Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240057#Comment_121240057

I don't have to explain it because I don't agree with it.

Also being factual, given the unprecedented amount of ordanance being dropped on Gaza, it's frankly a miracle more people have not been killed. And you are completely correct, today's death toll is absolutely not indictative of what the final death toll would be even if hostilities ended at this exact moment.

Human life is not cheap, and should never be considered cheap regardless of context.

But given the sustained, high intensity of bombing in such a dense urban population it's a miracle the figure is in the low thousands, awful as that is.

As I have said before, look at the Second World War, where in some cases up to 100 thousand were killed in a single bombing raid in a matter of hours as a result of genuine, indiscriminate bombing specifically targetting civilians.

War in all forms is utterly abhorrent. And I don't think - and I'm not saying you said this - that Israel takes any "joy" in this or has been "waiting for this day" as some people suggest. They are as sick and tired of death and war as anyone as a nation that has gone through existential wars multiple times.

Though a very good point was raised earlier about Israel's disasterous communications around this war, because regardless of their ultimate intention, which is clearly to eradicate Hamas, there's been vague statements, no clear aims, and completely unacceptable statements that more or less come across as a burning desire to inflict retribution in a general rather than targetted sense (ie, "We want to crush, destroy Hamas and seperate that vile ideaology from the Palestinian people of Gaza")

I would hope that this horrific mess will ultimately lead to a serious talk about a serious solution of a peaceful solution and future, but unfortunately it's not remotely possible with Hamas in the picture, no more than it would be realistic for the USA to sit at a table with ISIS.

Gatling

Your question was already answered,

Sanctions are collective punishment no and if or buts about it ,and yes people complained about businesss including food producers and pharmaceutical were still selling to the Russians.

Ukraine has already attacked Russian cities several as well documented and celebrated on the other thread as you well know,

So you think that they should risk hundreds of lives to search hundreds if not thousands trying to detain a single or multiple armed terrorists,

I'd imagine that if you were actually a soldier in an active warzone and you were actually tasked with attacking a building with an unknown number of heavyily armed terrorists inside would you Risk your life and the lifes of all your fellow soldiers or if you had the option to call in an airstrike which one are you choosing

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240086#Comment_121240086

Ukraine has not attacked and killed thousands of civilians. That was my point. Could you hold them up morally if they killed 2k civilians in Belgorod for example? Despite Russian declaring war on them, killing thousands of Ukrainians, kidnapping children, committing mass war crimes on them etc... Some would argue they would be justified.

But 2k civilians in Gaza, killed by Israel is different? You can still stand by Israel?

So the western word is committing war crimes against North Korea and Iran with their sanctions? That's collective punishment?

The EU is committing war crimes against Russia, that's how you wanna spin this?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239904#Comment_121239904

Germany had been one of the most civilized states in the world prior to them committing genocide. Then, through propaganda they portrayed a minority as less than human, animals, Untermenschen. You know the rest.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240022#Comment_121240022

Some parallels between your neck of the woods and the current conflict.

During the 1641 rebellion the “Laggan Army” used atrocity propaganda with great effect to justify the massacre the Irish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laggan_Army

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240100#Comment_121240100

A completely fair point but Israel has never demonstrated even the vaguest inkling towards genocide.

One civilian death is one too many, I think most people would agree.

But less Palestinians have died in 7 decades then were killed in a few weeks in Germany's camp system.

That doesn't mean it's OK that Palestinian civilians have beem killed in the numbers they have but "genocide" is not an appropriate word. Inhumane, unacceptable, unjustified, whatever else, are all words I have zero issue with when people express their opinion.

Genocide is among the ultimate of despicable crimes, and let's not lose the meaning of the phrase, which is happening all too often these days. Israel hasn't done that, has never done that,and is not currently doing that.

That does not mean that criticism of Israel being too accepting of civilian deaths as collateral is not completely valid.

applehunter

Interesting how my recent YouTube watches forward to Ben Shaprio videos.

I have no interest in Ben Shaprio's opinion. He is a zionist Jew.

Gatling

How easy it is for people to get tripped up on war ,

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240105#Comment_121240105

I don’t agree.

Past Israeli cabinet members have called for genocide and present ones have called for Palestinian people to be wiped off the face of the earth and villages eradicated. Members of the current Israeli government share views about the Palestinians that are not dissimilar to views in 1930s Germany about minorities.

These people are in coalition government in Israel!

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-lawmakers-call-genocide-palestinians-gets-thousands-facebook-likes

https://www.vox.com/world/2023/1/20/23561464/israel-new-right-wing-government-extreme-protests-netanyahu-biden-ben-gvir

RonanDonegal1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240104#Comment_121240104

A more apt comparison surely would the Nazi Germany attempting to destroy the Jews in WW2 seeing as this is what Hamas explicitly want.

