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Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,876 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Interesting to see Israel beating Ireland in Eurovision last night and Ireland giving a lot of points to Israel.

    I wonder is this country being led around by the nose by the Boyd Barretts etc. The Irish public majority support Israel by all accounts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,176 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Voting was interesting given the juries did not rate the israeli song so highly. But I wouldn't think the eurovision voters are totally representative of the country. Alot of us don't watch the program.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,429 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    There are a lot of pro-Israel people in this thread. I've seen the arguments that Israel has every right to do what they are doing in Gaza right, despite the resulting destruction of civilian infrastructure and loss of innocent civilian lives, because of what Hamas did on October 7th. I personally don't agree but I can understand the argument.

    What is the justification for this kind of behaviour in the West Bank though?

    The theft of Palestinian land in the West Bank has been going on for decades but has ramped up since October 7th. I cannot see any justification for this kind of activity that doesn't come down to colonisation.

    How do the supporters of Israel justify the expansion of settlements in the West Bank - an area famously not controlled by Hamas?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,904 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    ”Own it” is cheap and lazy. Haven’t seen you criticize Congress where it belongs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 AvalonEnaid


    Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, a co-founder of Hamas, has said that the vast majority of the Palestinian people support Hamas.

    This is literally the son of the co-founder of Hamas, he was born in that environment, he grew up in that environment, he participated in that environment, he was groomed to be a leader. He is infinitely more qualified to speak about this than most people.

    Pro-Palestine supporters are giving Hamas cover. They are participants in the crime of Oct 7. Palestine is made up of different tribes that would kill each other if they did not have Israel as the common enemy. The people speaking on the authority of Hamas propaganda are helping prove that Palestine depends on the destruction of the State of Israel and don't even understand that Hamas does not respect them and would torture them without mercy as they're nothing but useful idiots.

    The supporters don't know what they are supporting, they are supporting a monster that has been hi-jacking an entire society and endangering the entire middle east and pushing the world towards a global war.

    "Palestine is an Arab land from the river to the sea!" - Hamas Teacher



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,904 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    "Everyone supports me, everyone knows that" - Hamas Trump



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    maybe @AvalonEnaid could share what they and their colleagues think today on this post?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    2 things happened in the Eurovision last night

    Israel had a good song

    There was a boycott against the Eurovision for allowing Israel to compete

    These 2 factors meant that fewer people were voting for acts that weren't Israel so of course the act will do better than usual



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,147 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Fair play to you for reading his Zionist rubbish. I didn't.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,811 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I dunno, I saw some sad bastard on twitter saying he voted 60 times for Israel to be edgy, imagine wasting your money like that



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I'd be surprised if any country didn't had a voter doing something similar.

    How crazy would it be if the anti-Israelis inadvertantly caused them to win the Eurovision?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,661 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I’m not a “supporter” of Israel -at the time of the brutal and cowardly Hamas attack, I supported Israel’s right to respond- I withdrew that support weeks later as it was obvious too many innocent people were being killed and Hamas was essentially hiding behind them like the cowards and rapists that they are.

    Israel has gone way OTT overall in its invasion - but the taking of lands I imagine is strategic and could well be used as a bargaining chip later - I don’t agree with what their doing but I can understand why they’re doing it - this has been quite an ugly “war” -I don’t condone Israel’s actions but in the face of overwhelming force, Hamas could have laid down arms- they didn’t - they equally have blood on their hands but people like Gary Linekar and others don’t want to talk about that inconvenient truth



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,302 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Hang on… the nazi's are better because they hid their crimes. That's the point you take from history?

    Firstly, the nazi's hid the extermination camps, but they didn't hide all their crimes. They made many of them into laws. The night of broken glass is well documented. They made loads of propaganda videos.

    But if the hill you choose to die on is that the Nazi's were better because they built extermination camps outside germany (let's conveniently forget about the concentration camps inside germany), you do you.

    Secondly, Israel won't allow foreign journalists into Gaza. They have kicked out an Arab news agency. They are attempting to hide what they're doing. They've killed tens of thousands of innocent women and children. But I guess they're better than Hamas and closer to the Nazi's because they're hiding it?

    And we've seen Israeli crowds cheering on the deaths of Palestinian civilians. We've seen Israeli politicians, cabinet members even, call for a genocide. We've seen Israelis hunt down aid workers with drone strikes. We've seen refugee camps of tents hit with massive ordnance. And we've seen israeli civilians destroy humanitarian aid and preventing it from reaching starving children. There's even been Israeli hostages shot in the back when trying to surrender because the soldiers thought they were Palestinians.

    And that's besides all the settler crimes we've seen in the westbank along with the ongoing occupation and systematic apartheid

    The difference between you and me (and most Palestinian supporters) is that for you only one side can commit crimes. The rest of us will completely condemn what Hamas did and at the same time will be appalled by the death and suffering that's being caused by Israel. This isn't like a football game for us. We don't support one side no matter what. Just for once, it'd be nice to see an israeli supporter call out crimes committed by israel with no whatabouttery or excuses. Just say that's wrong and the people who did it and authorized it and covered it up should be prosecuted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,302 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    See, no-one here supports Hamas. People are anti Israeli violence and apartheid. They want to see a two state solution. they want to see palestinians living without occupation.

