Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

AllForIt

I wonder if any Palistaians have done anything to assist the Isralies in identifying the location of the hostages.

I don't know how Hamas managed to cart 200 people over to Gaza, it would have taken a fleet of vehichles, they hardly walked them over and undoubthly someone must have seen all this play out.

Peaceful Palistians would hardly think it's a bad idea to snitch on Hamas as what they are going thought now would make it worth it as it could only improve their immediate situation.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286754#Comment_121286754

They had a plan in 67 to detonate a nuclear bomb in the Negev(I think) that would have been visible as a warning in Cairo.

I worry that some religious elements in Israel may see this as fulfilment of a prophesy (like some Christians also seem to) and so we may end up with competing types of "martyrdom" one on the Jewish side and the other on the Islamic side.

Seeing who can get to heaven first(with some Christians cheering from the sidelines. )

brickster69

UN General assembly debate starting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Boy6u3_XDE&list=PLwoDFQJEq_0be27xZdrtNKq6jFhK4aYnu

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286687#Comment_121286687

'Without the hostages, without the raping of women and the beheading of children by Hamas, we wouldn't have a conflict.'

Stop it now, this conflict started way before the horrific acts of Oct 7th.

There was debate on here soon after the initial attacks with people first saying it was particularly horrific babies were and then flipping to saying it didn't really matter the manner in which babies died, the critical point is that they had died when it was unclear just how their lives had ended.

There us no doubt that there are different levels of barbarism which is noteworthy in certain contexts, but not to the point of implying it is the root cause of the conflict.

For me, I am equally saddened for a baby dying in a powerless incubator when fuel was denied to the area as I am about those that die in gruesome ways. Not more, not less, equally. The latter is more gruesome than the former, but in a bizarre way, the dispassionate removal of resources from 2M people is more chilling in some ways because it is a decision being carried out by a countries government rather than some crazed individuals.

But, as pointed out, this conflict existed days/weeks/months/years/decades before Oct 7th and the taking of lives has happened with more certainty on the Palestinian side than that of the Israeli. That's indisputable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286735#Comment_121286735

Everyone talks about Israel being "disproportionate" without answering the question, "what is considered a proportionate response?".

It seems that even lifting their finger and Israel is considered to be acting disproportionately.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286836#Comment_121286836

Good point - it's a continuum of Arab-Israeli (and Jewish before Israel was declared) violence that stretches back decades, with peaks and troughs.

Raoul Duke III

Oh dear. Russia going all-in on its partnership with Iran. Hamas currently in Moscow.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286836#Comment_121286836

But, as pointed out, this conflict existed days/weeks/months/years/decades before Oct 7th and the taking of lives has happened with more certainty on the Palestinian side than that of the Israeli. That's indisputable.

This is exactly the logic that Putin uses re: his invasion of Ukraine; that the crisis didn't begin on February 24, but predates it considerably. He uses this as a pretext for "ending" the war that started long ago.

Hamas attacking Israel is the same as Putin attacking Ukraine; both malign forces are claiming to "end" a crisis that started "long ago". But both are wrong, and so is your reasoning.

It's a dreadful justification and it feeds into the narrative that Hamas spread through their propaganda.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286777#Comment_121286777

There are over 300km of Hamas tunnels buried deep under the Gaza Strip. They could be anywhere within them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286853#Comment_121286853

So far, from what I have seen it goes something like this:

(1) Surrender to the terrorists

(2) Let the hostages rot, just their bad luck to be there when the terrorists came knocking

(3) Negotiate with the babykillers

(4) Hand over Israel to the Palestinians

(5) Jews go back to where their grandparents came from (this was seriously proposed until it was pointed out that meant Auschwitz for many)

If they do wish the fight, the only honorable way is suicide missions down into the tunnels for hand to hand combat.

Gatling

All civilians hostages could be released in days if a cease fire is agreed on according to the qutaris , not all of the hostages just the civilians

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-all-civilian-hostages-could-be-freed-from-gaza-in-days-if-fighting-paused-qatari-negotiators-say-12993168

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286888#Comment_121286888

Nobody is supporting Hamas.

