Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000138#Comment_122000138

Perhaps those eejits maybe just don't have access to the same Facebook groups as you and therefore don't know the facts and legal principles as well as you do?

The matter is before a Court (the ICJ). Even with your deep legal expertise, you appear to have forgotten that it is up to that Court to determine the Genocide. Judges and barristers cannot just come out and issue informal judgments on it. They have to be professional. There is a reason why the signatories are restricted to retired members of the judiciary. Because serving ones would not be able to comment on the matter in any way, shape or form. The ICJ will issue the determination. Up until that point they can only use the words "plausible genocide" as that is what that court has already held

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000091#Comment_122000091

But you're not looking at it 'in the open'

You're looking at it through filters. There are lots of very biased and motivated sources that show you the world through certain points of view that are deliberately framing the narrative in favour of one perspective and in opposition to others.

There are almost 2 billion muslims in the world. The vast majority of them are decent ordinary people with exactly the same kinds of virtues and flaws as christians, buddhists, atheists etc.

If you view the world through a prism that projects everything as either pro-western and anti-western, and constantly talks about the virtues of 'western democracy' vs the violence and repression of other cultures that are portrayed as 'less developed'…

Most people just want to live normal, peaceful, satisfying lives surrounded by their own friends and family and with enough food, shelter and comforts to be able to be comfortable and secure.

That's the same everywhere in the world. And everywhere in the world, there are some people who are more liberal, and some who are more 'conservative' and some who are more permissive and others who are intolerant, some who are peaceful, and others who want to impose their view on others….

People are, for all practical purposes, genetically homogeneous everywhere in the world. We are all the same other than some superficial differences.

If you think someone is lesser or better than anyone else just because they were born somewhere, or have a family background different to your own, then you are not 'observing reality' you are pre-judging people and this is a filter you are placing in front of your observations that distorts your view of reality.

This is not to say that environmental conditions do not cause people to behave differently in different situations. If you take any random group of people and place them into the middle of a brutal war and give them the role of either participants, or civilians, then they will behave very differently to how they would under peaceful conditions. If you take someone and make them extremely insecure, due to poverty or political upheaval, then they will act and behave differently to people in diametrically different circumstances.

This is why the idea of 'become the change you want to see' is so important. If you want people to be kinder and more social and more tolerant, then you should support the fostering of those conditions in your life. If you oppose fundamentalism and intolerance, then it is wrong to oppose that by becoming fundamentalist and intolerant yourself.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000154#Comment_122000154

you appear to have forgotten that it is up to that Court to determine the Genocide

Is it me really? I might not be a lawyer but I still know that they were not even charged, yet alone found guilty of. Even the ICJ didn't find this so called "plausible genocide" plausible enough to rule for a immediate ceasefire. So until ICJ rules that is a genocide common sense and decency should dictate that we don't throw such accusations so lightly, that is, if there is one in the first place.

Akrasia

They are very clearly engaging in genocide.

People returning to their homes, if they're lucky enough that their house wasn't bombed already, are finding them burnt out from the inside. The IDF went house to house and destroyed homes in Gaza, empty houses being burnt to the ground so that there is no where for the refugees to return to after the war.

The IDF are dedicating military resources to going through residential areas, demolishing apartment blocks, burning out houses, destroying farms and drinking water.

They are doing this, for no other reason, except to make it as difficult as possible for the population of Gaza to return to their homes.

When the homes are vacated, what do you think will happen to them after the war.

If you don't believe that the plan is for 'settlers' to take over that land, then you are extremely naïve

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000214#Comment_122000214

Look, you are merely showing your ignorance on this. Such a determination could only be made after a full trial on the matter. That will take years. There is no other alternative. That is the reason why they have these preliminary rulings.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000245#Comment_122000245

Yes, then let's wait years until we accuse Israel of genocide - serious accusations require serious investigations. Until then the preliminary rule doesn't say it is happening, so you are the one who's ignorant of the actual findings of the court.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000228#Comment_122000228

Israel doesn't want Gaza, they left it voluntarily. They just won't stand rockets and terrorists coming out of it anymore.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000189#Comment_122000189

Yes, I am biased by my values and I judge everyone by those values, that much is true. I'm not judging those 2 billions as a whole or every one of them at the individual level, but I'm judging their cultures and their values and what kind of countries they were able to build, how are they contributing to the progress of humanity, and even how would the world look like if they were to be in charge.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000262#Comment_122000262

The preliminary ruling could not say it is happening. No more than a bail application determination could find an accused guilty.

