Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827236#Comment_121827236

It's not, it's going terribly for them and I can't see it getting any better in the immediate future.

So you admit, their use of armed struggle and violence is doing going well.

Perhaps they need a change in tactic?

But it's not going great for Israel either, high losses of troops, high losses of equipment and turned into a pariah state worldwide with massive condemnation from populations across the globe.

Not at all. What I found surprising is how few casualties the IDF have suffered. Analysts predicted thousands of dead IDF soldiers, but so far since the 28th of October, only about 282 IDF soldiers have been killed. Surprisingly low.

What equipment have they lost? **** all to be honest. Lets be honest. Hamas have ran away from the fight, they have no intention of taking on the IDF in a fair fight.

They've guaranteed that unless they agree to a full ceasefire as well and stop their apartheid regime against Palestinians the world will turn against them even more as pressure is put on them through protests and boycotting of their goods.

Guaranteed you say?

No, that is hope, opinion and conjecture on your part.

Once the war is over, normal business and relations will resume in due course.

The mood music is thus. While people might be sick and tired of Israel, they are also sick and tired of the Palestinians making it hard on themselves.

For sure things have changed since October 7th, there is no going back, but that also means that the Palestinians need to change tac. They cannot expected to continue down the path of violent struggle forever and expect the world to feel sorry for them.

Timberrrrrrrr

"The same can be said for Gandhi and Mandela."

This Mandela?

Maybe the Palestinians are following the lead of Mandela, they've suffered under Apartheid the same as the people of SA did.

"Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid.

To many South Africans, particularly within the African National Congress, Mandela was a great man partly because of his willingness to use violence, not in spite of it.

Many believe apartheid would have endured much longer if he hadn’t rebelled and overturned the ANC’s long-standing nonviolence policy."

https://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-nelson-mandela-legacy-violence-20131206-story.html

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826236#Comment_121826236

But non-violence has not worked either as their lands have diminished and their people arrested or murdered continually. So what are they to do?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826366#Comment_121826366

That is just like the '' croppy lie down '' policy. BUT that didn't work either. If you don't stand up for your rights then don't expect your aggressors to stand up for you.

You didn't give an example of what the Palestinians have to do to achieve their rights peacefully BECAUSE YOU CAN'T.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826370#Comment_121826370

That does not cut the mustard at all. Its deflection from the evading the question you were asked.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822893#Comment_121822893

Even if Hamas release all the hostages , it wouldn't mean an end to the war. This is the obstacle to any permanent ceasefire, Bibi has made it clear any ceasefire will be temporary. Both Hamas and Bibi share one goal; they are seemingly intent on seeing this through to the bitter end.

America could actually solve this if they put real pressure on both Qatar and Israel. They won't do it though .

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827149#Comment_121827149

Hacker: "Humphrey, are you saying that Britain should not support law and justice?"

Humphrey: "No, of course we should, Prime Minister. We just shouldn't let it affect our foreign policy"

Hacker: "We should always fight for the weak against the strong"

Humphrey: "Well then, why don't we send troops to Afghanistan to fight the Russians?"

Hacker: "The Russians are too strong".

There is going to be an element of reality in any decision-making. The level of reaction which an attack is going to provoke should be considered before conducting it, regardless of any moral equivocating over whether there would be moral justification for that reaction.

However, in this case, there is no need for any such moral equivocating. "Might has right" has principle limitations. AK-47 vs kibbutz may be a practical problem for those kibbutz people who were unable to fight back (not all of them were unable), but there is no doubting that the laws of war are in principle on the Kibbutzian side. You have, in principle, the right to defend your home in Ireland. In practice, the law doesn't allow you the means to do it. Does this mean that might has right if you're seventy and the intruder is thirty? Of course not. It just means that the 70-year-old is going to unfortunately and unlawfully die and repercussions will have to come after the fact, see DPP v Barnes (and indeed, repercussions did come for Mr Barnes, not that Mr Forrestal was in any position to appreciate this). Principle and practical results don't always match.

But here there is no principle which excuses 7 Oct. Had Hamas crossed the border and killed a thousand soldiers in their barracks, arguments could be made. The question is not "did Hamas have a justification to attack Israel", or even "did Hamas have a justification to kill a thousand Israelis". The question is "how did they attack, and who did they kill?". 766 civilians were killed. That's what most everyone talks about. The 373 security forces personnel killed in addition are not talked about in the larger discussion. The international outrage is over the organized wanton mass murder of civilians, not the raiding of bases. The military are treated as a separate category both legally and morally, and actions against a military are equally a separate principle. I would observe also that the international outrage against Israel right now isn't about the fact that they've decided to destroy Hamas as an effective organisation, but because people are perceiving excessive civilian casualties. It's the same argument.

Palestinians may not have the military capability to carry out what are arguably some legitimate political goals which have existed for years (Not all of their goals, obviously, but "leave us alone" I think would be one of them.) Israel does have the military capability to carry out what are arguably legitimate political goals. Until 7 Oct, the active destruction of Hamas would be difficult to justify as one of them. By 8 october, that changed, and we are now seeing the result. This is why I said one must be thoughtful before poking the bear. The idea that you may feel (or have) a legitimate grievance worthy of action does not mean that it is impossible for the other side to feel (or have) a legitimate reason for a reaction far in excess of what you can do.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826370#Comment_121826370

Even more vague blather. You evidently have no clue as to how they can proceed. You'll be telling us they should walk with Jesus next.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828229#Comment_121828229

This is why I said one must be thoughtful before poking the bear. The idea that you may feel (or have) a legitimate grievance worthy of action does not mean that it is impossible for the other side to feel (or have) a legitimate reason for a reaction far in excess of what you can do.