And no one talking any sense is using Putin to justify any part of the conflict.

The Palestinians are the biggest victims of Hamas.

Imagine the potential Gaza had if all the hundreds of millions, if not billions in aid, was invested into public services and quality of living rather than Hamas metastasizing the territory into a private military base for their own depraved, genocidal tendencies.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1717526540647362825

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286929#Comment_121286929

Lots of posters are supporting Hamas.

Hamas have it in their hands to end the current conflict. There was relative peace until 7/10.

Hand ALL the hostages back, hand over those responsible for 7/10 to the International Criminal Court, and hold elections in Gaza. Let the Palestinians vote for peace or war.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286945#Comment_121286945

There was widespread, overt support for Hamas's actions in the immediacy of their attacks on October 7.

This thread is an excellent (if not alarming) summary:

https://twitter.com/mishtal/status/1717456163980063029

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286904#Comment_121286904

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286945#Comment_121286945

Relative peace.

If holding 2M people as effective hostages is relative peace then I don't know what to say to you.

Telling that in your points to resolution, you don't even suggest Israel must do anything.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286945#Comment_121286945

You do not get it do you ? No one is supporting Hamas and everyone is condemning both sides apart from a few who cannot bring themselves to do likewise. Surely you condemn both sides for the barbaric actions that have been committed ?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286904#Comment_121286904

Accepting hostages when they are offered for release would be something they could do, no?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286975#Comment_121286975

That begs the following question: why the blockade on Gaza exists in the first place?

It exists because Hamas have attempted to procure weapons to instigate further attacks against Israel.

No country on the planet would allow the free passage of weapons into a hostile, neighbouring territory. Not only Israel, but Egypt also instigated a blockade at the same time, too - for precisely the same reason.

Hamas caused the blockade. Blame Hamas, not Israel.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286940#Comment_121286940

Imagine if Hamas had put all the money they used to build tunnels, manufacture rockets etc into things like health, education, sanitation....they are far more oppressive of Gazans than Israel is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286991#Comment_121286991

Infinitely more repressive, yet you won't find a single protest against Hamas, not one - yet they are the government representatives of Gaza, not Israel.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286688#Comment_121286688

Israel now have the bit between the teeth and will do as they wish, with a vengeance literally.

brickster69

Listening to this Israeli guy at the UN just now, i think the best bet for the people of Israel is to kick these loons in charge into the long grass forever.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286455#Comment_121286455

No but it doesn't change the overall equation, it Hamas survive then Israel's existence is not guaranteed.

It's much bigger than the fate of 220 people.

It certainly would ease the load on the Palestinian people but Hamas don't want to do that, that's against their own equation and reasoning.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286999#Comment_121286999

I doubt the anti-Israeli posters here and marching around wherever, even knew that Hamas were the cough duly elected cough government of Gaza. That info didn't come with their BDS instruction manuals.

dennis72

If hamas agreed to allow 2 a week of approx 200 civies that would be nearly 2 years for a ceasefire that would reward the oct 7 massacre but it would save 10,000 Palestinian children of course there is a wiff of untouchability about hamas terrorist org, setting a new president for acceptance of jadhadi actions anywhere in the world

Palestinian want there own land, "israel" Iran is the elephant in the room here.

McGiver

Gaza is basically a massive prison and Hamas is a prison gang controlling that prison. Simple as that.

Even Fatah doesn't want to and couldn't work with Hamas and had to disengage. In fact, shortly after winning the election, Hamas attacked Fatah in Gaza. Violent mafia take over and a coup. Gaza is an authoritarian, one-party, despotic chiefdom, where the chiefs are stealing all the foreign aid and the ordinary people suffer.

Anything else?