The preliminary ruling could have dismissed the claim though. And would have done so without prima facie evidence to the contrary.

Do you understand the difference?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999999#Comment_121999999

I pretty much agree. I can't understand why Netanyahu was still in power on Oct 8th, never mind still in power today.

But I'd really like to know what you think Israel should have done on Oct 8th and on, other than to try to remove Hamas from power? And, if you're a military bod, which I'm not, maybe how they could have prosecuted a military intervention better than they did (the risk of putting IDF soldiers, who are mostly conscripts, in danger will need to be taken into account in any answer)

Thanks.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999853#Comment_121999853

And it was wrong then too.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000274#Comment_122000274

Israel doesn't want Gaza, they left it voluntarily.

Just woke up one morning, the corn flakes hit just right and they said out of the goodness of our hearts were leaving?

No. You’re twisting reality to suit a fiction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000274#Comment_122000274

Israel/Likud have a stated objective of having a Jewish controlled state over all the disputed territories.

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977"

And that includes Gaza.

The fact that they allowed Gaza to remain Palestinian before does not mean that they ever intended that to be their ultimate solution.

They are thinking in the long term, and it has stages. One of them was splitting Palestine into two separate parts, the West Bank and Gaza, another step is to push the people in Gaza into a smaller and smaller region on the border of Gaza, and at first they may call the empty space a 'buffer' zone, but it will very quickly become settler land

They will keep the Gazan population corralled in the refugee camps in Rafah for as long as it suits them, and then the 'negotiated settlement' will eventually involve those people being relocated somewhere else (or if the people in those camps refuse to accept that fate, they might just be wiped out entirely, any significant acts of resistance or terrorism originating from the refugee camps could be used as pretext for that)

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000138#Comment_122000138

You'd rather that the genocide happens first, and then everyone wrings their hands about it afterwards?

When Israel pre-emptively attacked their neighbours in 1967, did you think they should have waited for Iran to attack them first or was a plausible risk enough for them to take action?

Sudden Valley

It's hard to understand what the pro Israel supporters actually support here. Do they believe that if enough civilians are bombed or starved in Gaza that Hamas will just disappear? If the killing of aid workers has shown anything its that the IDF don't know what they are doing so I think any figures quoted by them for the amount of Hamas fighters they have killed mustnt be credible. I would say there is a good chance Israel will eventually disengage with Hamas still in place and Gaza in ruins.

It disappointing on this day and age that people still support such cruelty.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000532#Comment_122000532

I would dispute that Israel does not know what it is doing vis-a-vis killing aid workers and journalists. It appears to be a deliberate part of their strategy to target such individuals

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000292#Comment_122000292

Terrorism needs to be treated as a criminal offense and not as a military matter.

What did we learn from 9/11 and waging war against Afghanistan for the crimes of a few dozen Saudis and Afghanis?

Security services are supposed to protect against terrorism, and Israel had plenty of warning that the operation on October 7 was being planned and they failed to prevent it.

Reacting to the attacks by collectively punishing 2 million people is absolutely not the correct thing to do.

Reacting to terrorism by murdering them and their families in their homes while they sleep is not the way to deal with terrorism.

De-escalation, negotiation, planning for a future peace deal are the only way to provide both peace and security.

Hamas will be weakened far more by providing a genuine alternative for the people of Palestine that involves some measure of hope and reconciliation than they ever will, by trying to beat the population into submission.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000497#Comment_122000497

Israel defending its shipping rights in 1967, warning Egypt that closing the straits would be an act of war. Egypt closed the straits.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000558#Comment_122000558

Israel has an AI tool which it calls "Where's Daddy"

You know what it does? Once they decide some random person is Hamas, the system follows him and waits until he is home and then alerts the operators so that they can kill the entire family.

https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/5/israel_ai

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000561#Comment_122000561

There's always something. What is not in dispute at all, is that Israel conducted the first strikes as a surprise attack against Egypt and Syria and destroyed most of their air forces on the ground when they were not expecting to be attacked,

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000604#Comment_122000604

Plenty of warning given. Egypt fafo'd.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000603#Comment_122000603

that is true evil.
The myth of human shields is dead.

