Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285621#Comment_121285621

it's a bit like slagging off Thatcher as a war-mongering biatch and being called a misogynist. 😂

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285687#Comment_121285687

Can you point to some of such posts please. I'm not on here continuously, but have spent a number of hours at a time on the thread across various days and I can honestly say I haven't frequent examples of anti-Semitism. I'm sure there is some, but rampant implies it is very prevalent and what I've seen is a long way from that and more a case of one of posts from young accounts.

In the same way that Palestine does not equal Hamas, disapproval of Israel's action does not equal anti-Semitism.

brickster69

Big discussion going on lads, you could have some bloke with a whistle like in a football match.

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1717489108648341653

Ash.J.Williams

It's hamas that did this to Palestine not Israel

Long Sean Silver

Well done Spain!

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/spains-prime-minister-calls-for-humanitarian-cease-fire-in-talks-with-israeli-counterpart/3029758#

to paraphrase Fr. Ted, "i hear you are an anti-semite now! how did you get into that sort of thing Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez?" 😮

Overheal

"Of the two dozen journalists who have died, 20 were Palestinian, three were Israeli and one was Lebanese. At least eight other journalists have been reported injured, while three others are believed missing or detained, according to the CPJ."

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208019720/journalist-deaths-gaza-israel-hamas

:(

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285741#Comment_121285741

Some people are angrier at Israel for responding to the attack than they are about Hamas committing the attack to begin with.

It's a bizarre set of circumstances.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285834#Comment_121285834

Not even Israel is claiming this.

That's how wide of the mark you are.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285741#Comment_121285741

Just to add

3. Russia-Ukraine war has very little to do with religion

4. Russia did ground invasion without a care to civilian lives

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282898#Comment_121282898

"If Hamas were to release the hostages, Israel would find it much harder to justify the actions currently being taken."

The problem with this is that Israel is not a normal state - it is filled with suspicion of and hatred towards their neighbours. I believe they would have absolutely no compunction in levelling a substantial part of the Gaza strip if and when they get the chance. They'd call it self defence and de militarising/ de nazifying whilst obliterating countless innocent & guilty people.

Thankfully the US seem to have some leverage and can pull on the collar.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284765#Comment_121284765

I don't speak for everyone else, but there is a difference between saying 'no war crimes have been committed' and denying that 'X is conclusive evidence of a war crime being committed.' If something may or may not be lawful, the general standard we tend operate under in the West is 'innocent until proven guilty', and we as Internet observers are absolutely not in a position to make that determination since we lack all relevant information in these instances.

As for how it would work in practice, the good news is that in a modern context there probably are records kept which may be perused at some time in the long term and the advantage or lack thereof could thus be determined. It's highly unlikely, however, that such records will be made publicly available in the near future. In ye olden dayes, it would have to be proven by the prosecution. However, there haven't been any particular war crimes trials which have required such a thing since the laws of war were changed after WWII, when dropping bombs on civilians was just part of doing war, so the question right now seems to not have a demonstrated answer.

Raoul Duke III

Tom Friedman making some great points in the NYT today. To paraphrase (my notes in brackets):

• Netanyahu is a bad actor - what Israel needs is a PM that would declare an end to West Bank settlement expansion and to overhaul relations with the PA, such that it can credibly govern a post-Hamas Gaza. (to me, these seem very far from being realised)
• Israel can only build proper legitimacy with its allies if it stops annexing West Bank land (unarguable)
• Israel is fighting a fully-fledged war in Gaza against Hamas - Hamas still has residual capacity to launch rockets daily and even to launch a seaborne attack on Israel on Thursday. He notes that its terrifying to see the resources Hamas has devoted to building its military capability versus Gaza's evident human poverty. (this is something that doesn't get enough attention)
• Netanyahu's coalition actually helps Hamas - by behaving in ways that actually help unify the various anti-Israeli fronts. This includes the restrictions they placed on Temple Mount, putting harsher conditions on Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and planning an acceleration of settlement building (can't argue with that, Netanyahu is pandering to the right wingers in his cabinet - the quid pro quo is him staying out of jail)
• The normalisation of relations with Arab countries was proceeding further - the Saudi deal would have been the crowing achievement of that
• Iran is key and is the ultimate bad actor in the region. It controls 4 failed states through its proxies; Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.

