Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281677#Comment_121281677

Because they are probably ashamed of his actions and have a spine to stand up for what is right or wrong. The Irish government is not Muslim and they have the courage to call out what is right or wrong, the vast majority of the world probably think the same.

I said when this all started off that the US had sent a memo out not to mention ceasefire, pause or condemnation and looks like it was true. Countries leaders will die on a hill over this rather than call it out as it is. No one here does not condemn Hamas's actions but quite a few have difficulty to do so calling out Israels actions which is just as bad.

If you don't call it out you approve of it. That's what i think anyway, everyone has an opinion i suppose. It's not a religious thing more a humane thing.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281890#Comment_121281890

Whats that got to do with our discussion on the control of the border?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281815#Comment_121281815

I do think they may have rushed into sacking her without thinking out the consequences. She made several posts on LinkedIn making it quite clear she was objecting to the current actions of the Israeli state in Palestine (since October 7th) and not making some derogatory comment about Israel in general as a country. I'm not sure there were sufficient grounds for dismissal there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281902#Comment_121281902

I never mentioned who has control of the border, so you'll have to tell me.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281891#Comment_121281891

No

An Irish company just wouldn't do that. We operate by our own standards, hence the first thing I said was to seek legal advice. You cannot just sack someone in Ireland unless they're a contractor. And WIX are going to discover this very soon.

There are controls and laws in place in Ireland to dissuade that kind of carry on. We don't need a big protest outside their office, it will be handled by the courts... end of.

brickster69

First question at PM Questions in the UK

Rishi Sunak asked to back a humanitarian ceasefire and whether Israel is acting against international law

Answer 'It's important we do everything we can to get humanitarian aid to everyone who needs it'

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281941#Comment_121281941

It seems self defeating too. One imagines there is a pretty bad atmosphere inside the company now that the employees know that management openly identify with the Netanyahu regime and see themselves as cheerleaders for it.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281891#Comment_121281891

If an Israeli employee employed by an Irish company publicly labeled Ireland a country of terrorists, that employee deserves the sack.

Courtney from Clondalkin has gotten her 15 mins a fame

chopperbyrne

No, they don't deserve the sack for that.

They can be criticised for their statement, but that's it.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281730#Comment_121281730

the state of Israel is founded on the injunction to remember a history of destruction and to ensure that such events will never happen again.

they (Netanyahu that is) may well have temporarily taken their eye off the ball, but that doesn't negate their founding principles which are based on historic/long running paranoia, and their obsession with the Holocaust.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281984#Comment_121281984

She could easily argue that she is referring to the current far right Netanyahu regime, rather than 'Israel' as a country (as she made other posts outlining her objections to the regime's actions in Palestine).

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282002#Comment_121282002

So, what.....HR call her in and say, "that wasn't very nice, Courtney!"

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121276049#Comment_121276049

''He also said that Channel 4 news hadn't been allowed into Gaza. Why is that I wonder? Hamas strictly controls the narrative coming out of Gaza.''

Above is your words which questioning why Channel 4 were not allowed into Gaza... Asking the question why and stating Hamas strictly controls the narrative would suggest that Hamas has control over that entry/situation. If thats not what you meant, I'm all ears...

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121276155#Comment_121276155

What would be sufficient? UN / Human Rights Watch Amnesty International? This is for educational purposes...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281818#Comment_121281818

There is a difference between a moral argument and a legal argument. What Israel is doing is morally wrong, but it may not be legally wrong.

Those who cry "war crimes" every time Israel does something are in danger of becoming the boy who cries wolf, and when Israel does do something that is illegal, Israel will point to the persecution complex.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281856#Comment_121281856

I disagree. International laws on warfare are simply words used to put a framework around a moral and ethical point — they are imperfect as any laws are. They are also written and agreed to by States (not private citizens), and ultimately are heavily influenced by the great State powers of the world — and so the question of what is good warfare and bad warfare is written by them and is written to the advantage of the manner in which they conduct war. So, a State can bomb an enclosed space like Gaza, kill hundreds of children, and say that unlike Hamas they didn't personally and directly target those kids even if by any rational standard they were reckless to the fact of killing children.

