Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200288#Comment_122200288

Why is he a disgrace? That's actually the most reasonable and decent thing I've ever heard him say..

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200857#Comment_122200857

The Biden administration made a huge misjudgement in trusting Israel at the start of their offensive of retribution. They should have made it crystal clear to Netanyahu and the IDF that they would tolerate a certain level of casualties in Gaza and a modest level of damage to civilian infrastructure. That after that, all bets were off and no further support would be given.

Israel instead didn't just take the inch, they've taken the proverbial several hundred miles and utterly discredited & disgraced both themselves and their supporters like Biden and some EU leaders. They've discredited Biden and undermined his election campaign, holed it below the waterline.

Furze99

Although I'd like to see Biden win over Trump, I don't think he will now - he's fracturing his vote. That is assuming Trump sidesteps/ exploits his current court case rows and gets his campaign in full swing. You can be quite sure that Trump will be selling MAGA big time and laying into Biden for being too involved in foreign policy etc. Ultimately Putin is not stupid and his divide & conquer tactics are working out for him.

Balagan1

A lot of you on here won't want to miss the tribute by the UN General Assembly to the late President Raisi of Iran later today.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201086#Comment_122201086

The US is boycotting it.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200991#Comment_122200991

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think most Americans don't really give a sh1t about Gaza ultimately. Maybe the US govt could have done that, but equally, they're then opening themselves up to the "not supporting Israel enough" accusations in an election year, or even worse, the "backing the terrorists" accusation. Personally I think that would lose them far more votes than their current position will. That's not to say I think they're right, but I just think the realpolitik of the situation has it this way.

If Biden loses in November I doubt it will be because of Gaza, although we'll probably never know for sure.

Fuascailteoir

Heard an interesting discussion from human rights lawyers that said the ICJ has already ruled that Israel can not engage in self defence in the west bank i.e. outside of their borders. Although has not been specifically stated yet this also extends to the Gaza strip so the claims of defence are illegitimate.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201453#Comment_122201453

By any reasonable metric, Israel's claims of 'self-defence' are illegitimate

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201485#Comment_122201485

Eh?

Hamas invades - Israel chases them back to Gaza and pursues the fight. Lots and lots of one-on-confrontations in Gaza with Hamas.

Hamas continues to launch rockets into Israel, most recently to Tel Aviv. Hamas' allies attack from Lebanon and Iran, even Yemen though I don't think their drones reached Israel.

Seems like self-defense.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201453#Comment_122201453

It was pointed out last year the self defense argument doesn't extend to areas under occupation. It's the same as Russia arguing self defence in Ukraine.

It may settle the legal argument that Gaza was occupied prior to Oct 7th. Lots of legal rulings will need to be made.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201510#Comment_122201510

Nope. It's an illegal offensive and is being investigated for war crimes and potential genocide. The 'self-defence' argument is a fantasy.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201510#Comment_122201510

Hamas invades..... we'll ignore the fact that prior to Oct 7th Israel was bombing and killing civilians in Gaza. But we're back to the legal arguments, did Hamas invade or if Gaza was under occupation did Hamas attack the forces occupying it.

Is Ukraine acting in self defense by attacking Russian soil? Is Russia entitled to claim self defense when Ukraine attacks Russian soil, despite the fact that Russia is an occupying force in Ukraine.

It's not exactly a similar comparison, but if Israel is going to use the self defense clause in future court cases, you'll be sure those seeking justice for the thousands of children killed in Gaza will be making the case that Gaza was under occupation prior to Oct 7th.

Remember the civilians in Gaza are the victims. Don't go trying to twist this as support for Hamas or trying to get Hamas off etc...

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201563#Comment_122201563

So, it's fantasy Hamas continue to launch rockets?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201630#Comment_122201630

Plenty of victims to go around. Yes, it's legal arguments of course. Another poster asserted it's an 'illegal offensive' but that's a legal ruling, his/hers was emotional.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201630#Comment_122201630

It is not a similar comparison by a country mile

Ukraine before 2014 and then 2022 invasions by Russia was recognised as a state with borders set in 1992 by all the other countries in the world, including crucially Russia itself who even signed an agreement to defend said borders in return for nuclear weapons and destruction of things like bomber planes.