key quote:

To reduce this incredibly complex struggle of two peoples for the same land to a colonial war is to commit intellectual fraud. Or as the Israeli writer Yossi Klein Halevi put it in The Times of Israel on Wednesday: “To blame the occupation and its consequences wholly on Israel is to dismiss the history of Israeli peace offers and Palestinian rejection. To label Israel as one more colonialist creation is to distort the unique story of the homecoming of an uprooted people, a majority of whom were refugees from destroyed Jewish communities in the Middle East.”

But here’s what’s also intellectually corrupt: buying into the Israeli right-wing settler narrative, now being spread far and wide inside Israel, that Hamas violence is so savage it clearly has nothing to do with anything settlers have done — so more settlements are just fine.

(I agree - beware the simplifiers)

My view: This is a territorial dispute between two people claiming the same land which needs to be divided as equitably as possible. Such a compromise is the cornerstone for any success against Hamas. So, if you are for a two-state solution, you are my friend and if you are against a two-state solution, you are not my friend.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285906#Comment_121285906

Nebulous complaint. Some people are angry that Israel is open to criticism

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286063#Comment_121286063

Agreed

https://youtu.be/RBTXMt6A9yI?si=FMWtGlTxBB-k9A5T

Raoul Duke III

So here's a question: the land that Israel has annexed\stolen\grabbed (insert your own verb of choice) in the West Bank. They are mostly populated by religious Haredim settlers.

Besides the obvious political blowback internally in Israel if they were to be handed to the PA as the price of peace, what value do they add to the State of Israel? e.g. are there any huge economic benefits that giving them up would be folly?

Overheal

And now: a new weird

https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/25/roblox-palestine-protest/

Long Sean Silver

posters here, some through ignorance, some intentionally, are confusing criticism of Israel (as represented by their Govt.) and the IDF war crimes, as being antisemitic.

the 2 are not the same. i have tried to explain/educate these posters without much luck. indeed may Jewish/Israeli citizens are openly critical of their Govt's actions. are they antisemitic too?

indeed the extent to which these posters bandy around the term, antisemitic has lost much of it's potency, and is now little more than a cliche to score points and/or to stifle debate.

For decades, the Israeli government has used the accusation of anti-Semitism as a way to shield itself from any criticism. Anyone who dares to call into question the continued military occupation of millions of Palestinians, the jailing without trial of political dissidents, the destruction of civilian homes, or any of the many other crimes that the Israeli government commits on a regular basis, is quickly labeled an anti-Semite.

https://peoplesworld.org/article/under-israeli-government-standards-any-criticism-of-its-policies-is-anti-semitism/

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285341#Comment_121285341

Threadbanned

Igotadose

...

missed the threadban

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281655#Comment_121281655

This post deserves a quote.

It was followed by 15 pages of morally bankrupt false equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, between Hamas and the US in Hiroshima & Nagasaki, or between Hamas and the Allies in Dresden. 

There is, of course, no such equivalence.

One side exalts and triumphs in cruelty, murder, torture, rape and barbarity.

The other does not. 

BorneTobyWilde

The UK didn't bomb the hell out of I.R.A strongholds or safehouses , killing all those within the blast zone, they did their due-diligence , and tracked down those responsible of crimes, the Israeli army come across as the laziest in history, clueless bunch, whac a mole approach. Their soldiers act like spoilt brats, they know that can riddle a kid with bullets for throwing a stone, and they won't face any punishment.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121278614#Comment_121278614

i would imagine all gay people in israel are concerned that their rights are being systematically targeted by the right-wing and theocratical elements of their government, notwithstanding israel's historical support of LGBT rights. there's been a year-on-year rise in reported incidents of homophobia since lockdown.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286185#Comment_121286185

The IRA weren't openly firing mass numbers of rockets from heavily populated areas though where they?

