160

Your own post explains it, America has 2 battlegroups stationed off the coast and has pledged there unwavering support.

No one is going to over run the IDF a small territory is easy to defend.

So anyone that commits to the attack risks there country being turned into a nuclear wasteland.

You should read about the samson option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232197#Comment_121232197

If Israel didn't have nuclear weapons and wasn't "backed by the US", it would have ceased to exist a long time ago - as another Holocaust would have been committed.

Banzai600

go watch CH4 news at 7pm last night, GRIM . They have a guy reporting from inside Gaza. In fact you should tune into their news every night. CH4 fired queasitons at Herzog last night too , got heated. Like all guerilla warfare, hamas wont be thwarted i dont think , it'll be the innocent ppl they hide behind who are being wiped out, like always.

But overall, this is sickening to watch and hear everything. Pretty soon , as in days, nobody will be able to put a count of the thousands of innocent dead in GAZA.

the US & UK atre stretched with UKRAINE/RUSSIA , Nth Korea / CHINA/ Taiwan etc.....and everything else going on. be careful what you bite off, but i thnk its too late for all that now.

I dont know how Iarael will root out hamas - hamas need to be held to account for last weekend,absolutely. but thats no reason for israel to keep the bombing the place into oblivion, almost there. on a quest for utter annihilation of the gaza strip - becuase thats what are are doing right now.

You cant kill over 2 million ppl to reach 110 thousand of hamas, i think is the number they reckon there are of hamas ? - if you think this is justified, take a look at yourself.

hymenelectra

Israel should get out of the middle east.

If I moved into an estate where every single household around me was out to murder me, I'd be gone.

Southern Atlantic, off you go, nobody would care.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232215#Comment_121232215

Can they not take them on but at least turn the water back on?

Can they stop bombing the one entrance that allows humanitarian aid in?

Can they stop blowing up ambulances?

You asked for alternatives. Israel have most of the choices here. To suggest they don't is not reality.

buzzerxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232209#Comment_121232209

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

ISRAEL SUPPORTS HAMAS:

"During Netanyahu’s fraud trial, writes Gidi Wewitz, the prime minister is quoted as declaring,

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” (Emphasis added.)"

Long Sean Silver

is it just me or does anyone else get the impression, they have somehow stumbled into somewhere like Broadmoor?

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232209#Comment_121232209

No they definitely aren't going to stop and they definitely will be seeing a massive uptick in terrorist style attacks in the future because of their actions now unfortunately.

And no every civilian death is the fault of Israeli terrorists, they are the ones dropping the bombs, missiles and white phosphorus on Gaza.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232148#Comment_121232148

Prioritise increased security and address the situation that allowed Hamas though in the first place.

Increased efforts into uncovering an cutting off supply chains for Hamas to limit the weaponary they can get into Gaza.

Recognise the need for civilian evacuation and support UN directives to allow for the greatest number of civilians possible to be removed from the Warzone prior to entering Gaza.

The above might not work, but at least a respects the idea that there are civilians that have the right to remove themselves from danger.

The idea that cutting water and power, levelling entire areas, setting unrealistic evacuation timelines for over a million people before going in for more destruction is somehow necessary is what I really disagree with. I don’t think it will result in the destruction of Hamas or increase security for Israel.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232161#Comment_121232161

Both are that's something that's not readily accepted

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232204#Comment_121232204

So you think the only option is to starve the populous to death, raze the city and slaughter civilians?

You sure about that?

They do have the capability to fire a missile in through an open window. They could exact revenge on those responsible without committing genocide.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232241#Comment_121232241

Nah, it's just attracted the anti-semites and RuZZian apologists. Most have been threadbanned enough elsewhere so they need a place to vent, and lying, demanding proof then rejecting it, all in their well-worn playbooks. Plus a fair few arguing with other posters who they have history with (again, see 'threadbanned elsewhere')

KilOit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232236#Comment_121232236

More countries hate Iran around the Middle East but overall, everyone kinda hates each other, whole region is a cluster ****

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232209#Comment_121232209

every civilian death is not the fault of hamas. that's an extraordinarily obtuse statement to make. i suppose you support the siege of gaza and israel's refusal of international aid and humanitarian corridors, the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets and the killing of united nations staff?

mate, israel has been given licence to commit all kinds of atrocities on the palestinians and we're all expected to wave our tiny stars of david in support. i find this whole thing abhorrent and any right-minded person should be disgusted at this slaughter, not wishing for more.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231199#Comment_121231199

have criticised those governments as well.

the communist party of china, putin, assad ETC are fascists as netanyahu.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232232#Comment_121232232

The sad reality is that a lot of posters on this thread would have celebrated that.

Long Sean Silver

just back from my daily jog. what a beautiful day.

as i ran along, the sun was shinning, Autumn leaves danced in the breeze, a stream babbled. laugh if you wish, but i thank my lucky stars, or whatever cosmic fluke brought me to this beautiful little slightly moist little atlantic island.

i will shower and then later i may tune into Sky, CNN or whatever for our daily dose of "one flew over the cuckoo's nest".

cmon IRELAND!!!!

Sudden Valley

Traditional military campaigns against terrorist groups are more often then not , unsuccessful so why do the "ends justify the means" lot think it will be successful here?

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232204#Comment_121232204

That's the entire point though Rapidash — reasonable solutions are harder to articulate on forums like these because they are nuanced and hard to formulate, they require setting aside the temptation to rush to easy answers. It is the antithesis of reason to surmise that the fact that an alternative does not easily reveal itself permits anything and everything. In other words, it's entirely intellectually, morally and even strategically justifiable to say that what Israel is doing to Gaza now is not reasonable — even if we mere faraway citizens cannot present the perfect way forward, much the same way the decades of diplomacy and bloodshed have not either.

This is all the more so as there no Palestinian tanks rolling across the plains, no Palestinian air force, no Palestinian allies with warships in the Meditteranean, no fighting force in Gaza capable of occupying Israel or threatening its existence. Gaza is surrounded and Israel has full strategic flexibility to plan at its own timing.

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232272#Comment_121232272

Hamas started war, absolutely every civilian death is their fault, and the fault of every civilian who supports and shelters them.

They could free the children and elderly that they kidnapped. Would you give food and power to the country holding your children hostage, knowing that much of it will be channelled to their terrorist sons and brothers?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232209#Comment_121232209

They should probably just kill the 2 million to be on the safe side right?

You must have to have a really twisted mind to write what you did. And also the people that thanked it, absolutely sick **** cheering on the slaughter of innocent people.

No every death from from bombs is on Israels leadership.

Honestly can't get my head around the bloodlust on this thread absolutely disgusting people.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232197#Comment_121232197

Why does Israel have a conventional military if it has nuclear weapons so?

There are different threats. Different weapons \ assets \ systems for different types of attacks.

Nuclear weapons are a last resort against certain types of attacks. That is all.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121231962#Comment_121231962

This was always going to happen. Rightly so, most countries were appalled by the terrorist attacks in Israel and countrys offered support and made statements condemning it etc... we've seen Israeli flags and building being lit up in support.

However, now that Israel has decided on the route they are going down, you will hear more and more countries change their tune, well not change per se, just reminding Israel to abide by international law, proportionate response.

Already the news headlines are shifting the focus away from the terrorist attacks and on to the looming humanitarian crisis looming in Gaza.