Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261235#Comment_121261235

Did anyone 'win' any of the 'wars' fought since 1948, in reality though, or older, or is it all just the same mess o' potamia?

Longing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261236#Comment_121261236

Is that a trick question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261226#Comment_121261226

Shocking stuff. Add Fox News to the cult of Trump and the two of them together have knocked the quality of debate in the US down into the sewer.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261240#Comment_121261240

Is THIS a trick question?

If Israel has poorly defined victory condition they're veering toward total quagmire if they choose to press on, quagmire which may cost trillions, and tens of thousands of lives in short order, and millions of people affected. This is exactly where the US charged headlong after 9/11, staggering cost of life and economy.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261233#Comment_121261233

What is proportional response to the the mass slaughtering of 1300 people,

9/11 brought 20 years of war across multiple countries ,last week people were already condemning Israel while the bodies of the massive Terrorist attack were still warm,

In your opinion what would be your response if you had to do something to such an attack

Longing

@Overheal Did anyone 'win' any of the 'wars' fought since 1948

This. What do you mean.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261228#Comment_121261228

Who do you think they would put first themselves or the original Joe Palestinian

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261226#Comment_121261226

I expected more from Jimmy the scum bag.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261254#Comment_121261254

Falklands?

greenpilot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261181#Comment_121261181

Not necessarily. Iranian aerospace engineers are some of the best in the world. They've reversed-engineered and developed some pretty potent weaponry over the last few years. They launched another satellite only a few weeks ago. They certainly wouldn't win a fight, but they are quite capable of giving both the US and Israel a very bloody nose. They've become masters at improving western tech. Even their version of the Exocet anti-ship missile is eons ahead of the original weapon, which as old as it is, could very easily knock some holes in hulls, phalanx or not.

keynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261245#Comment_121261245

Israel is only a tiny sliver of land (relative to Middle East) and it's reckless to go antagonising all of their Arab neighbours. No assurance either that a future US administration or West will continue their support. These have their own domestic problems and will soon tire of indulging far right zealots in Tel Avi.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261275#Comment_121261275

Well sure the falklands -- but in all seriousness a lot of people still died in that war too.

I meant more like the quagmire Israel faces if it think it can march in and route out hamas, do so in a way that is both crippling and not a PR nightmare or international/retaliatory blowback, and in such a way that ensures some form of an exit strategy (annexation unlikely, but not out of the realm) which is equally tethered to some semblance of reality and real world conditions, taking the entire globe of chaotics into account. (And not taking innocent lives as 'collateral damage' as a plus)

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261251#Comment_121261251

Ya 1000+ were civilians, grenades pushed down through the air vents of bomb shelters, young adults slaughtered at a concert. I still see the young lady running in the red dress and the terrorist going to the back of a car to shoot the person lying on the ground.

But straight away it was Israel's fault. F@@king butcher's. Now a hospital bombed by Israel that had 1k deaths has only 50ish because it's a failed Palestinian terrorist rocket.

And we still have posters on here trying to claim it was an ID missile. Unless the Israeli have laser technology it's all bullsh!t

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261251#Comment_121261251

Well I would probably start by not meekly complying with the one blatantly obvious thing that the people who perpetrated the attack wanted me to do — which is precisely what the Israelis have done. Call me crazy, but giving your opponents a double victory of a huge attack and then immediately doing what they clearly are hoping you will do is not what I would call proportionate, if intelligence is a component of proportionality.

Proportionality also means taking into account your position, which gives you the leverage to fight a longer, smarter war. After all — who has the infinitely stronger army? Who commands the skies with an air force and the Iron Dome? Who commands the land with tanks and mechanised infantry? Who commands the sea with gunships and powerful military allies standing guard? Who has the backing of the world's strongest military alliance? Who has complete strategic dominance over an enemy penned into a surrounded, blockaded strip of land and having only limited capability to make outward incursions? Who is capable of invading the other with ease if they wanted to?