The British Army were patrolling those streets daily. The British authorities controlled the ports, controlled the borders.

It's not remotely the same situation, so your attacks on the Israeli army just rebound on you and are self discrediting.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286146#Comment_121286146

Torture is legal in Israel........

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285982#Comment_121285982

Would you blame them considering the constant barrage of threats to their very existence.

Even a bloody head cleric from Palestine went to Hitler during ww2 requesting assistance in wiping out jewish population of the area. This was even before Israel was established.

Palestinians have gotten every opportunity to create a life of peace for themselves in a Palestinian homeland and they have f##ked it up for themselves over and over again.

And we have the drivel of society here in europe with their stupid woke rubbish.

How much is a country and a people expected to take before deciding to take out this cancerous threat once and for all.

I am far from an advocate of violence on any race of people but if Israel stop now. I guarantee that this whole sorry cycle of tit for tat violence is never going to end.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285834#Comment_121285834

..

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285982#Comment_121285982

The Israelis want ( and in my opinion deserve ) a homeland, given what happened to them throughout history and most specifically ww2.

If Hamas laid down their weapons, and released their hostages, there would still be a Gaza, and full Palestinian population. Same as when Israel withdrew from Gaza the last time.

If Israel laid down their weapons, no Israelis would be left alive. We saw a taste of that on Oct 7.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285982#Comment_121285982

Hamas are holding hostages, giving Israel every excuse to do what they are doing. Releasing the hostages changes the dynamic and the situation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285855#Comment_121285855

It is pretty blatant, the denial from other posters is what is more worrying.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286397#Comment_121286397

And that's all it will take is to release every hostage and give back the dead they dragged into Gaza, but what were hearing in this thread is Condem Israel and an humanitarian pause,first .

Hostages first then discussions that or the bombs and tanks will keep coming

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286185#Comment_121286185

Probably because the IRA and the Irish were never a threat to UK existence and they never committed the same kind of barbaric mass murders, rape and desecration.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286433#Comment_121286433

I can't believe that anyone is reducing the effect of releasing the hostages. It is the first thing required to get peace. Nobody can expect Israel to stop while its citizens are being held hostage by a terrorist organisation.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286397#Comment_121286397

It would change the dynamic alright. Of course the situation for the hostages and their families is dire but who could believe a word from this Israeli government or their "defence" forces?? We've all heard the violent rhetoric.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286435#Comment_121286435

Yes, it's a false equivalence.

We should treat the situation in Israel\Palestine for what it is, within its own unique context, and not try to throw up numerous poor historical comparisons.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286459#Comment_121286459

The situation for the hostages and their families is dire BUT?????? What BUT?

Release the hostages. How can people have got so far from their senses that they just play down the Hamas actions of October 7th. Release the hostages.

Are you saying it is a good thing that the hostages are being kept by the Palestinians as some sort of attempt to keep Israel in check? If not, what is the reason for the BUT????

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286455#Comment_121286455

If all the hostages were released(just a hypothetical) why would Israel still not seek the destruction of Hamas?

Hamas would do it again,next time inflicting worse harm.

It is true that by holding the hostages Hamas gives obvious permission for Israel to attack them and so ,cynically it might be to their advantage to release them .

Even if Israel does go into Gaza how likely are they to be successful in destroying Hamas?

Some will escape and may join up with other groups in Lebanon or elsewhere.

Hopefully if they do they will be followed and destroyed by the host countries.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286518#Comment_121286518

You can't seriously be that naive Blanch?? All that separates the Gaza Strip and Armageddon at the moment are those hostages. The place is utterly defenceless against aerial bombardment. It's not pretty but see straight up that the current Israeli administration is intent on biblical levels of retribution. No one can stand over that and they must be called out on it and stopped.