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ai-system-wheres-daddy-strikes-hamas-family-homes-2024?amp

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000603#Comment_122000603

Yeah. This is particularly disgusting. Especially when you pair it with accusations that Hamas use 'Human Shields'

If the IDF define using a 'Human Shield' as being at home while also being a member of Hamas. (or be suspected of being a member of Hamas)

Using that logic, it would make it perfectly acceptable for Hamas to attack the homes of every Israeli family that has even a single serving member of the IDF (given that there is conscription in Israel, they could argue that every house in Israel is a suspected IDF target). That is clearly not acceptable

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000638#Comment_122000638

There were instances during the Troubles up North where the British had information about potential attacks on barracks etc. and where, rather than stopping the attack, they instead laid ambushes to kill the would-be-perpetrators. Cases were taken to the ECHR and findings were made against the UK for violating human rights.

Just think of the orders of magnitude worse what the IDF are doing. Imagine if the UK had merely used some computer program to determine that person X was possibly in the IRA, then waited til he was in the house with his family to blow it up to deliberately kill the entire family.

ToweringPerformance

You read about evil regimes from days past and then hope we've progressed as a civilisation but every now and then something pops up to remind us of the true evil that humans are capable of still. These last 6 months have proven beyond any doubt just how warped and sick the Israeli government are.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000623#Comment_122000623

It wasn't an 'unprovoked attack' but it was Israel who struck first and struck hard at 7:45am in the morning in a coordinated pre-emptive attack against Egypt and Syria.

They justified it on the basis that they believed that the Arab states were going to attack them, so they hit them first.

Anyway, this is completely off topic

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000664#Comment_122000664

Internment of catholics in Northern Ireland is still seen, to this day, as unacceptable human rights abuses, the Guilford 4 and Birmingham 6 are still remembered as terrible miscarriages of justice and were used as justifications for continuing to resist occupation in the North.

Every single day, in Gaza and the West bank, the Israelis are interning people, and imprisoning them for long periods of time without any charges, subjecting them to conditions that are described as unacceptable and inhumane by Israeli whistle-blowers

And still, these are the very least of the crimes that Israel commits against Palestinian people. They shot tens of thousands of peaceful protesters over the years, permanently crippling thousands of them. And these are considered normal, day to day policing operations.

The brutality of the occupation in the West bank and Gaza rivals anything the British ever did to the Irish in even the darkest days of British occupation and subjugation going back hundreds of years.

thereiver

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/no-genocide-in-gaza-or-on-october-7-us-defense-chief-says/

What is the legal definition of genocide?
Section 1091 of Title 18, United States Code, prohibits genocide whether committed in time of peace or time of war. Genocide is defined in § 1091 and includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

They have destroyed most of gaza ,they have bombed hospitals, mosques, most houses have been destroyed

30 thousand civilians have been killed they have killed aid workers journalists and medical staff

there is no safe space in gaza where civilians can be sure they won,t be bombed or shot .

the official policy is its ok to kill 20 civilians if they estimate one member of hamas will be killed

they have made it almost impossible for aid workers to operate normally and to bring food water or medical supplys to civilians

I think its hard to argue that theres not genocide going on in gaza but american politicans do not want to say this as how could they continue to supply arms to continue the war. Biden has to be careful if he criticizes the israeli government too much he could lose the jewish vote in the election.

theres a large miltary industrial complex in america where companys manufacture weapons bombs and missiles and sell them to other countrys

The idf seems to be very casual and careless in regard to ensuring the safety of aid workers while bombing civilians

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001036#Comment_122001036

you won’t see the US acknowledge it’s going on because too much rides politically on supporting Israel, both domestically and in the region. The Pentagon this week repudiated that they had verified anything of the sort happening, but of course if they were to confirm human rights abuses by Israel it would trigger a chain of events that make it nearly impossible to continue supporting Israel. It’s quite a sickening scenario.

nacho libre

I see the main political leader of Hamas has now lost 4 children and he is proud of their deaths as martyrs. Warped!

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000558#Comment_122000558

Umm, so Israel should have sent a strongly-worded letter to the Hamas Department of justice and the police and waited for them to arrest the wrong doers? How well do you think that would have worked?

Because Al Qaeda were not actually running Afghanistan.

TBH anyway the biggest mistake the Americans made was probably deciding that they didn't care nearly as much about Afghanistan as about proving something in Iraq, and using that as an excuse to go in there too.

Your last paragraph is exactly the same mistake that Netanyahu committed, enabling large sums of money from Qatar to reach Hamas allegedly to run Gaza. They aren't interested in running a normal country. They want to destroy Israel. Afghanistan never wanted to destroy America.