Put the answers of all those questions together and I don't see how one comes to any other conclusion than the Israelis are not even thinking sanely about how they are going about this, never mind proportionately.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261276#Comment_121261276

This maybe true,but push come to shove the US and Israel have the ability to hit Iran extremely hard, from All area of operations, Israel has already shown they can fly to Tehran hit targets and leave pretty much unopposed, they can have thousands of missles but unless you can actually hit the intended targets immediately then they will have lost before it even starts, and remember the regime isn't exactly popular with its own population right now , someone hits the revolutionary guards and other military forces things will change fairly rapidly on the ground,

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261293#Comment_121261293

Unless the Israeli have laser technology

Morgan Freeman Narrator: The Israelis have laser technology

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2023/3/21/israeli-made-high-energy-laser-makes-debut

Note that reports are widely disputed that Iron Beam, reportedly a real thing per Reuters, was used in the last few days. It was reportedly not used, and Arma 3 footage was reportedly shared around.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/lockheed-martin-israels-rafael-develop-laser-weapon-system-2022-12-05/

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/clip-shows-arma-3-gameplay-not-israels-laser-weapon-system-2023-10-18/

Antipathetic

https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/1715042871848391012?t=oBv_AkMVAjxIaH36pYhGCw&s=19

Is probably been taken down now but still a major f up by the White House if the story is true if I'm not mistaken, it was a post on Instagram.

No asking you to share but anyone here with an Instagram account. Can you confirm if this is true or not? That is if the post is still up.

And also if you thought now was bad for fake videos on pictures. Just wait until this becomes more widely available. We really should try and stick to posting from legitimate sources such as news agencies.

https://twitter.com/Lauren_Southern/status/1715074648940130312?t=whaCXABh4yRRRuV3NsBzHw&s=19

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261293#Comment_121261293

It's down to 10+ dead in the hospital, down from 1000 , thats a pretty spectacular lie and false claim , 200-300-500-800-1000 - 10 if even that's true and yet people are still claiming it could only have been an Israeli airstrike, rather than admit we got it wrong they keep expanding on the lie,

It's a Hill Called Little big horn

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261293#Comment_121261293

The October 7th attacks didn't come out of nowhere. Israel under Netanyahu is a far right authoritarian and apartheid state - the Hamas terrorists decided to up the ante considerably by killing perhaps 1500 Israelis, but it was already a very violent and ugly situation, with the Netanyahu regime itself behaving disgracefully long before this (and since).

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261305#Comment_121261305

If you can't believe a twitter account called End Wokeness, who can you believe.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261288#Comment_121261288

Agreed.

On a different point, I find it strange that many posters accept Israeli figures without a single question.

Take for example the figure of 1500 dead Hamas fighters recovered as reported on the morning of 10th October. Did one of the deadliest terror attacks of all time, in which the IDF took hours to respond, really result in the deaths of more attackers than attacked?

It seems surprising that a group of heavily armed terrorists in a surprise attack, intent , as we are told, on killing as many people as possible, would not murder at least one person each. Not to mention the hundreds of fighters who took part in the attack who returned safely to Gaza.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/hamas-prepared-for-a-long-war-with-israel-as-concerns-for-hostages-in-gaza-grow

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261305#Comment_121261305

I am not following how this is a dox. A photo op with the POTUS in a joint conference area, I think they knew their faces were being plastered across the globe. Not exactly selfies in the SCIF or Joe going out to meet them in the bush. There is zero indication the persons photographed are involved in anything to do with Hostages. In fact it was Delta Force way back when that botched a rescue attempt during the Iranian hostage crisis, it was such a multifactor failure that it triggered the formation of Seal Team Six, and JSOC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Force

I doubt very much Delta Force if imaged as shown, is engaged in hostage ops, or is operating in an area they're as liable than anyone else in US military uniforms to be targeted by militants. Least of all if they took a pizza break to go hang with the President in Tel Aviv.

Twitter is a cesspool, lies are engagement. Look at the name of the account.

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261320#Comment_121261320

The people defending the kibbutzes (what’s the plural?) put up a fight. But the vast number were engaged by the army, the fighting was still going on for days afterwards.

Gatling

This mentality sounds awfully familiar, person in the UK tearing down posters of missing people kidnapped by Hamas during the recent Terrorist attack.

