Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Sudden Valley

It does not seem likely that Hamas are going to surrender themselves or their hostages anytime soon, so i'm really not sure what the plan of the Israelis is. It seems every other day they are killing civilians by accident, yesterday in a UN school and even then their supporters here don't seem to care.

riffmongous

There must be dozens of interviews of Minister Ben Gvir calling for the settlement and annexation of Gaza (along with "voluntary" emigration of Palestinians) by now, calling it a join-the-dots conspiracy is a bit odd

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228830#Comment_122228830

Not a single rebuttal to a thing I wrote. I get it, you don't have a clue about the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict, but there is no anti-western rhetoric, there are only facts. Who created the borders of most Middle East countries? Britain and France with Sykes-Picot. Who came up with the idea to create Israel? European Zionists. Who created mandatory Palestine for the purpose of establishing Israel and encouraging Jewish immigration? The British. How much input did the local populations have in any of those those decisions? Zero. If you still don't get it, I won't be shocked.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231804#Comment_122231804

Sadly the hostages are their bargaining chip.

With this in mind what organisation will agree to their own destruction? Some posters think if Hamas release the hostages it will be the end of war. There maybe considerable pressure brought to bear in that circumstance, but so far Bibi has not been persuaded to change course by pressure. I am not sure that will change if the hostages are released.

In the absence of a military defeat of Hamas( which seems unlikely) The only way I see this being solved is if Hamas can be persuaded to go into exile. This is where Qatar needs to exert its influence. Israel can spin it as a victory, and Hamas can try to spin it as the Israelis were forced to end the war without defeating Hamas.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229338#Comment_122229338

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229338#Comment_122229338

Oh look it is the usual antisemitism trope. OK let's substitute Jewish state for Christian or Hindu or African or Asian or even Persian, do you think the Arabs would have been unopposed to the creation of any state by foreign powers in their territories for a foreign people without any consultation? In fact do you think there is anywhere in the world that would have accepted such a situation that wasn't a result of colonisation? Look at the reaction to immigration in Europe currently and that is without any suggestion of a state just for those peoples.

As for antisemitism, remind us again why the European Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state and who carried out the holocaust? Stones and glasshouses and all that.

ceadaoin.

Id imagine very few of hostages are still alive or healthy at this stage. That's why they won't agree to any deals that rely on their release, it's the one bargaining chip they have. Releasing a bunch of raped, tortured and possibly pregnant teenagers probably wouldn't be a good look for them, even amongst the people who support them and their cause

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231792#Comment_122231792

Thankfully Tom Hands views are not influencing government policy. Poor Tom is conflating our recognition of a state of Palestine, and the right of self determination of the Palestinian people, with recognition of the legitimacy of Hamas - the Irish government condemned Hamas and its actions but Tom and his ilk (Bibi and his supporters) appear to be anti Palestinian and expect everyone else to make no distinction between Palestinian civilians and Hamas fighters - the wholesale slaughter of civilians can be passed off as enemy casualties

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231932#Comment_122231932

I saw Tom Hand's remarks on RTE. He specifically says that he objects to what he regards as Hamas being "rewarded" for October 7th and the inevitable Israeli reaction. He also says he has no problem with support of Palestinian rights, but not for what he regards as an totally unacceptable support for Hamas.

He may be wrong, but in the circumstances I can understand how he feels.

sligeach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231792#Comment_122231792

Watched his interview on the Six One News just now. Some of what he said is nonsense, like him saying that the Irish government is pro Hamas. I've no time for our shower of leaders, but they're not pro Hamas, they're pro Palestine.

This from Tom Hand who was relieved when he thought his daughter Emily was dead, when she was in fact kidnapped. What a weird thought process. If you call that a "blessing", what do you call her being returned unharmed?

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1012/1410489-israel-gaza-tom-hand/

She's not dead, maimed or scarred for life. The same cannot be said for the thousands and thousands of dead children in Gaza. Not to mention the many thousands more who are maimed and scarred for life. I didn't hear him say anything critical about Israel and how they've responded.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231981#Comment_122231981

So, you're looking for clarification on whether this is a new war, an intensification of a preexisting war, or what? It seemed like things were quiet in Gaza prior to this outbreak of war and with Israel getting closer to an agreement with Saudi Arabia, Iran's proxies like Hamas had to act. Hence, an outbreak of war.

So, what do you think will happen to the hostages in Gaza should Israel withdraw without Hamas agreeing a ceasefire? My opinion is, more will die as Hamas won't release them.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232239#Comment_122232239

Israel has basically reached the status of a terrorist state at this stage. Any country which fails to uphold international law and engage in wholesale slaughter of civilians deserves the classification of terrorist state in my opinion. An entire people subjugated and dispossessed since 1948, with a large number corralled into a concentration camp in Gaza - a lull in the 76 year struggle and you refer to it as "quiet" as if it was normal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232324#Comment_122232324

They have a border with Egypt, that Egypt have closed, are Egypt complicit?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232783#Comment_122232783

Complicit in what? Genocide, mass starvation, bombing schools, hospitals, refugee camps?

Egypt have a land border with Gaza, the same border that 2 Egyptian soldiers were killed by IDF fire. I wonder why they have it closed? Egypt is under no obligations under international law to have open borders with Gaza. Gaza have a access to the sea, unfortunately Israel has blockaded that for decades.