But yeah, great googling....Here is another massacre from the medieval times in Ireland completely unrelated to the current conflict:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portadown_massacre

"The Portadown massacre took place in November 1641 at Portadown, County Armagh, during the Irish Rebellion of 1641. Irish Catholic rebels, likely under the command of Toole McCann, killed about 100 British Protestant settlers by forcing them off the bridge into the River Bann, and shooting those who tried to swim to safety. The settlers were being marched east from a prison camp at Loughgall. This was the biggest massacre of Protestants during the rebellion, and one of the bloodiest during the Irish Confederate Wars. The Portadown massacre, and others like it, terrified Protestants in Ireland and Great Britain, and were used to justify the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland and later to lobby against Catholic rights."

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240108#Comment_121240108

He's a piece of crap but he said something remarkably valid at some point.

Facts don't care about feelings.

It's a simple message but it's a powerful one.

Facts aren't opinion. They just are. I know some people abuse the concept of facts horrifically in any given debate but I personally loathe when people conflate the stating of facts with opinion or support of said fact.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240112#Comment_121240112

Not going to argue that, I will be perfectly honest, I'm not in the know about Israeli politics and wouldn't pretend to be, nor even like to offer an opinion. But I was speaking in terms of the overall state of Israel and historical precedent.

God knows if we cherry-picked the statements of specific members of our Oireachtas, cabinet or not, as representative of state policy you could paint a very unfortunate picture.

applehunter

@Homelander

You are living in a fariytale.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240120#Comment_121240120

Why's that? Or rather, why do you think that. Because honestly I would say I'm the polar opposite, I look at the world the exact way it is, not the way it should be.

applehunter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240123#Comment_121240123

I think the Iraq War was 97% off the back of US military intelligence. These US intelligence agencies were infiltrated by Zionists.

The Iraq invision coincidently benefited Israel.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240130#Comment_121240130

OK? I have no issue with that being your opinion. I'm not even going to comment on it directly because it - internal American politics - is not an area I'm that knowledgable about and wouldn't pretend otherwise.

If it matters I don't support the Iraq invasion and quite frankly the alternative to Saddam has resulted in incalcuably more civilian casulties and directly gave rise to not only ISIS, but a wide spectrum of other issues.

That not I would actually endorse Saddam, flaming garbage that he was, but it was a case of chosing the **** over the shovel.

But the point I made remains. Israel is a major military powerhouse, staunchly pro-USA, incidentally with culture and society that reflects the Western world, in the Middle East, a rabidly anti-USA region.

You don't need to be Jewish to see the value in that from the USA point of view and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise. So I completely reject views that claim that US support for Israel stems purely from Jewish lobby groups.

I don't see how that makes me live in a fairytale world.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240113#Comment_121240113

Believe it or not, Hamas’ explicit stated aim is not to destroy the Jews, whom Palestinians lived alongside for centuries, but with the Jewish state.

From their own charter stating their aims and beliefs:

“Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.”

Obviously like all politicians/terrorists you can take what they say with a large dose of salt but unlike the Nazis, nowhere in their charter do they call for the “destruction of the Jews”.

Recent events however make that ring very hollow.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240113#Comment_121240113

Yes, very relevant to the current conflict, especially this line.

”Though a supporter of British rule in Ireland, 19th century historian William Lecky wrote "it is far from clear on which side the balance of cruelty rests".

“The massacre featured prominently in English Parliamentarian atrocity propaganda in the 1640s, most famously in John Temple's The Irish Rebellion(1646). Temple used the massacres at Portadown and elsewhere to lobby for the military re-conquest of Ireland and the segregation of Irish Catholics from British Protestants.”

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240135#Comment_121240135

Fair point.

However that's an update to the previous charter which did call for the complete eradication of Israel as a state. And that is just not realistic and sets the framework for eternal conflict.

The current charter accepts the 1967 borders which is a radical departure from the older charter. And in itself I would imagine most people would find somewhat credible and reasonble.

So, fair enough, they have moderated their image in the past 15 odd years or whatever it is since the "modernisation" of their more hardline charter.

But combine that previous charter - the destruction of Israel - with last weekends offensive, which aimed at maximum civilian casulties.

I don't think it's any reach to see why people still see the prior charter as their real aims.

applehunter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240134#Comment_121240134

In Ireland we are bringing in these "Hate Speach" laws. A lot of talk about the Western world.

I think the Westerrn world needs a kick up the hole.

applehunter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJG0X6V7irE&list=PLIcuwOSgLl7OzUE2D4gEjxkmmgt3ytoBc

applehunter

Americans like Joe Sobran were treated like the extremists because they questioned a Jewish spy (Jonathan Pollard)

THis was in the 1980s

Cato the Elder

Both sides truly are horrible. It's like the perfectly divisive conflict where people have the choice of supporting planters or terrorists.

Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239957#Comment_121239957

Yip, that’s the take away from the last week. Sigh.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240022#Comment_121240022

It's rare enough for someone to refer to the Laggan valley.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240108#Comment_121240108

How sad for you. The rest of the world isn't interested in your Youtube video feed issues, ffs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239885#Comment_121239885

Bottom line is Hamas are a terrorist organisation. Indiscriminate rocket attacks. Murders of civilians. Suppression of their own population. Declaration that their neighbours are to be eliminated.