No evidence of any rapes she claims

https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1715149381425348756?s=20

If it was an Arab poster being removed she would be crying Islamophobia

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261379#Comment_121261379

Do you believe the Israeli Defence Figure of 1500 Hamas fighters bodies recovered by the morning of 10th October to be accurate?

A day later the IDF “bodies of 1500 Hamas fighters” had become an estimated 1000 Palestinian gunmen.

The force that attacked Israel on October 7th, was, according to the IDF, 2500 strong.

Was it not a disastrously unsuccessful surprise attack on civilians if more damage has been inflicted on the attackers than on those whom they have attacked?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-killed-least-1000-gaza-infiltrators-reinforcing-nationwide-military-2023-10-11/

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261320#Comment_121261320

The Palestinian terrorist's attacked the least densely inhabited part of Israel. Virtually all Israeli's have done National service with the army. The Concert was an easy target a large gathering of civilians with no access to weapons. But elsewhere as the news drifted out Kibbutz's and small villages defended themselves.

However isolated houses ended up being wiped out as they went to bomb shelters where the Palestinian terrorist's threw in fragmentation grenades.

At a guess Hamas did not commit all there most experienced fighters they bought along the mob with them. Inexperienced 17-20 year-old hanger on. Gave them an assault rifle and they were handy fodder to be used in the first assault.

The more veteran operatives would have abandoned them after 12-24 hours knowing what was coming.

Akbar Allah as the saying goes it's the answer these evil terrorist's give to everything that they do

And the Yanks vetoed sending in aid, the Brits abstained.

Monstrous.

https://twitter.com/EmergMedDr/status/1714604300033224753

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261412#Comment_121261412

Ashkerlon has a bigger population than Galway city and Sderot has a higher population density than London. These are not the least densely inhabited parts of Israel.

Any of the analysis I have seen certainly doesn’t point to the attackers being a mob of teenagers with assault rifles. That may have been the case 10 or 15 years ago but the Al Quassam brigades now resemble Hezbollah in training.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261309#Comment_121261309

What the f*ck are you talking about?

Even the Americans have said they believe between 100-300 were killed in the hospital.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/19/politics/us-intelligence-assessment-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-biden/card/blast-goes-off-at-orthodox-church-campus-in-gaza-oWLl1hHFxw5GmKWdXIIm

A blast went off at a building on the premises of the St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church campus in Gaza City on Thursday night while dozens of Palestinian families were sheltering there. Rescuers were pulling people out of the rubble, several of whom were injured, according to people at the site.

It's estimated about 500 people had been seeking refuge there.

Church is over 1,000 years old.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261325#Comment_121261325

Let me correct myself, White House admitted as much. Mea culpa all around.

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/white-house-apologizes-for-accidentally-outing-special-forces-troops-on-instagram-we-regret-the-error/

applehunter

Social media wasn’t around 9/12 - Iraq War.

The inordinate influence that the Jewish lobby has over USA, UK & Germany is ridiculous

Great to see it being shown the light of day.

Imagine having to stand up on the Senate floor to block legislation that would prevent critically needed humanitarian aid.

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/19/headlines/bernie_sanders_blocks_ban_on_us_aid_to_gaza_as_pentagon_sends_more_materiel_to_middle_east

In Washington, D.C., Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders has blocked legislation that would have effectively barred U.S. humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza. On Wednesday, Sanders objected when Florida Republican Senator Rick Scott tried to pass the so-called Stop Taxpayer Funding of Hamas Act by unanimous consent.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261461#Comment_121261461

Video about the topic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q--dqCzZbOQ

1) The WH already admitted to it. They fucked up. It's bad.

2) It's still stupid af of the internet to repost the image with the blacked out faces, but which still have loads of identifying marks on the men. 'for the sake of a hot take on operational security...'

