Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284292#Comment_121284292

You may not be aware but Manic Moran has a very high degree of military domain expertise. His views tend to be backed up by deep subject matter knowledge. He's one of the best posters on here.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284310#Comment_121284310

I'm fully aware, I've been around here before.

Their military experience doesn't make their prosaic argument the correct argument. I don't know how much deep subject matter exclusivity there is on the right and wrong of bombing buildings with babies in it. We wouldn't tolerate that savagery on our own populations.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284267#Comment_121284267

The US state department didn't invent that. Those definitions of modern day anti semitism came from the IHRA, and many countries and bodies signed on to this definition, including the UK, France, Spain, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland as well the EU itself.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/international-holocaust-remembrance-alliance-definition-of-anti-semitism

Even if you don't think it's anti semitic, surely most normal people would think twice about comparing Jews to Nazis? Crass to say the least

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284320#Comment_121284320

Oh it's absolutely crass,

just as it is crass to water down the level of debate to cries of antisemitism.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284306#Comment_121284306

Your attempts at attempting to retain the moral high ground appear to be causing you to post opinions that simply aren’t considering the real world realities in all honesty. WW2 was such a terrible conflict that the least worst option, not the best one, was the one often taken. The decision to use the bomb was such a decision IMO.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284328#Comment_121284328

I think you'll find the better posters don't resort to such tactics.

Raoul Duke III

I think the most interesting question of all is 'what happens when the shooting stops?'

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283884#Comment_121283884

I find it harder to believe that Israel , given the reputation of Israeli intelligence services, couldn't get whiff of a major assault that was planned over a two year period by the Al Qassam Brigades. I don't think Iran would have been actively involved in the planning of the Hamas operation as they would know the consequence of doing so would be missiles dropping in Tehran. No amount of American pressure would stop Israel from attacking Iran in that scenario. The Iranians probably knew something big was being planned though. An Israeli friend of mine thinks Bibi allowed it to happen. I don't buy that for the simple reason a guy as politically astute as he is would surely know presiding over the worst massacre of Israelis since the foundation of their state would be the end of his political career. Also if he knew, others knew too, someone would speak out. So the explanation is that it was a monumental intelligence failure on the part of Mossad and Sin Beth.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284347#Comment_121284347

Reload, that's what happens.

Strazdas

Israeli ambassador is on The Tonight Show on VM1 giving a long interview.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284391#Comment_121284391

Shin Bet! Sin Beth sounds like a speciality nightclub.😉

Your friend's theory is bonkers, quite frankly.

ollkiller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284213#Comment_121284213

There was a multitude of ways they could have finished the war instead of dropping two nuclear bombs. And I do get your point about being right to do it. I thought that for years, ya it finished the war. I'm too tired to do a long post about where Japan was at that stage and all the rest. Safe to say as Overheal has said they could have easily made Japan a pariah state. Anything that kills hundreds of thousands of people in one go is evil. Theres no other word for it.

On the conflict. Figures are over 6k dead in Gaza. Say they're inflated and its 3 or 4k. What is the number that's enough to atone for the despicable horror they suffered 2 weeks ago. Seems to me it's going to be a pretty large number. We've far gone past the justifiable stage now. Like Israel can go after Hamas for years. And will. This is the will of tyrants.

The other leaders of the world, if they had any backbone would force a ceasefire and actual peace talks. This is history repeating over and over again. I'm 44. Every 5 to 6 years it kicks off. But its kicking off way more intensely than before.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284421#Comment_121284421

Israel are Americas puppet state so as long as America condone what's happening it will continue.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284415#Comment_121284415

Haha. It does! It's certainly strange considering he supported Likud and Bibi for years.

Tell me how

The Times in Israel said today that 'the IDF is concerned that if Hamas release more hostages, that the political decision will be taken to delay a ground incursion.'