Overheal

I hazard a guess if the IDF have a number on it they'd like to destroy, at least, 1400 Palestinian residential buildings.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html

Nowhere near a carpet bombing but the scale is still enormous.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286549#Comment_121286549

Having hostages hasn't stopped the bombs coming ,400 + bombs in less than 24 hours according to reports,and the first raids into Gaza started last night,if hostages aren't realased the tank will still come there is currently no advantage holding them

spakman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286218#Comment_121286218

So they shouldn't stop until what point? All Palestinians have been killed?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286549#Comment_121286549

There is no justification for the taking of civilian hostages. Among all the talk of war crimes, that is one of the most serious under the Conventions.

Without the hostages, without the raping of women and the beheading of children by Hamas, we wouldn't have a conflict.

What must be stopped are the Hamas terrorists. Release the hostages and deliver those who planned and carried out 7/10 to the International Criminal Court. That is the only route to peace, anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or is caught up in a vendetta against Israel and/or the Jews.

unkel

Said it before, the hostages make no difference. If they were all released today, it will be a boost of worldwide support for Hamas "look at how humane they are really" but Israel would still have every right to attack Hamas. I doubt Israel is any more gentle in bombardments because of the hostages. Perhaps freeing hostages would become a side plan during a ground invasion, that's about it

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286596#Comment_121286596

They should stop when the hostages have been released. The taking of hostages is both a war crime and an attack on Israel. Under international law they have a right to self-defence which means getting the hostages back.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286596#Comment_121286596

I'd say they will stop when all of Hamas has been killed or captured or (perhaps by a third state) guaranteed to not ever attack Israel again. I can't see Israel having any other plan than something like that.

brickster69

Not happy this lad on TV

https://twitter.com/Anna_AnninaEl/status/1717460569601475007

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285906#Comment_121285906

No, some people are angry at the disproportionately agrreaive response, after several decades of illegal land grabbing and settlement of people who have absolutely **** all claim to any land in the area.

Bit they shout anti semitism and shout it loudly and counter it whataboutery.

You can condemn the hamas attacks and their practices as I think most level headed people do, but also hold the opinion that what Israel is engaging in is so wholly out of step it's criminal.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284511#Comment_121284511

I was not debating the artistic or other merit of the films I mentioned ( and as such, as a connoisseur with a library of over 3000 titles, I bow to your artistic judgement) but as to how realistic the slaughter scenes were ( as that was what they were ) Gruesome fails to describe it. But I can tell you, the real thing is worse, much worse. The sight, the smell, the sounds.. And for sure, if any of these Marines etc. were given a choice Bomb Japan with nuclear weapons and end the war sooner, or steady as she goes with conventional warfare, to a man my guess would be the majority would be in favor of using the bomb and ending the war. And the only problem with it would be why was it not done sooner?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286735#Comment_121286735

Yeah, yeah, let's get Israel to stop so Hamas can attack another music festival next week and kill a few babies while they are at it and keep the hostages like zoo animals for a few years.

Seriously, what Hamas did was so far beyond civilised behaviour that it is extremely difficult to conceive of a disproportionate response.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286538#Comment_121286538

I’m inclined to agree with this first paragraph. Whether the hostages are released or not, Israelis are out for blood, as it were. The only advantage to Hamas for releasing them is that it looks better for them on the international stage, at least for the few people who don’t automatically disapprove of them.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286596#Comment_121286596

I don't have the answers.

I just feel its like if you are in a fist fight how far do you go , maybe until your opponent is down and very unlikely to get up and continue the fight.

If the woke generation get their way I think there can be but one outcome.

A ceasefire is imposed , hamas regroup with the help of their evil pals. And we are back to square one, maybe worse next time.

Just remember Israel have nuclear capability and I am 100% convinced they will use every asset at their disposal to prevent a holocaust part 2.