Why is the go to for people to ignore all the borders Israel have closed in Gaza and also the naval blockade and point out, oh Egypt is bad?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232811#Comment_122232811

Right, you don't want the refugees to go their because that would alleviate the suffering and civilian casualties. You prefer to keep the pressure on Israel. Because this is a war about the Jews. So we can stop pretending to care about Gazans, when you have a Muslim country next door that won't let them in. Not only that, but they have tunnels underneath to supply Hamas more weapons and to hide their hostages. Very interesting that, I think in that way to its supporters, death and suffering of Gazans is justified. Where to another normal westener they would open the border to their neighbours. Many wars going on in the world, I think this one is so popular because people have finally a good reason to hate on the Jews publically. Where the rest of Europe are very weary of doing such a thing, for obvious reasons. And by the way, Europe had no problem opening it's border to ukrainians taking in at least a quarter of the population. And Egypt can't do this because they are afraid of one or two of its border guards dying, give me a break. It's a subversive war against the jews, back by its supporters.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232324#Comment_122232324

You can easily find videos of what life was like there before this war, it definitely wasn't anything like a "concentration camp". To call it such is just ridiculous hyperbole.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232898#Comment_122232898

You're deflecting. There's a country committing war crimes daily and being investigated for genocide, but look over there at Egypt.

Is that the argument? Israel are forced to commit war crimes, bomb schools, hospitals and refugee camps because…. let me check notes…. Egypt wont allow Gazans into Egypt?

Seeing as how you mention Ukraine, is Russia somehow justified or absolved of all their war crimes because European countries opened their arms to Ukrainians? Those Ukrainian civilians who die each day due to Russian bombs should have left Ukraine? It's their fault they died?

Jack Daw

Thomas Hand really is a lunatic, I thought so when I saw his ridiculous reaction to finding out his daughter had been kidnapped but gave him the benefit of the doubt but today confirmed it.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232898#Comment_122232898

Have you nothing to offer outside this threadbare "war against the jews" trope?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232951#Comment_122232951

Hamas are aligned with Russia. And Ukraine are aligned with Israel. Hamas are backed by Iran, Russia, Egypt, China, north korea, turkey, south Africa, Nicaragua etc. Israel is backed by USA (Biden), Germany, Uk and most of the western world. Ireland is confused in this because its government thinks it's the same situation we had here in the past when in fact, it's not.

How do you defeat an enemy who hinds behind the public? And without inflicting civilian casualties. There's no sofisicated weaponry that could do that. Most large scale wars have large civilian casualties, especially when fought in high density areas. If a large chunk of those civilians could go to Egypt, then the rate of civilian casualties would fall. If for whatever reason, Gazans want to stay and have Hamas members stay in their homes, in their schools, in their hospitals. Can you act surprised when they get targeted.

The Ukraine and Russia war is different geo polically. And most of the war is taking part in trenches out in the fields. Usually civilians are evacuated from towns as the war intensifies. Generally Ukraine army don't occupy people's homes that they sleep in, like Hamas do. But hamas is a terrorist organisation, and don't have any moral standards. To hamas, Gazan lives are cheap. It wants them to die so that they can run their PR campaign abroad. That's heavily sponsored by neighbouring countries, who also want to see Israel's name dragged through the mud.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233044#Comment_122233044

See again you're deflecting away from war crimes Israel are committing with an excuse of geopolitics and civilians not moving out of the way of bombs.

There is sophisticated weaponry, Israel demonstrated they could take out a major target without killing scores of innocent civilians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_airstrike_on_the_Iranian_consulate_in_Damascus

Israel choose to drop unguided 2000lb bombs on Gaza. There's zero reason for that unless you want the maximum destruction.

A more densely populated city (even after evacuation) with a terrorist group using human shields and still less civilian deaths: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_%282016%E2%80%932017%29

It can be done, Israel chooses not to. They choose to cause the most innocent civilian damage possible.

sock.rocker*

edit…

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232783#Comment_122232783

No. Egypt are not complicit. But interestingly you state in another post that Egypt supports Hamas -you seem to be a very disingenuous poster

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232898#Comment_122232898

Egypt opening their borders to the IDF controlled Gaza border would result in the expulsion of the entire population of Gaza into refugee camps inside Egypt under the guise of voluntary relocation but in reality fleeing even more intensive Israeli bombardment forcing them over a border that is suddenly unguarded by the IDF or even more cynically described as humanitarian relief by IDF (Israeli extensive propaganda machine would be on steroids). Displaced Palestinians in neighbouring countries have not been allowed the right of return going back generations at this stage.

So no Egypt won't facilitate Israels attempt at ethnic cleansing - unfortunately Israel will have to continue to get blood on its hands to achieve its evil aims against the Palestinian people

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233254#Comment_122233254

You're using gazans as a pawn in your war. You have zero interest in the well being of Gazans. The egypt border is closed, no aid in and no Gazans can cross. And you couldn't care less.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233044#Comment_122233044

So you support the ethic cleansing of Gaza "if a large chunk of those civilians could go to Egypt, then the civilian casualties would fall" - I think you must have attended your first class of ethnic cleansing 101. Scary stuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233267#Comment_122233267

You don't know what ethnic cleansing means, if a portion of the population move to another country temporarily, that's not ethnic cleansing. The majority would still be in Gaza, the culture and traditions are not been wiped out.

halkar

The only goal Israel has is to anex Gaza. Who lives who dies they don't care. They will force out majority of Palestinian to neighbouring countries or West Bank one way or other. The ones left will live in refugee camps in Rafah where they will turn it in to concentration camps with their tight controls while Israelis partying on Gaza beaches.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233263#Comment_122233263

You are a very disingenuous poster with multiple strawman and outright lies. But I know also realise you actually dont know what youre talking about so im less inclined to debate with you now - disappointing!

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233299#Comment_122233299

Haha, I think you actually believe it would be temporary. Those who are foolish enough not to learn from history...

nacho libre

4 Israeli hostages were freed in an operation inside a refugeee camp. I see the BBC has confirmed it.