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261316#Comment_121261316

100%. And you'd have to question how these attacks got such a head of steam. One of the main breeches was part of the wall being knocked by a loading shovel and hamas streaming through. In one of the most fortified and guarded sections of land on earth? With the backdrop of Netanyahus attempts to rewrite the constitution and the pushback he was receiving there's questions to be asked.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260973#Comment_121260973

Again, more than one thing can be true at the same time

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261113#Comment_121261113

Imagine if Israel had waited a week to react. Hypothetical, I know. Would there have been mass demonstrations condemning the slaughter of Israelis by Hamas and shouting for the end of Hamas?

I doubt it. There might've been a few smaller protests is all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261533#Comment_121261533

There would have been no mass demonstrations condemning Hamas. I think there's little doubt about that.

The massacre is considered a "justifiable defence" against Israel based on perceived grievances of the Palestinians. The reality is that Hamas acted on behalf of the Palestinians, without their consent, to conduct a massacre which was well received by some in the Western world - from San Francisco to London to Sydney (where, in the case of the latter, crowds were chanting "gas the Jews").

At its heart, there is a sickness in the movement against Israel.

I see sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261021#Comment_121261021

Keep making excuses for Israel murdering innocent babies.

I see sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260977#Comment_121260977

Israel did bomb the hospital. Not sure on the numbers.

Israel have murdered well over 1,000 children in the last 12 days.

They're making Putin look like a boy scout.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261563#Comment_121261563

Israel did bomb the hospital.

But they didn't. All the evidence shows that Palestinian Islamic Jihad was responsible for the attack - albeit through an errant, dodgy missile.

It reminds me of the strategies that people use to deny what is, for them, an uncomfortable truth.

Avoiding – The first line of defence against disruptive information is to avoid it.

Delegitimizing – The second line of defence is to attack the messenger, by undermining the credibility of the source.

Limiting – The final line of defence, if disruptive information cannot be avoided or delegitimized, is to rationalize and limit the impact of the disruptive ideas.

Repeating the line that "Israel bombed the hospital" is now an empty, meaningless chant, bereft of evidence - repeated in the belief and hope that it's true, or repeated with the ambition that other people will blindly believe it without question. In other words, it's propaganda.

Anyone who has taken the time to review the overwhelming catalogue of evidence understands perfectly well that it was Palestinian Islamic Jihad - not Israel - who was responsible for the hospital attack. Which didn't even hit a hospital, and didn't kill "500 - 1,000 people".

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1715058919763259904

"We shall do all efforts to bring our hostages, to bring our hostages [back] alive…" he said, but the "first and last priority" is destroying Hamas.

There you have it, that's what Israel thinks of hostages, it doesn't get any clearer or bolder than that.

They don't give a f*ck about hostages, they've merely used them for propaganda so they can accelerate their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and pillage more Palestinian land.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261563#Comment_121261563

No they did not...

Your welcome to provide any evidence to support your claim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261586#Comment_121261586

...so they can accelerate their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and pillage more Palestinian land.

Destroying Hamas's extensive underground tunnel system has nothing to do with "ethnic cleansing of Palestinians". It's a legitimate military target.

The IDF seem to be saying that Hamas cannot hide behind hostages to prevent the terrorist group's inevitable destruction.

There is no perfect solution here. But Hamas must be destroyed - for the sake of the Palestinians, too.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261595#Comment_121261595

False.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261601#Comment_121261601

If they destroy Hamas, they've won this war. That's their stated goal. HTH.

Igotadose

NY Times has a breakdown of the aide Biden will ask for:

$14bn - Israel

$60bn - Ukraine

The article doesn't mention anywhere else, but Taiwan support seems likely

Sigh. Boards and linking to websites. Here's the text from (https://archive.ph/vit5y)

President Biden tied together Israel and Ukraine, saying that both face threats of annihilation by tyrants and terrorists, as he made his case for providing aid to the countries in a rare Oval Office address on Thursday.

Providing the two U.S. allies with military and economic aid is in the interest of global stability and national security, he said. Mr. Biden is expected to request $14 billion in military and security aid to Israel for its war against Hamas and $60 billion for Ukraine to fight Russia, according to people familiar with the administration’s plans.

