Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282091#Comment_121282091

Well I'd respectfully disagree with you there. The Geneva Conventions certainly cannot be described as universally accepted in the context of this topic as Israel has not even ratified all of them. Israel doesn't recognise the International Criminal Court either and more or less told them to f**k off in an attempted 2021 war crime investigation.

The Geneva Conventions were put in place at a time when the world was very much commanded by, and most countries were under the strong influence of, the US, United Kingdom, France and the Soviet Union. These were the main powers influencing the form that the Geneva Conventions and much of the text reflected the manner in which they wanted to have freedom to fight their own future wars. For example, almost all of them were dealing with some form of insurgency within their own territories and did not want the Convention to restrain their ability to restore colonial authority — so the internal conflict rules were a vague fudge at that time.

The rules have been built on that foundational context and while I stress again that they are on balance a good thing, I don't believe they should be taken as a constraint on what we as citizens deem to be war crimes.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282409#Comment_121282409

"voted in by about half of them"

That's actually not true.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281312#Comment_121281312

You are correct, should have typed ww1.

THE_SHEEP

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/islamophobia-in-asia

Nice to see Richie Boyd Barrett and other " Leftists" address the suffering of these Muslims ........

( Woopsie !! I forgot , they won't , Israel not involved .......... 🙄) .

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282335#Comment_121282335

 " enough warming up, you have Jews with you in every place. You should attack every Jew possible in all the world and kill them."

Fathi Hamad, political leader of Hamas.

These types of quotes are everywhere, Hamas did not change. It just changed tactics, it has always been about extermination between the river and the sea and it won't stop there, as this is not about any nation state for them.

The wave of solidarity towards them will not change them nor will it prevent them from moving on to gays, women and so forth once the Jewish issue is dealt with, be careful what ye wish for, the killing won't be confirmed to those between the river and the sea that ye want gone.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282335#Comment_121282335

Israel is over-reacting, just as Hamas knows they would. and in doing so they are losing world-wide support/sympathy. murdering kids is not a good look for a supposed democratic, liberal state.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282159#Comment_121282159

I agree it's extremely distasteful if she did not condemn Hamas for what they did,but even so I still believe if this post was on her private time and her employers name was not mentioned on her profile it was wrong to sack her. However, If due process was followed then you could argue she had a choice to make, this company is not consistent with my moral values therefore I'm resigning.

She may have believed due to Irish employment law there is no way the company would actually go ahead and sack her. This is why she will most likely win a court case if she takes one against her former employers

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282283#Comment_121282283

Not true, your source is unreliable Hamas has no dedicated flag ,

It's a simple fact so yes the Palestinian flag is the Hamas flag and the Hamas flag is the Palestinian flag

But a quick browse on google , Islamic flags

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282476#Comment_121282476

They have already fully lost support and sympathy. Even those obliged to shore up Israel are appalled at their actions.

Time for our own government to stand up and take a diplomatic stance by removing ambassadors on both sides.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282045#Comment_121282045

Well if you look at it this way:

Moral wrong = something which is considered subjectively by one or many people to be morally wrong.

Legal wrong = something which is considered subjectively by one or many people to be morally wrong and for which there is an official sanction or punishment for committing.

They aren't that different. Legal wrongs are just moral wrongs that are made punishable by a legal authority. They both come from the same subjective interpretation of right and wrong, and similarly the discussion of whether a moral wrong is a legal wrong can itself come down to a subjective legal interpretation of wording that the military powers are naturally happy to have interpreted as narrowly as possible in the context of their own violent acts.

