Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509501#Comment_122509501

Actually they do. We had Peggy justifying it on the basis that it was required for Israel 's defense. I see it regularly on the you tube comment section. You'll see excuses along the following lines: the land is theirs anyway; There is no such thing as Palestine;

All Palestinians are Hamas terrorists.

WEST

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509493#Comment_122509493

So far during August, we have the below reports from BBC. In many other videos we can see the IDF (who act on behalf of Israel) protecting the settlers while they attack\kill Palestinians and damage their property. Israel are doing these acts of terror and it is all caught on camera for the world to see. Swap, the words Israeli and Palestinian in the below headings to get the other sides perspective.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c623zkwd04qo

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd735zvg1q9o Israeli soldiers stated they had “encountered armed terrorists” and that “a customs officer Abdel Nasser was killed during exchanges of fire”. However, CCTV footage shows that this statement is false. Instead, Abdel Nasser was murdered in cold blood.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgrr0k7xkyo

Also from June, Israeli army strapped wounded Palestinian to military vehicle.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjqq5n8911do

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509493#Comment_122509493

It sure is. Indiscriminate shootings and bombings just like the terrorist group Hamas is. Israel is actually worse because it has US support and can get away with it.

thereiver

Hamas has said it does not want to meet and discuss a cease fire meanwhile causalitys in gaza are over 40k .Biden is going to be retired in a few months There's not much chance of America doing much about the crisis before the presidential election Iran and other groups have been meeting to decide what action to take in regard to attacking Israel so the outlook

at the moment is bleak . I think America is a democratic society but various politicians support Israel and Israel relys on a large supply of weapons from America there's only a small percent difference in the polls between trump and Harris so there's no sign of a change in policy at the moment in regard to the war in gaza

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507364#Comment_122507364

There's been no 2,100 toddlers 'murdered' in Gaza. Thats a war zone and its terrible that theyve been killed from bombs ect. But not even Hamas are screaming they were murdered because they havent.

There was toddlers actually coldly 'murdered ' in Israel on October 7th in kindergartens and homes.. Shot and bashed and broken by Palestinians.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511378#Comment_122511378

by your same logic October 7 was an act of war and they weren’t murdered.

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511967#Comment_122511967

No . You're completely wrong. For murder there has to be some sort of 'intent'. Babies , kids civilians get killed in wars . It's sad. It's still not murder. Check out the Geneva convention. What happened on October 7th was murder..plain and simple. Wanton murder, rape and burning. But you know all this.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511378#Comment_122511378

Sure if Hamas screamed they were murdered, people defending the IDF would just say it's Hamas, you can't believe them.

Dropping a 2000lb bomb onto an apartment block with complete disregard for civilian casualties is murder. No different than a gunman opening fire on a crowd of people with the aim to hit 1 target but kills a dozen innocent people.

Yes civilians do get killed in war, but when one side is being investigated for genocide (shows intent) it's very hard to play the self defense or 'collateral damage' card.

When a country is deliberately committing war crimes and targeting and destroying civilian infrastructure (university and water pumping station) which have zero military goals and zero terrorists in them, you can't just turn around and say they don't target civilians.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511378#Comment_122511378

I really wish you`d stop defending Israel and the IDF - Its getting tiresome listening to you.

There were 2 toddlers killed on the 8th October and 14 children under 10 - by your own logic they werent murdered as this conflict has been going on for decades.They were casualties of war.

Just because Israel says its at war doesnt justify Israel killing (murdering) 2100 children never mind 40,000 Palestinians.

Both sides are equally as scummy as the other - the only difference is Israel has the backing of the US so is free to bomb schools, hospitals, refugee camps with 2000 kg bombs without any repercussions - so called "precision strikes" - pull the other one - they know exactly what they are doing and who they are bombing.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512394#Comment_122512394

Yes . We would see the hypocrisy on full display from the apologists if a 2,000 pound bomb was dropped on a Tel Aviv suburb with the disclaimer that the target was a military facility; therefore there was no intent to kill civilians

Bobeagleburger

I'm fully expecting some sort of ceasefire in place for US election time. When the election is over it could kick off again. Hopefully not.