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286712#Comment_121286712

Yes. Bibi has tied his fate to destroying Hamas. So even if Hamas release all the hostages I don't think him and Gallant are going to agree to another long term ceasefire with Hamas. I think aside from the pressure from America to hold off on a ground invasion, Israel might be coming around to the idea of sealing off gaza and conducting special forces raids to free hostages. These incursions we see into Gaza could be really about testing how much strength Hamas have left to fight , before sending special forces on deeper missions into Gaza.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287180#Comment_121287180

It wasn't a wise remark from a senior Israeli embassy employee to publicly say that Ireland has effectively paid for Hamas' tunnels. Maybe he was sleeping mostly through diplomat school and / or he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. But there likely is some truth in it.

I wonder how much Ireland has paid directly from the state and indirectly from other organisations and people in this country to Palestinians or others active in Hamas in the last 10 years. And what the money was used for. Is that information public somewhere?

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287086#Comment_121287086

You are partially correct, if Israel agrees to a ceasefire it is a victory for Hamas, but the idea that Hamas continuing on is a threat to the existence of Israel is incorrect. Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world backed up by the most powerful army in the world . Hamas therefore can never be a threat to the existence of Israel. However Israel and America are a huge threat to other actors in the region if they are daft enough to escalate this to a wider war. Iran knows this which is why according to various intelligence agencies it has no desire for a direct confrontation with Israel. This is why there will be no wider war in the region.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287180#Comment_121287180

It's not really a prison though is it. Prisoners have actually committed a crime to get put there. The majority of people in Gaza are there because they or their previous generation had their homes stolen by violent colonisers and were forcibly relocated there. And of course half of them are just children who have never known any other life than one of constant oppression.

They also have far fewer rights than prisoners who generally have access to food, water and medical aid when needed and who aren't routinely murdered along with their children and entire families by the prison officers.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287286#Comment_121287286

It wasn't a wise remark from a senior Israeli embassy employee to publicly say that Ireland has effectively paid for Hamas' tunnels. Maybe he was sleeping mostly through diplomat school and / or he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. But there likely is some truth in it.

Isrealis aren't good at diplomacy, alright.

To be a bit balanced here. The current Isreali government is the most ultra-right of all governments in a democratic country anywhere on the planet right now. And that's one of the reasons why this disaster with Hamas happened, it's not a coincidence. When Benjamin Netanyahu lost his coalition potential, he reached out to the extremists as coalition partners to give him the necessary fourteen seats in the Knesset. This is how Itamar Ben Gvir, who in his youth was not accepted into the army for being too radical and has zero experience in security, became the Minister of Internal Security. They are incompetent people who have absolutely no business in those positions. We saw the result the day of the attack from Gaza that no one expected. As we know these kind of lunatics are useless while in government - see Salvini etc.

It's a warning to everyone - don't elect extremists and never ever let them into the government.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286687#Comment_121286687

That is the only route to peace, anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or is caught up in a vendetta against Israel and/or the Jews.

"Anyone who disagrees with my take is an antisemite"

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286687#Comment_121286687

"Without the hostages, without the raping of women and the beheading of children by Hamas, we wouldn't have a conflict."

So why were there 60-65 kids killed in the West Bank by Israel since january?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286893#Comment_121286893

I'm told don't trust any of the civilian casualty numbers but we know how many kilometers of tunnels are under the ground?

How do we, the public, know this is an accurate number? 'trust us bro' from US State Dept and IDF?

spakman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286754#Comment_121286754

You think they'll nuke Palestine? My God, that would be perpetrating a holocaust against the Palestinians!

And you think that's their only option? To eliminate the Palestinian people?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286991#Comment_121286991

Israel is looking to get over USD $14,300,000,000 worth of similarly fungible health and education and sanitation and will be using it for warfare purposes.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/us-israel-ukraine-aid-package/index.html

Go ahead and flood the tunnels. Don't bomb the **** out of civilians. That's oppression too.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287474#Comment_121287474

Maybe do some research yourself?

