Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871028#Comment_121871028

So the UN is biased against Israel and is telling lies ... right

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871028#Comment_121871028

The experts are part of what is known as the Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN human rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms. Special Procedures mandate-holders are independent human rights experts appointed by the Human Rights Council to address either specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures experts work on a voluntary basis; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent of any government or organisation and serve in their individual capacity.

they are all telling lies is it? To what end would they decide to do that? I think on the balance of probability I might decide to listen to what they have to say rather than your feeling that they are making it up

Toeuptony

100% this

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1766490689221902653?s=20

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121871028#Comment_121871028

They didn’t have proof then either?

“Reasonable grounds to believe” is not “proof” either so check your bias.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e

JayBee66

Judging by the number of Irish people flying the flag of a nation that has NEVER existed, it would appear that Stockholm Syndrome is an increasing problem in Ireland.

If the Irish want to get involved in the existentialist conflict in the Middle East then remember that one side is more like Ireland than the other. Namely, it was a state that had 2000 years of imperial occupation by 5 successive empires. The other side wants to become an empire that dominates the World. That first state and its people has more in common with Ireland than the second. Unfortunately, the second state is better at propaganda and tapping Stockholm Syndrome in the unwary.

THAT religion doesn't need to become a majority in Ireland before the Irish throw away all they fought for in 1922. Ireland's PR system will have political parties falling over themselves to court the vote of followers of THAT religion. We already see that in one party, led by someone from a family of far-left actors.

The problem with a liberal approach to immigration is that it is self-defeating. The majority of migrants come from illiberal countries and have no wish to become liberal. Migrants raise larger families than liberals. It is obvious what that will lead to. The replacement level will not be met by liberals. The illiberal will be the driving force of Ireland's population growth.

Eventually, all laws will become tainted by the needs of THAT religion so that existing political parties can remain in power. Irish people, who are more susceptible to Stockholm Syndrome, will increasingly side with THAT religion. As some are already doing with their flags.

You can throw the only truly democratic nation in the Middle East to the dogs but that won't keep the dogs at bay. As Putin wants more after Ukraine, THAT religion will want more after the demise of that democratic nation.

Democracy is in decline, throughout the World. Even the EU will become more authoritarian. Probably to guarantee that its liberal madness ensures its own demise.

The various strains of THAT religion will temporarily unite to vote for a single party throughout Europe that satisfies its aims. When those aims are met and there is no opposition then THAT religion will tear itself apart in a final conflict. Europe and the European people will already be no more.

Francie Barrett

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68514821

Israel have completed the first step in the process of carving Gaza up. A road has been built across the territory that divides it in two.

Eventually Gaza will go from complete Palestinian control to looking like the West Bank, major population centres will be cut off from each other, movement restricted, walls, trenches, security check points constructed.

The Hamas invasion of Israel has inflicted a catastrophe on Gaza.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873776#Comment_121873776

The Palestinians never have had complete control of Gaza. This is a bit like that time when you stated 40,000 Hamas fighters invaded Israel.

The Israeli far right and Likud must be secretly delighted with Hamas . Their vision for Gaza is being implemented.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873816#Comment_121873816

Hamas military strength is widely acknowledged at being in the region of 40k fighters.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873849#Comment_121873849

That is correct, but 40,000 did not invade southern Israel, which is what you originally stated . According to most sources it was between 1, 500 and 3,000 that invaded.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870397#Comment_121870397

I understand the mechanics of the situation very well. But as to it being repetitive, I'm not so sure. Definitely the wish to do it will be there, and of course this is known by Israel, and is expected, and so their attitude seems to be " Sure you will try again, but before you do a repeat, know the price that you will pay. And so now they will make it as high as they possibly can as a deterrent, and this is what we are seeing now.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869680#Comment_121869680

A life made much worse for Palestinians by Hamas diverting cash meant for the welfare and improvement of Palestinian lives into their (Hamas) pockets. Pre Oct,7, which is the time I'm speaking about.

Sudden Valley

I thought we have moved away from the "you're all a bunch of anti-Semites" low effort posts but I guess we are not.