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512662#Comment_122512662

Bizarre Post really bizarre but emblematic of many in Ireland. No where in my logic can you garner succour for your 2nd paragraph. You know that.

A 2000lb bomb dropped on an apartment block containing a terrorist cell planning murder which results in the deaths of civilians including children isn't necessarily illegal nor murder in the 'Laws of War'. That's a fact.

Killing and raping defenceless civilians and kids by stabbing...shooting and burning. That my left wing friends is murder. Murder condoned by many in the general population in Gaza and the West Bank unfortunately . 80%. Id say if you took a poll in Dublin tomorrow.. there'dbe a fair percentage of educated people that would say 'Yes October 7th was justified '. That's what our media and education system has done to people.. turned them into left wing extremists..hostile to Judeo western culture yet living and benefiting from that amazing culture. Sad stuff.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512974#Comment_122512974

The IDF drop bombs on family homes to kill people they (using AI) have identified as Hamas members as they return home. They do this and wipe out any civilians in the building and surrounding houses

('Wheres daddy')

If Hamas blew up residential houses because an enlisted member of the IDF came home from work, that would be rightly described as terrorism

When the IRA blew up pubs full of civilians because there were some English military or RUC officers drinking in them, that was terrorism

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512974#Comment_122512974

Actually dropping a 2000lb bomb to kill one person is completely against the "Laws of war" which is what Israel is doing on a daily basis. If it wasnt against the "Laws of war" then there would be no talk of an arrest warrant being requested for the leaders of Israel - but then again Israel doesnt recognize the ICC which is another cop out.

Israel are just killing with impunity and they know they can get away with it. Disproportionate killing of civilians , committing genocide as long as this war goes on.

Ive been to Israel and Palestine and while you may assume that 80% of the population might think the 8th of October was justified Id be of the opinion that while it wasnt justified I can understand why it happened. Palestine is the biggest open air prison in the world - for example while we were there there was a couple of minor rocket attacks on Israel - the israelis turned off the water and power to Palestine for 2 weeks. This type of stuff is just breeding more Hamas and Hezbollah fighters. As will this war - Israel has stated that the reason for this war is to wipe out Hamas - Id argue that they are just going to increase its numbers and so the cycle goes on and on forever.

A two state solution is the only solution to the problems in the region.

Proportionality

It is prohibited to launch an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

PeggyShippen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513110#Comment_122513110

That 'proportionality' paragraph is one I'd be personally familiar with. It's an area that can be difficult to interpret really . If a planner was in the last stages of planning an ambush then it could reasonably be argued that him, his family and house can be destroyed to prevent loss of life in his enemy. It's all alot more complicated than 'killing babies' in a bombing raid = murder. It doesn't.

Iv been to Israel and the West Bank many times. From Nablus to Eilat ...north to south...east to West. If people were dropping an 'occasional' rocket near my family I'd be advocating alot tougher action than the Israelis have. I'd say alot of Irish people would find that occasional rocket amd run to a bomb shelter an outrageous occurance.

A word on the ICC. It's a biased joke of an organisation. The UN is the same.. All these international organisations are packed up the rafters with lefties ,greens and worse. They are no use.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512205#Comment_122512205

Show me the where the bombings in Gaza had no intent to murder innocents? If you drop a 2,000 bomb on a densely populated area then it's definitely murder. Especially when those innocents are living in tents. No other word for it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122512205#Comment_122512205

war has no intent? I’ve heard it all

nacho libre

We have seen videos of civilians being murdered in cold blood while waving white flags. Also using Palestinians as shields is clear intent and a violation of the Geneva Convention. It's great to cite the Geneva convention when it suits our purposes but slate organisations that try to uphold these principles as a joke when it doesn't. You know who else views the ICJ as a joke and tends to disregard the Geneva convention when it suits? Vladimir Putin, that's who.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509255#Comment_122509255

Well there's disagreements over political issues, which I don't let impact relationships, but then there's real against humanity sort of stuff where you just cannot look past it.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513436#Comment_122513436

https://www.thejournal.ie/gaza-ceasefire-deal-talks-6465444-Aug2024/

Its not murder - 15 people from the same family killed - definitely not murder.

tayto lover

The entire world now knows exactly how Israel has behaved and they have lost all respect. They can no longer fool the world when playing the victim card. All credibility is lost. Israel is now probably the world's most hated nation.