When the shoe is on the other foot, what does the State have done with you when you didn't mean to kill someone but you acted recklessly? Indeed, what would you have done to someone who recklessly killed your child?

International law is a good thing, but ultimately you must always remember that it can be used as a permission slip for a government to be allowed to bomb your house, kill you, kill your children, kill your parents, kill your neighbours — and coolly explain it all away with a glorified "woopsie" if it didn't fit within some wording that makes it a crime.

That's why we should all hold States to a higher standard than the standards they apply to themselves.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281540#Comment_121281540

Geographically and legally, it is the same situation. North Korea has blockaded South Korea, the only difference is the degree of success, the legality of it is exactly the same.

chopperbyrne

No, HR say absolutely nothing if it was a personal statement not made while representing or advertising the company.

Just reading the article, and it says she posted comments on LinkedIn.

I don't use it myself, but as far as I know your employment history and current employer is a big part of your profile.

If she had Wix listed as her current employer while making those statements on that platform, then there is grounds for disciplinary action.

I would say that an immediate termination of contract for an employee of over four years however is going to be an easy win in an unfair dismissal case.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282028#Comment_121282028

No

There is a process.

Usually HR give a combination of 2 written warnings and a verbal warning followed by dismissal (differs from company to company).

IE you're given a chance to stop. If you don't stop, then you get dismissed.

I think this is fair, there's no surprises, people are given a chance to asses and change the situation, and there can be some degree of negotiation. (which is what we need, not the knee jerk reactions we're seeing)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282077#Comment_121282077

Doesn't apply in the case of gross misconduct. Immediate dismissal is possible in such circumstances.

Supporting terrorist violence against your company's owners could well meet the definition of gross misconduct.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282055#Comment_121282055

International humanitarian law came from the 1949 Geneva convention, which has been ratified by 196 states. That's pretty much the opposite of what you are saying that they were written and heavily influenced by the great state powers of the world.

This is as close as a universal set of rules as can be got. But yes I agree with you, it's far from perfect. Bombing Hamas and killing thousands of innocent civilians including children, is within this law. How very tragic that may be.

As I said, if you can "win" a war by turning the other cheek, you are on a higher moral ground. Like Ghandi did. But he had a billion Indians vs a few thousand Brits and they weren't surrounded by countries that all have stated they wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth either, that made that strategy a bit more viable 😂

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282066#Comment_121282066

She could really be only dismissed if found to be making offensive comments such as racist or homophobic ones. Criticising the Netanyahu regime (a political opinion basically) doesn't seem near enough grounds for dismissal.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282077#Comment_121282077

Maybe they did their due diligence and were happy to sack. Maybe there wasn’t a need to go through what you’re suggesting. It’s not always an exact science when disciplining an employee

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281960#Comment_121281960

Exactly.

Like they've done themselves no favors in the instant sacking. Moral will be crap in there now and will affect productivity. If they'd have sat down and discussed it could have all been avoided. But that moderate attitude is lost on Arabs and Israeli's... they're very extreme

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282060#Comment_121282060

South Korea is not subject to a blockade of any sort.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281953#Comment_121281953

It's obvious Israel has a right to defend itself under international law and is doing so in accordance with that.

A ceasefire saves Hamas.

Why would sunak go along with that. No matter what way it is presented for sale.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282096#Comment_121282096

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282088#Comment_121282088

You both could be correct.

I still think it's for the WRC/Courts. And given this is Ireland I would guess that WIX will lose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282037#Comment_121282037

“would suggest”

You’re trying to guess my intentions here. Never mentioned anything about the border so am not bothered about it. The Hamas run ministry of health releases casualty figures for Gaza. I’d like to see a 3rd party figure for these if possible.