Hamas themselves claim it to be 500km.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286999#Comment_121286999

yet you won't find a single protest against Hamas, not one

Utterly disingenuous whingefest.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287483#Comment_121287483

Oh god no. I donth think that. Just I wonder if a time came whereby an Arab league threatened to anihilate Israel, would they do that as a last resort.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287088#Comment_121287088

"duly" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there when most Gazans alive today didn't exist before the last time an election was had. Gaza is not a democracy, don't buy that line. Simultaneously we are continually reminded how brutal a regime Hamas oppresses its own people with - but duly elected. Outta here with that clap.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287337#Comment_121287337

According to some arguments I've read on here: their crime is being born Gazan and Arab, no chance of parole because of Islam, and therefore it's the responsibility of Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, ie. Arab/Muslim nations based on this abject argument of sectarian and racial bigotry, to accept 2 million+ diaspora as deportees/expatriated prisoners.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287483#Comment_121287483

And on itself, given prevailing easterly winds.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287493#Comment_121287493

So you're just throwing out a number like 300km with absolutely no clue. Thanks for confirming the lack of confirmation.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287504#Comment_121287504

With the amount of issues tunneling has caused Israel in recent decades, it would be reasonable to think they have tunnels, bunkers, underground infrastructure of their own. So, the last, last, last resort. Sure. But that's mutually assured destruction regardless. Nothing on the surface lives and most survivors underneath will probably wish they had.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286853#Comment_121286853

Indiscriminately bombing everything is disproportionate. IDF has the capability for surgical operations but **** that.

Telling people to move to the south so they don't get bombed and then bombing anyway is disproportionate.

Laying 2m people under siege without access to food, water medical supplies is disproportionate.

Its not a war, it's a slaughter and it's been greenlighted by **** idiots who are too afraid to hurt sensitivies of people because of some sort of collective guilt from 80 years ago.

Letting Israel do it suits places too, because it becomes their problem.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287506#Comment_121287506

You mean, there hasn't been an election there in 17 years? Why is that? Just stating facts, it's not 'clap.' Gaza is a military dictatorship like so many that get in via elections.

Summary here: https://www.iemed.org/publication/the-year-of-the-victory-of-hamas/

Good quote: "In spite of the difficulties derived from continuous occupation, the elections were carried out in such a climate of freedom and transparency as never before witnessed in an Arab country; this was confirmed by the reports submitted by over 1,042 international observers (of which 33 were from Spain) who attended and supervised the campaign and the electoral process."

And a very high percentage turnout.

I remember the photos of Gazans with ink on their thumbs showing they'd voted in the 2006 election (forgive me if I have the dates wrong.) All sorts of crowing about democratic will of Gazans to vote for Hamas.

And, they got in, killed off Fatah, suspended elections and we are where we are today. Gazans wanted Democracy, instead, they got Hamas.

"Never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287567#Comment_121287567

Which is all a roundabout way to say, that the suggestion that Hamas is a "duly elected" body, recognized by anyone, least of all here, is a load of horse manure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287555#Comment_121287555

Just to respond back on those points:

• Israel isn't "indiscriminately bombing" Gaza; they are being as precise as they can to target Hamas.
• Israel did tell people to move south for their own safety, and when they bombed in the south, it was Hamas targets.
• Israel restored water supplies a long time ago, and they have agreed to allow aid into the territory.
• It's not "a slaughter". A slaughter is what Hamas did "indiscriminately" 3-weeks ago.

So no, your characterisation of Israel being disproportionate is false.

Given the circumstances, they are being as surgical as possible. Given the densely packed nature of Gaza City and Hamas preventing civilians from leaving / using them as human shields, Hamas is maximizing civilian deaths from Israeli air strikes.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287570#Comment_121287570

Never said recognized. Duly elected for sure; no election tampering, USB sticks stuck into voting machines :) nothing. It is the government the Gazans voted for in 2006.

Yeah, too bad it's a terrorist organization dedicated to spreading Jihad and eliminating Israel. Catchy election slogan I guess in 2006.