Balagan1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513051#Comment_122513051

"The IDF drop bombs on family homes to kill people they (using AI) have identified as Hamas members as they return home. They do this and wipe out any civilians in the building and surrounding houses…"

Hamas militants do not go out to "work" much since 7 October. They "work" from home.

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122515404#Comment_122515404

What point do you think you are making with posts like that? I just saw a video of the IDF shooting a horse, what excuses would you make about that?

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122515404#Comment_122515404

And if this justification was used for the indiscriminate killing of Israelis you and the people thanking your post would be against it. Israeli civilian life is worth more, Palestinians are expendable it seems. This is why Israel's closest ally has repeatedly criticised Israel for not doing enough to minimise civilian deaths. It's likely the reason why the ICJ prosecutor is seeking warrants for war crimes. No doubt you have similar views to Peggy on the ICJ because it's Israel being held to account. Yet I bet you didn't view the ICC as worthy of derision for bringing war crime charges against Putin.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516003#Comment_122516003

The Horse was deemed to be a member of Hamas according to AI so its fine.

Balagan1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516066#Comment_122516066

But it was used by Hamas as justification for the indiscriminate killings on Oct 7th! See clip below from that horror Osama Hamdan. Any non military slaughtered on that day are "so-called civilians". All women,children, old people in the vicinity of a soldier or militant are "necessary sacrifices". Their own included. Sinwar trained them well.

https://x.com/Osint613/status/1786078828785246384

Balagan1

Hamdan doesn't like to be asked about "necessary sacrifices" either. But, hey, the Mods set out at beginning of this thread that we need to accept that others may hold views different to our own. Right?

https://x.com/jimsciutto/status/1824911792746725405

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122515404#Comment_122515404

Well for someone who puts so much effort into posting guff and regurgitating hasbara on this thread, how do you manage to not understand the difference between the distinction between the terms "Hamas member" and "Hamas militants"?

Hamas is/was the government of Gaza. It was the political and social infrastructure for the strip. All health, education, services etc. would have been ultimately under their authority. Any person who had any type of public sector job could have been technically categorised as a "Hamas member" simply because they got up in the morning and went to take care of sick people as a nurse in the local hospital. That same nurse, returning from the hospital tonight after another day of trying to comfort infant missile victims with amputated limbs would probably be categorised as a "Hamas worker" returning to her home.

You probably toe the line that every Palestinian, old or infant, male or female, deserves to die (possibly prolonged and painful) deaths because they are "all Hamas" by birth. You are deliberately trying to conflate issues and terms in order to complete "othering" as a means to justify genocide of people you are happy to see die just because of their ethnic/religious category.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516122#Comment_122516122

As has been pointed out to you Sinwar should be in the dock alongside Bibi. You seem to be essentially using the atrocities carried out on October 7th to excuse any Israelis crime there after. Yes we may have used Palestnians as human shields, but October 7th. We shot civilians in cold blood, but October 7th..

We raped detainees, but October 7th...

If Israel is a democracy that adheres to international law that's not how it works.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122516187#Comment_122516187

This is a very good point actually, because it's essentially mirrors the thinking of Hamas when you analyse it. Dehumanise them first, so then you can justify your actions against them to yourself. That's how the Hamas operatives were able to do what they did on October 7th. It's why an IDF soilder can laugh about using a Palestinian as a human shield and how people can protest against a sexual abuser of a Palestinian detainee being held to account