Actually now that I think of it recognition of Palestine by all states will lead to boat load of issues for HAMAS and all Palestinians if let’s say on 7th October 2034 they decide to launch another attack on same scale

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201510#Comment_122201510

That’s actually a terrible understanding of how self defense works. It’s not self defense to commit genocide. If they want to claim self defense where is the offensive into Lebanon, Iran and Yemen? What are they stupid?

boetstark

I have been banned on this thread… <Mod Snip>

Mod - Banned from the CA forum too now

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201849#Comment_122201849

They're shooting at Lebanon; an offensive into Lebanon might've happened, but hasn't. Might still. Too bad Hamas turned tail and put themselves in with the citizens they might be sworn to protect, but unfortunately for them, they did. Sacrifice Gazans to gain popularity.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201632#Comment_122201632

To a million starving Gazans, the self-defence narrative is even more of a fantasy than the prospect of a meal. Look pal, you can try and defend the indefensible all you want but at some stage you're going to have look at this purely through a humanitarian lens. It's a genocide. Wave your tiny star of david all you want, justify it however you please, but it's still a genocide.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201972#Comment_122201972

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/8/18/israeli-police-arrest-and-brand-palestinian-with-star-of-david-report

Very self defence.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201830#Comment_122201830

So if Palestine is not considered a state, what's what make Gaza? I mean you're more proving that Israel has been an occupation force and as such Israel doesn't get to cite self defense.

The issue isn't state V state, it's about an occupation force claiming self defense.

If, in your example, Gaza is still occupied by Israel in 2034 and despite being recognized as a state, again, Israel cannot claim self defense.

To dumb it down, it's like a trespasser claiming self defense after he enters a house and attacks the homeowner.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202154#Comment_122202154

I never claimed Israelis are not an occupying force nor actually ever defended them, quite the opposite I clearly stated on this thread that both sides are worse than each other in this smouldering dumpster fire

Just pointing out that yet again the comparisons with Russian war in Ukraine are silly at best

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192976#Comment_122192976

I don't get it either, I saw the Dail debate and it just seemed like political "virtue signalling" to give the Palestinian people a warm fuzzy feeling or themselves to say look at how great we are. It solves nothing other than create noise. Is it going to be proper recognition trade, a Palestinian embassy etc?

The ICJ pronouncement was similarly pointless given that it has no authority to enforce any of their decisions on Israel.

The whole thing had the feel of "The League of Nations" in the 1930's when Italy invaded Ethiopia/Abyssinia nothing was done. Only the promise of very limited sanctions.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201969#Comment_122201969

any normal country that isn’t morally bankrupt wouldn’t fire into a populated area.

If there was a terrorist hiding in a Tel Aviv shopping centre would the IDF bomb it.

ted1

Hamas didn’t continue to, they attacked on the 7th October and 1 more several months later. After Isreal had killed over 35,000 people and levelled Gaza after destroying schools, hospitals , etc

Bear in mind that Isreal has an iron dome which renders most of the missiles useless.

In the time between Isreal has also launched an attack another foreign country by bombing their embassy

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202474#Comment_122202474

Like, an outdoor rave?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202542#Comment_122202542

well we established that Hamas is a terrorist group. And terrorist groups are generally morally bankrupt And we’ve all condemned the attack.

I don’t see what your point is ? The Israeli response is totally disproportionate. It’s genocide with many more war crimes. The IDF knew the attack was coming and let it happen

Collective punishment is not right. I don’t see how you try try to justify it.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202573#Comment_122202573

Are Hamas morally bankrupt for firing into a populated area?

What the IDF knew in advance remains to be determined, which is terrible. The Israeli people are protesting this and other failures of the Netanyahu government on a near-daily basis and holding huge protests.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202593#Comment_122202593

I’ve already said they were , unless you think otherwise.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202593#Comment_122202593

Are Hamas morally bankrupt for firing into a populated area?

Yeah, as are the IDF. Most rational people can accept both sets of actions are wrong, but you and the other defend at all costs Israeli cheerleaders seem incapable of such thought.