If there are two evils in this argument — the overuse of the term 'war crime' and the underuse of it — I think I am comfortable with which is the lesser evil.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282475#Comment_121282475

This same logic applies to Likud then, Bibi’s party:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

a. The right of the Jewish peopleto the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282400#Comment_121282400

Not being obtuse at all. We are in the middle of probably the fiercest information war there has ever been with regard all the media platforms that are available out there. If an objective 3rd party source says X is the number of killed and injured, I'll go with that. Until then, I'll be treating all suggested casualty figures with a healthy dose of skepticism.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282525#Comment_121282525

I think Leo made a very good point as to why this is an unwise course of action.

keynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282476#Comment_121282476

The fact that the leader of the UN has stridently condemned the Israeli's for war crimes and also for their history of land confiscations etc shows who has won the PR war here. I don't even think Hamas would have thought that they'd have most of the world sympathizing with the Palastinian cause so quickly. The response of the Israeli's to all the criticism has been utterly arrogant and has only highlighted how intransigent and dogmatic they are.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282557#Comment_121282557

Is it healthy after 2 weeks and THOUSANDS of Israeli bombs dropped by their OWN reporting, to be so skeptical of there at least being a thousand dead when the currently accepted figure by multinationals in situ is over 5-6 thousand now?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282520#Comment_121282520

You lied and you know you lied.

You've been here since day one of the thread waving your own little flag. But when you have to resort to lies, it's time to step back and ask yourself why.

This is the flag that Hamas uses to represent itself.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282335#Comment_121282335

The difference is that it is not the Palestinians who control the lives of Israelis; it is the Israelis who hold the power. For decades, the Israeli government has implemented policies and measures that have heavily impacted the daily lives of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. These policies include the construction of settlements, restrictions on movement, and the establishment of a separation wall. In the past, there was a prevailing perception that the Jewish people were weaker and unable to defend themselves. This view stems from historical events.

Israel finds itself in a position where it must defend itself against attempts made by its enemies to undermine and destroy the state. However, it is crucial for Israel to exercise caution and restraint when dealing with weaker opponents. Going too far and abusing the power imbalance could result in Israel being perceived as no better than those who have committed wrongdoings against them.

In recent diplomatic discussions, an intriguing plan has emerged that proposes the involvement of Arab and Muslim states in Gaza to guarantee Israel's security. This proposal also aims to facilitate the demilitarization of Hamas and foster the normalization of ties between Saudi Arabia, other Arab and Muslim states, and Israel. By strategically positioning these states in Gaza, their presence would serve as a strong deterrent against potential threats and attacks. By disarming Hamas and ensuring the control of security operations in Gaza lies with the Arab and Muslim states, the region can move towards a more peaceful future. This step would not only contribute to Israel's security but also promote stability within Gaza The first step in moving away from this revenge circle is recognizing that it leads nowhere. Revenge may provide temporary satisfaction, but it ultimately perpetuates the cycle of violence, causing more harm than good. 

In contrast, the rejection of the plan by Hamas would only serve to solidify the negative perception that many already have of the organization. It would confirm the suspicions that Hamas is not interested in peace or in finding a way forward, but rather in maintaining a state of perpetual conflict.

Tony EH

........

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121275165#Comment_121275165

Basically yes it's a slander with antisemitc undertones. Israel haters assume that anyone who ever defends the state on the net must be doing it for money.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282116#Comment_121282116

I don't know. Freedom of expression is fine, but supporting violence against your employer is the specific problem the employee has in this situation.

Overheal

“On Tuesday, Israel said it had launched 400 airstrikes over the past day, killing Hamas commanders, hitting militants as they were preparing to launch rockets into Israel and striking command centers and a Hamas tunnel shaft. The previous day, Israel reported 320 strikes. Witnesses and health officials said many of the airstrikes hit residential buildings, some of them in southern Gaza where Israel had told civilians to take shelter.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israels-increased-strikes-across-gaza-kill-more-than-700-people-in-the-past-day-palestinians-say

Hundreds of bombs per night, ‘can’t be sure 1,000 civilians died yet, can’t trust these Gazans you know’

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282135#Comment_121282135

The October attack by Hamas involved the deliberate targetting of civilians and the taking of civilians hostage which makes those incidents war crimes.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282618#Comment_121282618

Which is a shaddah, used across the Islamic world for centuries. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria,Iran , Lebanon, Egypt, qutar, Malaysia and anywhere else there is large Muslim populations

So you can stop claiming I lied

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282527#Comment_121282527

War crime has a specific legal meaning attached to it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282685#Comment_121282685

Clearly, she should be supporting the violence her company is supporting.

ollkiller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282520#Comment_121282520

It's not. The Palestinian flag is the Palestinian flag. A person waving a palestinian flag at the same time can be against hamas. I've never got the obsession with flags anyway.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282699#Comment_121282699

We're done here.