With the humanitarian situation growing more desperate in Gaza, the Rafah crossing between the territory and Egypt still hadn’t opened to evacuees and aid by Friday morning. Diplomats familiar with back-channel talks were pessimistic about it opening at all that day. There are still disagreements between Egypt and Israel on issues including how to institute a regular schedule of aid convoys, whether to allow in fuel and how to screen the convoys for arms.

The territory had already been living under a 16-year blockade by Israel and Egypt when Israel responded to the Hamas attack that killed 1,400 people this month with airstrikes and a “complete siege” of the enclave. Now, nearly half of the more than two million people living in Gaza have been displaced, according to the United Nations, and essential supplies like food and fuel are running out.

Previous agreements to provide aid have fallen through, but Mr. Biden said Israel and Egypt had agreed to let through trucks full of food, water and medicine that are stationed in Egypt.

On Israel’s northern border with Lebanon, Israel and Hezbollah, Hamas’s Iranian-backed ally, continued to trade fire amid fears that the war could expand. A U.S. warship on Thursday shot down three cruise missiles and several drones launched from Yemen that the Pentagon said might have been headed toward Israel.

American intelligence agencies have assessed that an explosion at a Gaza hospital on Tuesday killed 100 to 300 people, a more conservative estimate than that given by the health ministry run by Hamas, and that the hospital was lightly damaged, according to an unclassified report drafted by U.S. intelligence agencies on Wednesday.

Other developments:

Israel’s military said it had been in contact with the families of 203 people taken hostage, raising the number of people believed to be held in Gaza. The military also said that it had caught a Hamas gunman trying to return to Gaza, underscoring the possibility that attackers were still in Israel.

Satellite imagery shows that hundreds of Israeli tanks and armored vehicles have gathered about four miles north of the Erez Crossing into northern Gaza, in preparation for a potential ground invasion.

Gaza health officials said at a news conference that at least 3,785 people had been killed and more than 12,000 injured in the enclave since Oct. 7. The figures are believed to include casualties from the hospital explosion in Gaza City. Hamas and Israel blame each other for that blast, which prompted sporadic protests in Europe and in some Arab nations.

A leader of Hamas says that not all of the Israeli hostages who were taken to Gaza are being held by the group, a claim that will most likely complicate negotiations for their release.

Show less

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121253101#Comment_121253101

The idea that there is only a binary option between Israel's current policy which will continue to kill thousands of civilians and "letting" Hamas butcher Israelis is one of the most pervasive fallacies of this entire debate. It is rolled out in the media as this "What else are they supposed to do?" question as if people thought this was the first ever example of a military power having to contend with an insurgency and there is nothing in history to learn from.

I mean, nobody even seems to be capable of telling me how Israel's response even makes strategic sense, never mind proportionality. They have complete military superiority versus a penned in enemy with relatively limited resources to make outward incursions aside from one major surprise attack which caught the Israelis off guard. There is zero chance that a bunch of lads on scramblers and paragliders will break the fully mobilised Israeli military line in any meaningful way.

And what intelligent course of action are the Israelis taking, with the comfort of their dominance? Doing the one f**king thing Hamas absolutely wanted them to do by slaughtering Palestinian civilians by the bucket load, poisoning the nature of the conflict more and more with each passing day, destabilising the region, destroying any prospect of them being seen as a conciliatory power that genuinely wants to live peacefully side by side with the people who they are killing and whose homes and communities they are flattening.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260905#Comment_121260905

They are certainly mass murdering scum, but cowardly? No. You are confusing cowardice with brutality. It's part of the problem and one of the biggest reasons the Israeli regime have not started their ground invasion.

Hamas fighters and in particular Hezbollah fighters would probably be the 2 most effective urban fighting groups on the planet.

That said Israeli special forces would be up there too.

But the problem is he will send in the reservists, the attrition rate will be high and the optics of the returning body bags will further turn the Israeli people against Bibi and his regime and not just in Israel.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261596#Comment_121261596

The IDF headquarters is based in Tel Aviv, its surrounded by civilian buildings, do you agree that IDF headquarters is a legitimate target for Hamas rockets and any civilian deaths are acceptable because "legitimate military target"?