    You can call out Hamas, but that ignores the fact that the west bank is larger and under occupation. Hamas are the best excuse israel have. They can commit horrific crimes in the west bank and go "what about hamas"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,147 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I heard on Newstalk that some pro-Israelis voted up to 20 times for the song. Madness. Glad it didn't win though as it was all just an effort to make Zionists look normal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The problem is many pro Israelis think Israel has a blank cheque to do as they please under the guise of self defense. They either don't care or don't see what a dangerous precedent this sets. It also makes a mockery of the claim to be a democratic state if you can flout international law as you please. Do you think if the IDF do somehow manage to wipe out Hamas that Israel will have long term security? Yitzshak Rabin- who was no dove in his time- realised that Israel could not have long term security through military might. Bibi probably knows that and it suits him and his ilk perfectly fine to have a bogey so he can maintain the status quo. That's why he was happy to let the cash flow into Hamas until it spectaculary backfired on him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,939 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    fairly easy to manipulate the vote. all you need is a small number of baby killing enthusiasts in each country.

    They only have isreal to vote for, while the normal people have a split of 24 other countries (would have been 25 but isreal got the Dutch kicked out). There is no block voting going on for these voters. They pick the song they like, we gave Croatia 12 points who came second overall. Yet isreal still only came 5th. Pathetic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭engineerws


    AFAIK, the mas rape has been debunked same as the 40 beheaded babies.

    I wonder will we ever know what happened on October 7 but it is clear that Hamas attacked military positions and killed a significant number of soldiers. It's unknown how many of the civilians were killed should be attributed to IDF or Hamas. You can say hamas are terrorists or whatever but it's also clear Israel had 1,200 Palestinians imprisoned without charge before October 7. I wonder how you might feel were you living in Gaza and a relative was imprisoned without charge.

    To me Israel is the terrorist and coward in the equation and not Palestinians who have been oppressed by a western backed regime for 75 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,302 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I think the mass rapes have never been proven as opposed to debunked. There's enough reports that some sexual assaults/rapes probably occurred, but they didn't perform autopsies and a lot of the evidence is from third parties.

    I'm 100% sure that hamas killed civilians. Although there's a good chance that Israel killed some when they were attacking hamas fighters, the vast majority of civilians were killed by Hamas.

    The thing is that hamas lost a lot of legitimacy when they attacked civilians. If they'd only attacked military objectives, then a lot more people would have sympathy for them. The situation of gaza is horrible and people would understand attacking Israeli military targets

    And I'd say the same about Israel. If Israel wasn't killing so many civilians and completely leveling entire cities, a lot of people would have more support for them.

    For me personally, neither side have my support. My support is with the innocent civilians on both sides who have been affected by all this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I have to slightly disagree with this. Regardless of the cannibal directive and what exactly happened on October 7th I think Hamas are terrorists.

    The reason i say this is because let's not forget they used to send suicide bombers into Israel to target and kill Israeli civilians in restaurants and other places. If they solely targeted the IDF I would see them as a legitimate resistance group. Some would still class them as terrorists but yet these very same posters supported the likes of Irgun and Hagannah who fought the British. A glaring double standard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,904 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    ”I think the mass rapes have never been proven as opposed to debunked.”

    Did they wear condoms? Rape on mass scale should be somewhat readily provable surely with physical evidence from victims. I find it bizarre if it hasn’t been proven in whole or in part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,661 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Going by figures a few months ago the death toll from the attack was 767 civilians, 20 hostages and 376 members of the security forces, giving a total of 1,163. 
    Not a small number of civilians by any means and yes Hamas did rape some women - I find it extraordinary that this event on that day is still minimised by “pro-Palestine” supporters - it would be laughable if it weren’t so serious



  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭engineerws


    Fair point. However, when I look at what Israel are doing it puts it in a different context.

    If slaves revolted and attacked the slavers, would you blame slavery or the slaves? This doesn't excuse the horrific suicide bombings but I very much view the Israeli's as terrorist cowardly oppressors causing the problems.

    If there were equity in the region between the factions and still Hamas was using violence it would be a different story, to me anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,302 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    There were no autopsies or rape kits used afterwards. So there's no physical evidence. there's enough reports that it's impossible that all could be false like the baby stories. But there's not evidence to suggest it was widespread.

    I've said it before, but the Israeli authorities shot themselves in the foot by not clamping down on the false stories that circulated afterwards. Loads of people died that day. There was more than enough horror. By not stamping out the fake stories and rumours it made it possible to start dismissing the horrible stuff that actually happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,904 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    reportedly Israeli settlers destroying aid convoys today

    https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/xVtSSWqO8z



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    To answer your question, I think both Sinwar and Bibi should be in the Hague. I don't condone targeting civilians no matter who does it. Pro Israelis will try to claim the IDF doesn't target civilians, however if you drop a 1200 pound bomb on a refugeee camp full of civilians that is an act of terror as far as i am concerned. If any other country did that, the Americans would be calling for sanctions-but of course it was done with bombs supplied by the Biden administration. Joe is suddenly concerned about civilians casualties because he losing votes in the US.

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,811 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Hamas are evil, there is no question about it. They deliberately target and do despicable things to civilians. They need to go if Palestine is to have any chance of peace, and it's important not to lose sight of that, or fall into the immoral hole of justifying what they do.

    However, Israel will not be able to get rid of them nor does it seem like they actually want to. They are only reinforcing Hamas and it's ideology with their actions, while at the same time hoping to genocide and cleanse as many ordinary Palestinians as they can get away with.

    A reformed PA with the backing of the international community to save the West Bank is the only way peaceful way forward imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,216 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I find it quite disgusting how the 'me too' movement seems to end at Israeli women.

    What happened to the whole 'I believe her' thing?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,786 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




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