That's right, the army does not want hostages released, it wants the opportunity to inflict suffering on Palestinians as soon as possible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284421#Comment_121284421

There’s multiple counterfactuals you could argue over Japan. Not the thread to do it in I think. As regards the ME, I can remember stuff going back to the 1970s. Are we into yet another wash rinse repeat scenario? Only time will tell.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284447#Comment_121284447

The only reason they have not launched a ground invasion so far is due to American pressure to hold off. They do actually listen to what the Americans tell them. With this in mind a poster asked what happens after the shooting stops- in an ideal world Hamas would be finished, and more moderate Governments in both Gaza and Israel would emerge. America would then exert real pressure on both sides to begin meaningful peace talks.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284470#Comment_121284470

If Israel had it's way Gaza would be turned to dust.

c.p.w.g.w

Has anyone in Isreal not realized that the current bombing of civilians, is just going to drive more young Palestinians to take up arms and fight with Hamas...The Israeli mouthpiece was on the Tonight show, sprouting absolute waffle ...we should expell her and all Israeli diplomats and maybe next all Israeli citizens...

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284202#Comment_121284202

Em...I have a library of over 3000 films from all around the world, and from all eras and I read constantly about movies of all calibre. With respect, there's little that you're going to tell me about that particular art form, or the changes that have occurred within it over time (including special effects). I've been watching film since the 70's.

As far as 'Hacksaw Ridge" is concerned, it was mostly trash, especially in the earlier part of the movie...and while the story of Desmond Doss is one that's worth reading, Mel Gibson's movie didn't do it justice in many respects. 'Saving Private Ryan' is the superior film, by a wide margin, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether America should or shouldn't have used the atomic bomb on Japan.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284213#Comment_121284213

At best, the war was going to last a couple of months after August 1945. Japan was finished and looking for a way out and all of the Suzuki cabinet were in favour of surrender, with only the Army Minister and the Army and Navy Chiefs of Staff holding out for assurances that the Allies wouldn't "molest" the Emperor. In fact Hirohito himself had instructed the cabinet to bring the war to an end as soon as possible. This was known to the Americans through Purple and had they so wished they could have let the Japanese know that they, in fact, had no intention of harming Hirohito. However, that would have meant a peaceful conclusion to the war in the Pacific and would have left America without a wartime test of their new weapon. Something which wasn't within their interests at the time, especially with the new era about to be unleashed upon the world.

The weapon had to be tested and tested on a virgin target. This is why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen.

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284470#Comment_121284470

You're telling lies to justify your hatred.

The decision to delay has already been made and its so US warships can prepare defences should things go pear shaped.

https://www.reuters.com/world/israel-agrees-us-request-delay-gaza-invasion-wsj-2023-10-25/

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284510#Comment_121284510

Expel all Israeli citizens!? Nonsense

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284620#Comment_121284620

I said maybe...the Isreal nation is a nation committing a genocide and any criticism of them is met with calls of anti-Semitism

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284620#Comment_121284620

This thread never fails to deliver.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284549#Comment_121284549

Historians themselves continue to disagree on whether the bomb should have been used or not and what part it played in the Japanese surrender. Interesting article summing up the various schools of thought.

https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/history/debate-over-japanese-surrender/

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284134#Comment_121284134

Because they all want Jews and Israel ended permanently

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284549#Comment_121284549

BS there was no movement to surrender until after the atomic bombs and even after the first one the Japanese high command considered that the US had only one. Here is the assessment of what would happen in the case of an invasion

https://www.history.navy.mil/about-us/leadership/director/directors-corner/h-grams/h-gram-057/h-057-1.html#:~:text=By%20late%20July%2C%20the%20JCS,to%2010%20million%20Japanese%20dead.

the Japanese had predicted the beachheads and when the invasion would take place. Predicted deaths on the Allied side would be 500k+( probably worse as the Japanese kamakazi intended to target troop carriers not destroyers or aircraft carriers) as the Japanese also planned mass suicide of civilians deaths on the Japanese side could run to 10 million+. And that was just for Kyushu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall?wprov=sfla1

There is nothing to indicate that Japan would surrender before even the second bomb. It was only then that Emperor Hirohito did not give the instructions to surrender until after that. As well there was a couple of coup attempts even between the bomb and the surrender so it's unlikely surrender would be uncontested without the bomb.

Basically go away and read you history. There is a lot of revisionist BS trying to paint the US as the great Satan on this one

The real truth if there was no bomb the Russians would have also invaded from the North and the results deaths would run into the tens of millions.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284655#Comment_121284655

What has Japan got to do with this thread or this conflict?