You tried spoofing in post #10989 and you got caught out.

Shahada or not, the white text on a green flag has been used to represent Hamas for over 20 years.

Usage on flags

Further information: Islamic flags and Black Standard

Jihadist variation of the Black Standard as used by various Islamist organisations since the late 1990s, which consists of the Shahada in white script centered on a black background

The Shahada is found on some Islamic flags. For an example Wahhabis have used the Shahada on their flags since the 18th century.[35] In 1902, Ibn Saud, leader of the House of Saud and the future founder of Saudi Arabia, added a sword to this flag.[35] The modern Flag of Saudi Arabia was introduced in 1973.[36] The Flag of Somaliland has a horizontal strip of green, white and red with the Shahada inscribed in white on the green strip.[37]

The flag of Afghanistan under the Taliban is a white flag with the Shahada inscribed in black. The various jihadist black flags used by Islamic insurgents since the 2000s have often followed this example. The Shahada written on a green background has been used by supporters of Hamas since about 2000. The 2004 draft constitution of Afghanistan proposed a flag featuring the Shahada in white script centered on a red background. In 2006, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant designed its flag using the Shahada phrase written in white on black background. The font used is supposedly similar to the font used as seal on the original letters written on Muhammad's behalf.[38]

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282697#Comment_121282697

One war crime is not a golden ticket to more war crimes

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282710#Comment_121282710

What violence is her company supporting?

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282595#Comment_121282595

The Israeli mantra seems to be you're either with us and support everything we do, or you're against us and support terrorism... (or Nazism).

There is no middle ground and there is definitely no place for those who condemn Hamas for their barbaric attacks and also condemn Israel for its vengeful retaliation. The fact that an Israeli diplomat posted that Ireland funds the Hamas tunnels is a testament to their stance on those who question their narrative.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41253880.html

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281960#Comment_121281960

She labeled Israel terrorists. Israeli people (regardless of who is in power) will rightly be proper offended by this. She tarnished Israeli people as terrorists. Nothing to do (necessarily) with anyone cheerleading this current campaign.

She must have wanted the sack, as well as attention. Either that, or she’s incredibly silly.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282714#Comment_121282714

It's one and the same

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282717#Comment_121282717

I already debunked your claim ,

Unfortunately Wikipedia is as reliable as your mate down the pub

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282550#Comment_121282550

No. Likud don't want a war of extermination against all others globally, they have a very strong argument that a 2 state solution does endanger Israelis, it's very obvious after this month.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282577#Comment_121282577

Please elaborate - I missed Leo's words of wisdom.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282697#Comment_121282697

They were indeed war crimes but that does not remotely justify the overwhelming military response from Israel against what is essentially a defenceless civilian population. The only thing saving northern Gaza at the moment from obliteration are the hostages held there.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282702#Comment_121282702

Fair enough, but it's a definition that the Israelis do not seem to be interested in arguing about with the International Criminal Court, which they don't recognise or engage with.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282447#Comment_121282447

What is not true? It was something like 45% for Hamas and the rest went for Fatah (40 something) and other splinter groups of PLO. Being honest and accepting that Hamas has the support of the majority of Palestinians (including those living here) would be the first step in having an objective view of the situation.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282598#Comment_121282598

The Gaza Strip is 365 km². The population of the Gaza Strip is 2,048,000. That's over 5,600 people per square km. Children account for around 50% of the population of the Gaza Strip, so therefore for each km2, there are around 2,800 children.

On the 12th of October, The Israeli Air Force declared that they dropped over 6,000 bombs on Gaza - that was in less than a week (5 days). That is the equivalent of 16 bombs per square km. We're now 13 days since they declared that figure, and there have been a hell of a lot more bombs. My analytical mind says that the number of dead being quoted is a lowball figure and if the cleanup ever happens, that figure will be a lot higher, a LOT.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282786#Comment_121282786

The ICC isn’t their friend, because they engage in international crimes:

https://www.youtube.com/live/R4jRX3bwxNQ?si=tQx8mVKlHbB2TU63

Gaza children having to draw their names on their arms so their bodies can be identified in the rubble. 1 year old baby girls who have lost their parents and scream during the next air raids

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282799#Comment_121282799

And, instead of going into coalition with Fatah, they *murdered them*.