So it seems that some of the hostage families have received proof that the hostages are still alive so that does suggest that Hamas is still in control which is depressing. hard to know if it is achievable that Israel can bomb Hamas out of Gaza so I suspect the killing of civilians will continue for a few more months.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/families-of-several-dozen-hostages-reportedly-receive-proof-their-loved-ones-are-alive/

Ten of Swords

@Shehal threadbanned

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874258#Comment_121874258

That starting to sound like zionish propaganda and soundbytes jm. Veering in the direction of "UNRWA runs Hamas" territory. How many times can they spend this cash? Presumably if they pay people to build the tunnels, the money is spent. If they wanted to keep it in their pockets, it would seem more logical not to build tunnels or buy rockets. If you want to talk about people profiting off misery, the real money is in massacring Palestinians to steal their property. Nearly three quarters of a million Israelis living in illegally occupied West Bank. Eyes firmly placed on plans to establish similar in Gaza. There's no difference between them and the Russians trying to seize land and property in Crimea or greater Ukraine. Except that the Russians appear to be less murderous against the Ukrainians afterwards and try to assimilate them (even if forcibly).

You are a military man - I could post a video I saw on youtube of IDF soldiers high-fiving each other and laughing as one of them regaled a story of how he had just shot dead an elderly Palestinian man lying face down on the floor of his house, trying to hold his arms up. The video showed the encounter (with the victim blurred). After they finished congratulating the murderer, they went back in and put a load more rounds into the body for the craic. How could someone support that? It's on youtube, but I'd probably get banned for posting it here as there appears to be a bit of a bias against the Palestinians.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874258#Comment_121874258

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/24/business/hamas-secret-investment-portfolio-israel/index.html

Hamas control an investment portfolio worth over $1b. Instead of using this wealth to develop Gaza and improve their lives of their citizens, they used it to fund this devastating war.

That should tell everyone all that they need to know about this group. Even now with Gaza almost completely destroyed and their war almost certainly set to end in defeat, they could call a halt to hostilities.

For the ordinary Gazans this is a terrible tragedy, but for the Hamas leadership in Qatar and Istanbul, I'd say life is fairly cushy.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874258#Comment_121874258

Is this the cash that Israel brought to Hamas in suitcases?

Most aid to Gaza is not cash. It's physical aid.

You can see that being airdropped into Gaza atm, it's food and water, not dollar bills!

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874469#Comment_121874469

I think the tragedy for the Gazans is that they live under the yoke of two cruel masters, Israel and Hamas. I don't see this changing after this conflict. Israel has dismissed the two state solution and I'm not certain that Israel is close to destroying Hamas. Israel just seem good at killing civilians than Hamas fighters.

tayto lover

Israel still expanding settlements and that doesn't indicate a willingness for peace, in fact it is a war crime. Israel has no intentions of making peace.

https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/0308/1436766-settlements/

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874469#Comment_121874469

My understanding is that there is a ship setting sail from Larnaca with aid. Also learning that Gaza doesn't have a functioning port despite all the Hamas money... Let that sink in as to what Hamas truly care about

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874734#Comment_121874734

What is the point in Hamas wasting resources building a dock when Israel have a naval blockade for nearly 20 years?

You may remember the aid flotilla that set sale for Gaza years ago and was intercepted by the IDF?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Of course you will defend the IDF executing sailors.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874486#Comment_121874486

The third cruel master for the Gazans is probably the US and others arming the Israelis - they wouldn't even be able to oppress the enclave to this degree without western support.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874477#Comment_121874477

Yes, I know what form aid takes, I spent several years delivering it, and in that part of the world too (amongst others) The cash you speak about, I know nothing. For sure I've never delivered cash, but given the world we live in, I wouldn't deny that it has and is still happening. I was thinking more along the lines of:- Before October 7, international aid to Palestine had several key goals. These included:

1. Financing Economic Development: Aid aimed to support economic development in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2. Contributing to Stability: Efforts were made to contribute to stability in the Middle East region.
3. Introducing Liberalized Markets: Aid initiatives worked toward introducing liberalized markets.
4. Sustaining Democratic Institutions: Support was provided to sustain democratic institutions.
5. Protecting Human Rights: Efforts were made to protect human rights1.