BorneTobyWilde

I just don't understand why the US is so invested in Israel, considering the US is mostly Christian, especially those in power, and Israel doesn't even believe in Jesus, and killed the person claiming to be him. What is this unbreakable tie? What Israel is doing is more horrific than all the school shootings of the last 40 year put together.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284708#Comment_121284708

The Jewish / Israel lobby are very powerful in US politics and the corporate world and actively campaign to promote the interests of Israel.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284292#Comment_121284292

If there happens to be a baby in the building, that is not the concern of the Israeli military. Their legal obligation is to take reasonable measures to protect civilian life and infrastructure, and obtain a proportional military advantage in comparison to the harm done to the civilian population. That does not mean that they must protect civilian life at all costs.

Unthe laws of war change, and it is very unlikely that they will in that respect, those are the rules under which a military is supposed to operate. The correct solution is to realize that war is best avoided and avoid such destruction in the first place, and if you can’t, then don’t place munitions dumps in areas where civilians are likely to be found.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284700#Comment_121284700

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

See the section on 'Opposition'

Long Sean Silver

shocking war crimes being committed by the IDF

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284721#Comment_121284721

What proportional military advantage has been gained from the killing of the Al Jazeera journalist's family?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284655#Comment_121284655

The fact of the matter is that Japan was defeated before the first bomb fell. In that respect I'd be in line with historians such as Basil Liddell Hart in his assessment of how correct America was to use the atomic bomb.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284700#Comment_121284700

LOL.

Yeah, just "BS". 🤣

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284719#Comment_121284719

Milking their persecution more like it, and now it seems they have a free ride in the world to kill at will, they're out of control. Biden before 0ct 7th was knocking the Israeli PM, running him down for his poking of the situation, Biden telling the world ' no invite to the White House for him'' , now acting like they're besties .

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284708#Comment_121284708

They want a hard man in the Middle East.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284549#Comment_121284549

Magic was the diplomatic code, I seem to recall that Purple was naval.

That said, your position is at least debatable. See, for example, this two-parter. https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2022/05/02/did-the-japanese-offer-to-surrender-before-hiroshima-part-1/

It also is a frequent topic over on the ask historians subreddit, eg https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3zuffw/some_historians_say_that_the_argument_that_the/ or https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/15gsdme/i_understand_that_the_atomic_bomb_was_viewed_as/

Cake Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284708#Comment_121284708

Location, location, location. Having a strong ally in the middle east is a hugely valuable asset if anything kicks off in the region as it offers the flow of info/intelligence and forward operating bases. I know in recent years/decades the US has formed alliances with the likes of Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Bahrain (the US 5th fleet being based in the latter) but I don't think this was always the case, hence the need to maintain close relations with the Israelis to ensure a US always had a foothold/presence in the area.

Also when you say "considering the US is mostly Christian, especially those in power" - don't know about that! Plenty of Jews/people with jewish backgrounds in prominent positions, along with about 3-4m jews that carry a disproportionate amount of clout and influence.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284726#Comment_121284726

Opposition are all making suppositions. Truman had to make the decision with the information before him. Did you read this bit

''Maddox also wrote, "Even after both bombs had fallen and Russia entered the war, Japanese militants insisted on such lenient peace terms that moderates knew there was no sense even transmitting them to the United States. Hirohito had to intervene personally on two occasions during the next few days to induce hardliners to abandon their conditions." "That they would have conceded defeat months earlier, before such calamities struck, is far-fetched to say the least."

Even after the triple shock of the Soviet intervention and two atomic bombs, the Japanese cabinet was still deadlocked, incapable of deciding upon a course of action due to the power of the Army and Navy factions in cabinet who were unwilling to even consider surrender. Following the personal intervention of the emperor to break the deadlock in favour of surrender, there were no fewer than three separate coup attempts by senior Japanese officers to try to prevent the surrender and take the Emperor into 'protective custody'. Once these coup attempts had failed, senior leaders of the air force and Navy ordered bombing and kamikaze raids on the U.S. fleet (in which some Japanese generals personally participated) to try to derail any possibility of peace. It is clear from these accounts that while many in the civilian government knew the war could not be won, the power of the military in the Japanese government kept surrender from even being considered as a real option prior to the two atomic bombs.''

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284736#Comment_121284736

I have no idea, the Israeli planners seem to have forgotten to cc me on their targeting notes. What do you know about Nuseirat that I don’t?

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284751#Comment_121284751

Never been a Jewish president, and not likely, it would be a disaster. It would be no shock if someone in the middle east came to the aid of those getting slaughtered. Israel needs to be stopped

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284743#Comment_121284743

Defeated does not mean they would stop fighting even when it was pointless and suicidal.