“What would be sufficient? UN / Human Rights Watch Amnesty International?”

If they were available, It would be interesting to see them.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281984#Comment_121281984

Well at least you are consistent. Personally , in this hypothetical, I believe the Israeli employee should not be sacked. It's a dangerous road to go down if people can be sacked for expressing their political views.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282099#Comment_121282099

Going by the Independent it wasn't instant, she got told to stop and then kept going with more posts.

It's called bringing a company into disrepute, if your boss wakes up to an inbox full of complaints from something you've done in a very public way you're getting fired.

Danzy

They might lose but they'll probably not mind either way. They also have to think of the safety and well being of their Jewish employees and protect them.

Long Sean Silver

every time Israel is attacked, they claim it's another Holocaust. they then use that to justify the murdering of innocent Palestinian children.

the attack of Oct attack by Hamas was horrific and barbaric, but it was NOT a holocaust. such misuse of language is extremely unhelpful.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282125#Comment_121282125

If true, well then the process was followed and the dismissal is legitimate.

Kind of strange in terms of morals isn't it? Like if I fully believed in X and my employer fully believed in Y, and Y and X are incompatible and seek to destroy each other, then why would I work for someone that believes so much in Y?

I don't get it.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282121#Comment_121282121

Well, that is why people need to be careful and considerate as regards where and how they express themselves.

We can't hide behind this "political views" for every case of where someone makes claims. I can say what I like because these are my "political views." That is a nonsense

I think it was mentioned that Courtney hadn't one mention of the Hamas butchery during her political commentary in slating Israel. Not a whiff of compassion/condemnation for the October 7 massacre; she was so keen to jump on the Israel bashing bandwagon, that the October 7 massacre slipped her mind. And when I consider this, it is why I believe that she doesn't give a fiddlers about the situation, really.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282125#Comment_121282125

Exactly. She was (in their mind, and I'd agree) a threat to their company....had to be sacked.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282132#Comment_121282132

Seen a recent enough WRC ruling where a employee did something naughty in the bathroom of another business he got arrested and charged but not yet convicted and it was reported in the papers.

Employer fires him, he goes to WRC and loses. You don't have to have done anything bad or illegal just get your name out there in a negative way.

And then there's the case of a Irish rail working maiming 2 women in a drunken car accident getting sent to prison, fired while in prison and somehow wining at the WRC as they took too long to fire him.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282121#Comment_121282121

It depends where and when and how you're expressing those political opinions. For example many of my political opinions that I can freely express in most places will absolutely get me sacked if I express them in my place of work or on social media accounts that are linked with my professional life - that is where my account also links me with my employer's by having my place of work and my role visible in the profile. It may be a dangerous road but we're not starting on it now, but we're already a long way in. And she was supposed to know all this.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280216#Comment_121280216

It's only "true" to someone who's entrenched in a particular side and wants to portray a falsehood, or is too lazy to briefly google something.

This is the flag of Hamas...

This is the flag of Palestine...

And the above has been pointed out to you before.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282119#Comment_121282119

From Amnesty

UN - who actually have people on the ground within Gaza

Latest: Occupied Palestinian Territory/Israel | OHCHR

Anyone with a pair of eyes on their head, looking at social media, the news reports with the levels of destruction/pictures of injured would reasonably ascertain that +1,000 people have died within Gaza.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282170#Comment_121282170

This is just it...one could agree 100 percent with Courtney's views here, but not agree that she can openly and publicly state these views while working for an Israeli company, and expect no comeback.

It's about where and how one expresses their opinions and views, and that there can be consequences involved.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282224#Comment_121282224

Nope, that's an Islamic shaddah it's not Hamas,it's seen all across the middle east and further afield sometimes in white,some times in green and sometimes in black,

It's not the flag of hamas,for the most part the experts say Hamas has no actual flag , but then again that's Wikipedia for you

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282277#Comment_121282277

As much as you keep trying to squirm out of your lie, it'll still be a lie.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282225#Comment_121282225

You quoted Amnesty lol .