Additionally, the European Union (EU) has been a significant donor of aid to the Palestinians. And I'm pretty sure that all these objectives were and are being paid for in cash. The question is, how much is actually getting to its intended beneficiaries? I still remember being stopped by the Army in war torn countries while they took their "donation" And that part of the world is no different.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875073#Comment_121875073

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/11/israel-sent-suitcases-stuffed-with-cash-into-gaza-for-years/

I'm not aware of any other countries doing a deal with Israel to deliver suitcases of cash to Hamas.

There's very little reason for EU countries to supply Hamas with cash to build a school when they can't get supplies in. Far easier for the EU to purchase the raw materials and ship them in.

Same reason Hamas dug up water pipes rather than just purchase them. Because they would struggle to get them in because of the blockade.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874734#Comment_121874734

You clearly don't know what's going on in Gaza.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874363#Comment_121874363

See my post #33391 in response to Wolf. I'm focused on the situation that existed pre Oct7. And the events / circumstances that led to Oct7. But not what the situation is now. What's happening now is detestable, and for sure, like most normal people, I am totally against the killing of innocent men, women and children under any circumstances, and always have been. When you have worked in war zones, (as I have) and brought wounded men, women and especially children to hospitals or safe areas, it tends to reinforce that viewpoint. And no, I'm not military, but have close association with military, depending on the circumstances and country. Neither do I need any description of what any military are capable of, I've seen that up close and personal too, too close at times. So discuss all you like about the existing situation, on need for me to voice my opinion on that. There's already 1113 pages and 33400 individual posts, so my opinion on the situation now is past superfluous. However, what I am interested in is how it happened, especially Oct 7.th. The mechanics of it if you like. Hence my earlier posts and opinion on the tunnels, and the logistics issues involved.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875099#Comment_121875099

The truth is that nobody knows if Hamas receive actual cash. No point in anyone guessing or supposing. They couldn't purchase much with it anyway because of the blockade.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874469#Comment_121874469

The whole civilised world was shocked and horrified by the brutality that isis unleashed on the world in Syria and Iraq. Previous atrocities carried out by Islamic fundamentalists and Jihad's, paled into insignificance compared to what isis were doing. The images of yellow clad prisoners lined up for execution, then either being shot in cold blood, beheaded, or burned alive in steel cages will remain with me until I die. Make no mistake about it, Hamas are no different. And as for having funds worth in excess of 1 billion, no surprise there, they have been in power in Palestine since 2005. Had that money been used for the purpose oit was intended, Palestinians as a whole, would have been much happier, less prone to attacking Israel, and in fact, made for much better relations with Israel.

Akrasia

Even if Hamas had a billion dollars in cash in syphoned off Aid (or however they got it) that amounts to 500 euros per Gazan, nowhere near enough to balance out the economic hurdles placed by the Israeli blockades, and nowhere near enough to rebuild any of the infrastructure that was destroyed in any of the regular bombardments by Israel against Gaza, which occurred regularly before Oct 7, and the scale of destruction has been incredible since the latest bombardments.

Dozens of hospitals, hundreds of schools, roads, water, electricity, sewage infrastructure, housing and commercial buildings destroyed by the thousand...

The Palestinians cannot possibly succeed given those conditions, and this only gives a mandate to resistance movements

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875171#Comment_121875171

Easy to see why and how Oct 7th happened. Years of being treated extremely poorly and victimised for being Palestinian. Some people call it ethnic cleansing.

https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/0308/1436766-settlements/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatmen

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/precedent-october-7th-israeli-palestinian-conflict-systemic-gender-

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875200#Comment_121875200

This is a comment on Wolf's post (33392) and yours Tayto, OK? First, under the circumstances, unemployment was /is rampant in Gaza. So, supply of food / medicine was / is a priority. Generally, how this works is that in a situation where flour (for example) is unavailable, its supplied. Then local bakeries are paid (cash) to supply X number of loaves to the population. This is one example of where cash is used, now you can multiply this by any other Nr of other aid efforts. And they are many. If due to sanctions, its limited as to what Palestinians can purchase externally, they still need cash for everyday transactions within Gaza itself. And those needs mean a lot of cash changing hands. And where there's cash, you will have (in this case) Hamas.