Not dissimilar to the wars with Israel. They all keep attacking each other even when it's counter productive to do.

It's applying logic where none exists.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284757#Comment_121284757

It seems odd that people are able to say for certain on here that war crimes haven't been committed by Israel but they aren't able to point out the proportional military advantage gained.

How does it work in practice? Would the IDF have to document their objective and how attacking, a refugee camp in this instance, gave them a proportional military advantage?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284743#Comment_121284743

Hitler was defeated for 8-10 months before the war ended. Many in the general staff of the army and many in the upper echelon's of Hitler's government knew the war was lost. It did not stop them from causing hundreds of thousands of deaths

Japan knew it was defeated for a year plus before they did not consider surrender. So they were not just going to surrender even though the military members of cabinet were against and they had the veto.

As I said BS and revisionism that Truman and senior US government and military had Indications that the Japanese would surrender

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284708#Comment_121284708

It's not that US has influence in Israel. It's that Israel has influence in the US. Israel drives hard bargains with the US. It's not an easy alliance.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284750#Comment_121284750

All radio traffic in and out of the home islands was being closely monitored. There was little, if anything, that was getting through unread. Hirohito and Konoe had been in discussions about ending the war since February 1945 and it was Hirohito who had later the idea to dispatch Konoe to Russia in an effort to get the Russians to act as a possible mediator between Japan and the US with regards to surrender. Japan had reached out to Russia in July with the message that the Emperor was "desirous" of peace. Stalin, however, had other things on his mind. He was heading to Potsdam and there he would relay to Churchill the message that Hirohito was looking for a way out. Churchill believed that it would be prudent if the Allied terms were altered slightly.

The Japanese were finished and there was a lot of discussion about how to end the war, while saving some face, since the fire bombing of Tokyo in March. By the time July came around, the entirety of the Suzuki cabinet (apart from the Army and Navy Ministers) were looking to do such a thing, especially since Hirohito had made his wishes known.

If you're interested, Michael Smith wrote a very good book on the subject called 'The Emperor's Codes'. Well worth a read.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284767#Comment_121284767

There's nothing "revisionist" about what I'm saying at all. This information comes from established historians and just because it gets your knickers in a bit of a twist doesn't make it any less fact, and the fact of the matter is that Japan was looking for a way out long before the first bomb fell. Throughout 1945 there was much discussion amongst themselves on how best to approach ending the war, especially in a way that allowed them some modicum of honour. By the summer that became solidified when Hirohito instructed the Suzuki cabinet to come up with a way to end the war as soon as they could. Japan believed that they could make approaches to Joseph Stalin, but Stalin was more interested in pursuing his own offensive against Japan.

From Basil Liddell Hart's 'History of the Second World War'...

It was the Emperor himself who moved to cut the knot. On June 20 he summoned to a conference the six members of the inner Cabinet, the Supreme War Direction Council, and there told them "You will consider the question of ending the war as soon as possible." All six members of the council were in agreement on the score, but while the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and the Navy Minister were prepared to make unconditional surrender, the other three - the Army Minister and the Army and Navy Chiefs of Staff - argued for continued resistance until some mitigating conditions were obtained. Eventually it was decided that Prince Konoye should be sent on a mission to Moscow to negotiate for peace - and the Emperor privately gave him instructions to secure peace at any price. As a preliminary, the Japanese Foreign Office officially notified Moscow on July 13 that 'the Emperor is desirous of peace'.

The message reached Stalin just as he was setting off for the Potsdam Conference. He sent a chilly reply that the proposal was not definite enough for him to take action, or agree to receiving the mission. This time, however, he told Churchill of the approach, and it was of this that Churchill told Truman, adding his own tentative suggestion that it might be wise to modify the rigid demand for 'unconditional surrender'.

A fortnight later the Japanese Government sent a further message to Stalin, trying to make still clearer the purpose of the mission, but received a similar negative reply. Meantime Churchill's Government had been defeated at the General Election in Britain, so that Attlee and Bevin had replaced Churchill and Eden at Potsdam when, on July 28, Stalin told the Conference of the further approach.

The Americans, however, were already aware of Japan's desire to end the war, for their intelligence services had intercepted the cipher messages from the Japanese Foreign Minister to the Japanese Ambassador in Moscow.