Yeah unfortunately the UN are not counting casualties dead or otherwise they are reporting according to hamas what they are saying is the casualties

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282285#Comment_121282285

Direct question - yes/no answer will suffice. Do you think +1,000 people have died in Gaza since Oct 7th.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282135#Comment_121282135

The limitation on Israeli deaths is down to the limitation of Hamas's technology (and that of their brethren) not their ideology.

Hamas want Islamic law on all middle east land and all Jews/Christians removed and will do whatever it takes to do.

If they had the means it would be a holocaust cheered on a supported by a lot of the middle east and indeed Western universities and the like( on the basis of pre Israeli strike back demonstrations in London and elsewhere).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282225#Comment_121282225

“Looking at social media”

The last place i’d be looking for accuracy. Depends on who’s posting the info at the end of the day doesn’t it.

”the news reports”

Again, where are they sourcing their info from? If it’s from Hamas only, you need to gauge for yourself how accurate are their figures.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282357#Comment_121282357

At this stage you are being deliberately obtuse. If I was sprouting numbers like 10k+ maybe just maybe I would have conceded, however social media shows directly and I am not talking about reporting, its real time visible dead bodies injured parties. I am actually shocked that I even am explaining this.

'If this was a school shooter, hiding out in a classroom when would it ever be morally acceptable to bomb the entire school.' Answer. Never.

However this is whats happening to Palestinian people. For the love of god 50% of their population is under 18. That means 50% of the population were not in existence when Hamas (with the help of Israel initially might I add) were elected. That's not included an of the people who would even have been too young to vote. And people on here essentially cheering Israel on, I am ashamed of you all who are. I don't have all the answers, or solutions to this but what I do know this is wrong and this is not the solution.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282224#Comment_121282224

Until something changes Palestinian army and government is Hamas, voted in by about half of them while the other half voted a slightly less radical version of Hamas, stemming from the same organisation and movement seeking the dissolution of Israel and all Jews from that territory. The fact that these factions were or still are at war is of no consequence, its just their power struggle.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282088#Comment_121282088

Not sure supporting terrorist violence against your companys owners could be construed as gross misconduct.

The following is not an exhaustive list and it comes with the warning that every case is different. Even when you believe that the employee may be guilty of an act of gross misconduct similar to one of the examples below, you still have to follow the correct procedures before dismissing them.

Sexual harassment

Deliberate fraud

Sleeping at work

Fighting, physical assault, abuse

Unable to carry out work tasks due to the consumption of drus or intoxicants

Possession of illicit drugs, or their supply or use

Making a false allegation of injury in the workplace

Deliberate refusal to carry out legitimate instructions

Deliberate damage to company property

Deliberately poor work performance

Breach of company confidentiality policy by sharing sensitive information with competitors.

Stealing

Inappropriate behaviour towards clients

Use of company property without obtaining prior approval

Bullying, harassment,victimisation, breach of anti-discrimination policy

Accepting or offering bribes

indecent behaviour

major breaches of health and safety rules

 

The test for gross misconduct is “Would it be reasonable to consider this action to be a serious breach of acceptable workplace behaviour.”

From employment rights^^^^^ Not sure which one of these it falls into.If she posted it from a work pc during working hours they could get her for "use of company property without prior approval"

Thats about the only one I could see carrying some weight.

Depends on the circumstances though - if she posted it on her own time, on her own pc then theyre out of luck.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282277#Comment_121282277

It's a Tawheed flag and the various colours you mention represent different types of Islam or were used during certain Calipahtes (I think)

The main colours are Black, White, Green and Red

Islamic offshoots and branches are extremely complicated and difficult to understand.

Like the Taliban use a white version of that flag

For anyone interested The Arabic reads "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger"

Allah is the same lad JC's Da and is also the same God as Yahweh