Support us, if you don't, we will kill you.

A brief history of how, again, bad middle east policy by GWB gave rise to Hamas:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html

The election was 44% Hamas, 41% Fatah, and others.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282441#Comment_121282441

Agree with most of that, but at the end "I don't believe they should be taken as a constraint on what we as citizens deem to be war crimes"

I'm afraid that until the overwhelming majority of nations agree on a new set of better rules, we will have to do with the set of rules we got. Individual citizens or groups of citizens can't make up their own rules. And we can't have different rules for different actors / nations. Surely you agree with that?

Also the eyes of the world are on Israel. Should they commit war crimes, this will be known. It will have an enormous impact on the support they get. But I think we can also agree that from the evidence available, it looks like Israel is playing by the book so far.

yourdeadwright

I find it bizarre neutral people on here picking sides, Hundreds of innocent children have died on both sides, for what ???

They both need to cope the f*ck on & have a cease fire,

It's 2023 people who go out & live there lives based on religious books written thousands of years ago need to checked into mental help facilities ,

While we are on it War is a load of nonsense, a bunch of aul lads in suits have disagreements & thousands of innocent people lose there lives over absolute drivel,

There are no winners in this or good sides just a bunch off arseh*les causing innocent people to die .

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282779#Comment_121282779

Again with the lies again like the hospital bombing that didn't happen and I've been saying This for weeks and now your upset

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282004#Comment_121282004

"Founded on the injunction.." What?

Israel was founded on the principle of Zionism. There was strong movement in support of a Jewish state in Israel prior to WWII, for example.

But, "never again" is a compelling slogan for sure.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282876#Comment_121282876

Your replies are getting out of control. I've never mentioned anything about the bombing of the hospital.

Take a break from the thread. You doing nothing for either your position or yourself with this continuous nonsense.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282830#Comment_121282830

Right, again the west is somehow responsible for all the evils all the other people do all over the world. And yes, they killed each other for power, big surprise.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282842#Comment_121282842

Absolutely agree. The old lads picking the fights should fight each other. The only pathway to peace is to make peace something worthwhile - something they cannot afford to lose.

Look at NI, there are still those looking to stir the pot but they're the outliers. This was achieved by giving both parties peace and prosperity and in essence something to lose if they decided to roll backwards. It takes time for the hostilities to peter out and die, both literally and figuratively but for many who grew up during the troubles and who faced unemployment and poverty, the idea of going back to that is not comprehensible. Unfortunately, I cannot see this happening in the ME due to extreme views and religion.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282785#Comment_121282785

International law may differ from you in that respect. In the current conflict we have an engagement between a non-State actor - Hamas - and a State - Israel. Different obligations, different principles and different laws apply as to what it and isn't a war crime.

A State has a right under international law to self-defence, a non-State actor does not. A State has a right to use violence in certain circumstances, a non-State actor does not. The failure to understand these differences in international law is behind much of the legal misinterpretation of what has happened in Gaza.

A State can bomb a civilian population under international law, a non-State actor cannot. A state commits a war crime when:

1. "Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

We are into a judgement call as to whether the bombings in Gaza are clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated. The behaviour of Hamas in taking hostages, beheading children, bombing their own hospital etc. has probably benefitted Israel under international law as it has decreased the threshold for anticipated military advantage. The right to defend Israel and get the hostages back, which Hamas continue to refuse to release, justify the military action under law. If Hamas were to release the hostages, Israel would find it much harder to justify the actions currently being taken.

As always, the above is an opinion on the legal merits of the Israeli actions and should not be taken as morally condoning what Israel are doing.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282842#Comment_121282842

Easiest way for this to end is for Hamas to release the hostages and apologise for the butchering of children on October 7th and offer those responsible up to an international court for their crimes. Israel would have no justification for continuation.