Terrorists.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240260#Comment_121240260

Adding to the fact that Arabs who live in Israel have better human rights than Arabs living in pretty much any other Arab state especially if female or gay.

Unbelievable garbage on here about human rights. Why don't they move to Saudi if they want a fair shake? Can't believe people vote for Boyd Barrett and his ilk chaps a foreman at the puzzle factory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240135#Comment_121240135

Believe it or not, Hamas’ explicit stated aim is not to destroy the Jews, whom Palestinians lived alongside for centuries, but with the Jewish state.

That doesn't sit well with what Hamas did last weekend.

Nor what would have happened if Israel were not militarily backed by the US.

It's naivety in the extreme to believe Hamas are a reformed Jihadist extremist organisation.

Bishop of hope

The poster acknowledged your point in his post really.

Israel are a strong military country, but to try to make all the people of gaza to shift because of a terrorist attack is extreme. Personally i feel there is only one oppressor in the conflict and its always been Israel, a forced state!

Danzy

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/15/victim-blaming-is-a-crime-to-so-many-progressives-except-when-it-comes-to-jews

A good read.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240303#Comment_121240303

And what are the reasons that Israel was a "forced state" in the first place?

Bishop of hope

Sure tell me.

If you go back in history the reasoning is there behind it, but is it justifiable?

If being of a certain religion is reasoning for setting up a state forcibly then surely its going to cause problems.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240343#Comment_121240343

Israel was set up by democratic mandate from the UN in 1948. The violence came after that.

Bishop of hope

You still didn't answer whether it's justifiable or not in your opinion?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240343#Comment_121240343

It's not just because they were "a certain religion" though is it? I mean, terrible things happened. And what is happening around the world right now just emphasizes why Israel was set up in the first place IMO

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240381#Comment_121240381

UN!

snooze

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240381#Comment_121240381

Where the people that lived in what is now Israel had no vote and all neighbours voted no. Even the British abstained from the vote.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240303#Comment_121240303

A really good question to ask yourself is If Hamas laid down it arms and stopped attacking Israel what would happen.

On the other hand if Israel disarmed it's military and had no army what would happen.

In the first case if Hamas ceased attacking Israel the IDF would not be going into Gaza.

If Israel had military the Arab nation and the Palestinian would sweep the complete Jewish nation into the sea.

People would need to remember that

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240435#Comment_121240435

"democratic mandate" is a very hollow term when the people who have to put up with the result have no say.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240446#Comment_121240446

It's like if I put in planning permission to build a massive facility on someones farm down the country which is objected to by all around but the planning passes because more people not in the immediate vicinity approved it.

Bishop of hope

It's not because they were a certain religion????

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240391#Comment_121240391

It's not because they were a certain religion????

Mullinabreena

https://youtu.be/WxXJOqqNFVM?si=spgV1v76T1AsOhZa

Peter Zeihan take on things

tom1ie

So from looking at bbc world news they are saying there is an aid shipment stuck at the border between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.

So who is blocking the aid shipment? Israel?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240489#Comment_121240489

I'm not really sure what this (yet another) sideline of the thread is about, but if it's referring to the treatment meted out to the Jews in Europe during the 40's, it had nothing to do with religion. But, rather, it was about ethnicity and race. Being a "Jew" means different things to different Jews. One can be a Jew, as in the practice of the religious observations, and also be a Jew because of their perceived bloodline. Some Jews consider themselves Jewish because of their ethnic and racial background, even if they are secular and, in fact, most European and American Jews aren't religious at all. I have Israeli friends who are "Jewish", but they are atheist and despise religion. They consider themselves Jews because of their ethic makeup. Not because they go to a Synagogue on Shabbat. They make the joke that they are Jew-"ish".

In Europe, the Nazis targeted the Jews, not because of any religious concerns, they didn't give a toss about that. They singled out the Jew because of racial hierarchical reasons and political ties to Bolshevism. Whether a particular Jew was religious or not meant nothing to them.

Israel was set up because the Jewish diaspora around Europe had been a headache for everyone concerned since the Romans kicked the Jews out of Judea in 70AD and the end result was the holocaust during the Second World War. But it wasn't set up because of Religion. It was set up to give Jews, of all nationality, a homeland.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239999#Comment_121239999

Seriously? So if the British announced a balfour treaty that declared that because St Patrick originally came from Wales that there are a large contingent of Welsh that felt tied to Dublin and want to live in Dublin, and as I result they will establish a state for them there. But don't worry, we'll offer a state elsewhere to house the 1.5 million people affected. You'd find that a reasonable solution?

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240495#Comment_121240495

That guy is a looper on any given subject

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240430#Comment_121240430

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240446#Comment_121240446

UN does something anti-Israel (Zionism as racism, address by Arafat): Go, UN, Go!

UN does something pro-Israel (vote for its founding): Bad, UN, Bad!

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240680#Comment_121240680

Nobody has said that.