So do you believe Israels reaction is proportional or too much?

Brussels Sprout

A Tory councilor rang into James O'Brien's show when he was covering the Lee Anderson story.

He's jewish and basically wanted to steer the conversation away from islamaphobia and instead talk about anti-semitism in the wake of the Gaza conflict.

To call it a train-wreck might actually be an understatement. He'll be lucky if he isn't sued after this performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n04VhuZgns&ab_channel=LBC

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827027#Comment_121827027

You act like MLK wasn’t assassinated or that the civil rights movement involved no riots and seem to have no knowledge of for instance, the black panthers movement

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828229#Comment_121828229

Not much point going on about DPP v Barnes. It's irrelevant to the scenario you posted. I don't think the Hamas lads are claiming they killed Israelis in self defence from a burglary gone wrong. The Palestinians original "offence" appears to be mainly existing and breathing if you do want to make the analogy.

Why is it terrible when one side kills some civilians, but not the other side? Why the double standard? That's all I ask.

Plenty of people, spread across multiple generations of Irish history, "provoked the bear" of the British empire in their quest for freedom and equality. They were "wrong" to do so until they weren't I guess..........even though their aspirations would have been equally as valid.

Can you say for certainty what you would do if you lived there - with no hope and no future? Suffering humiliation every day of your life while colonisers who stole your land spit at you from the other side of that barbed wire fence. Perhaps seeing you house bulldozed and members of your family shot. A slow death of suffocation. Would you keep bending over saying "give it to me bear, I don't want to provoke you", or might you flip and decide you have nothing to live for and only something to die for? In many ways, a long slow, prolonged systematic process of murder would be less preferable to a large and quick hyper-violent one.

tayto lover

Genocidal and apartheid state and the people living in the World's largest open-air prison -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jehRJ0jQHQ

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828761#Comment_121828761

But they did.

Armed resistance didn't give the civil rights any gains, nor did it give Mandela or Ghandi.

Its simply historically not true to claim that they did.

Also, I note you ignored the question.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828265#Comment_121828265

I know failure when I see it, and the past 75 years have been a failure of Palestinian leadership, no question about that.

It appears everyone else has run out of ideas.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828031#Comment_121828031

You didn't answer my question, yet again.

And yes, Mandela in his earlier years dabbled in armed resistance but saw that it was a dead end and disavowed violence. That is why he was a great man, he saw through and beyond violence.

It's easy to pick up a rock or a gun or plant a bomb, it's much harder to take the high road to peace.

We have 75 years of evidence that Palestinian violence and armed resistance is not working.

A definition of madness is to continue doing the same thing, but expecting different results.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828342#Comment_121828342

Yes, I forgot all the times the black panthers blew themselves up on buses, launched rockets into non-black neighbourhoods and massacred civilians en mass.

Also...

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828787#Comment_121828787

At least they had ideas. It seems I'd easier get blood from a stone than get an idea out of you.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828831#Comment_121828831

Mandela never renounced violence. Rather famously.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828780#Comment_121828780

It bought Britain to the table.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828849#Comment_121828849

Going for false equivalence I see.

Slather all the MLK quotes you want but his nonviolence was greeted by political assassination.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826374#Comment_121826374

Are you actually interested in suggesting a strategy that may work for the Palestinians going forward?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828849#Comment_121828849

Very nice

King also said

"King’s language had become stronger and more assertive, urging direct action to bring about change.

For King had never meant nonviolent protest to mean “wait and see.” In fact, he made very clear that rebellions have their place in America. Just a few weeks before he died, in a packed high school gym just outside Detroit, constantly interrupted by a rowdy right-wing crowd picketing his appearance, King had these radical words to say:

“…it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear?…It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.”

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828937#Comment_121828937

You've already stated you aren't, so you are not equipped to ask me that.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828849#Comment_121828849

The hypocrisy of this post !!

Not a word about the brutal treating of Palestinians for 75 years. Never a criticism of what Israel has been doing for those 75 years. Not even one criticism of what Israel is doing now -

Denying food to starving people

Denying water to innocent people.

Denying electricity and gas to innocent people/

Denying medicine to sick and injured people

Bombing hospitals.

Murdering doctors, medics and ambulance crews.

Murdering press photographers and journalists.

Stealing land and backing-up the illegal settlers.

Bombing schools and colleges.

Putting the blame on innocent people and deflecting.

Etc etc etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829001#Comment_121829001

What a weird evasive reply.

You honestly can't give an opinion on this?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828808#Comment_121828808

Do I support Hamas, no and never have. I support ordinary Palestinians to be able to now fight the scourge that being delivered upon them by scumbag idf soldiers who are taking great pleasure in killing civilians.

You don't support Hamas, yet you support armed Palestinian resistance.

You do know Hamas is armed Palestinian resistance?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829015#Comment_121829015

Can you? No. "No point in asking me this."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824066#Comment_121824066

You're in no position to accuse others of being weird or evasive either evidently.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829123#Comment_121829123

All Hamas is Palestinian resistance but not all Palestinian resistance is Hamas.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829140#Comment_121829140

Nope. My main point there was that Palestinian strategy up to now has been a failure and they need to change tack to one that might succeed. Nonviolence was suggested by another poster (markodaly) to which some of you didn't seem to like. Must say I found that quite interesting......