Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286940#Comment_121286940

Their land has been taken off them in by aneighbours which has broke every single agreement since 1945

Israela first president wanted nothing to do with west bank or gaza. They created 1000s of refugees and knew full well the absolute clusterfuck they would dealing with. Successors however decided that let's take what isn't ours and redistribute it.

When soviets did it, it was decried, when nazis did it it was decried, every colonial power has had to face up to their reprihensible history in the recent last, yet they allow this to happen unchecked

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287578#Comment_121287578

Do you have any verification for the claim that they are being "as precise as they can?" "As surgical as possible?" Canard.

The "Hamas Targets?" This is what the IDF describes a Hamas Target as, per Reuters: "The military has said the homes where militants live are "legitimate targets" even if civilians live alongside them"

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/

Residents said the bombardment of the south intensified on Oct. 25. One strike brought down several apartment buildings in Khan Younis, some 10 km (6 miles) from the Egyptian border.

What definition of slaughter are you reading from?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286940#Comment_121286940

As previously stated it has the potential to be a beautiful spot on the Med but Hamas are in charge.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287579#Comment_121287579

Never said recognized. Duly elected for sure

Literally the same thing for all intents and purposes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287581#Comment_121287581

Their land has been taken off them in by a neighbours which has broke every single agreement since 1945.

Who accepted the two-state solution from the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine, and who rejected it? It was the Jews who accepted it, the Arabs who rejected it - the latter of whom then launched a war against the Jews, and lost. The state of Israel was created off the back of that atrocious decision to reject the UN partition plan and launch war against the Jews.

Since then, Palestinian leadership has spent the past 75-years launching yet more wars against Israel. And you wonder why Israel is so defensive?

Perhaps if they simply accepted the two-state solution in 1947, it would have saved generations of animus and bloodshed.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287578#Comment_121287578

"Surgical " my arse! Just give it a rest will you. You're acting like a kid playing a war game on PlayStation. People are being slaughtered by the Israelis pretty much round the clock at this stage and the last thing needed is keyboard support for it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287595#Comment_121287595

Who accepted the two-state solution from the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine, and who rejected it? It was the Jews who accepted it, the Arabs who rejected it 

Is this a war between "Jews" and "Arabs" or Israel and Palestine?

There have been a lot of calls to avoid antisemitism.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287595#Comment_121287595

And why should they have accepted it. It was an immediate and indiscriminate displacement of 100,000s of people. It

The people who voted for it wanted to move what they considered to be the "Jewish problem" elsewhere. Basically ghettoised the middle east. This predates 1947 too.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287493#Comment_121287493

Research 🙄

That is Hamas saying Hamas have 500km of tunnels. Not a chance do they have that amount, the estimates I have seen from journalists who actually visited are much less than 100km. 500km of tunnels in Gaza would have every inch of the place covered, just map it out yourself on Google and see how excessive that would be, and all reinforced concrete? Laughable. 300km is laughable as well.

That is was slightly over 300km of tunneling might look like and all with reinforced concrete? Come on... and 500Km?? What would that look like?

Even 300Km in such a small area could only serve to bury the place in the years that come when they all break down.

Credit where it is due, the murdering **** seem to have a significant system but nowhere near that. It will still prove to be a nightmare for Israel, they have a vietcong on their hands perhaps?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287570#Comment_121287570

I don't think I see any evidence of support for Hamas in Ireland. There is huge sympathy for Palestinian people (and general strong dislike / distrust of the Netanyahu regime) but I'd say most Irish people view Hamas as scumbags and terrorists....it's impossible to defend anything they did on October 7th.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285242#Comment_121285242

I'm not necessarily in favour of banning companies from those countries, but if they choose to withdraw from Ireland because they're upset that people talk about human rights, then I certainly wouldn't plead with them to stay.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287627#Comment_121287627

sheer vitriol and embellishing language against

"Imagine the potential Gaza had if all the hundreds of millions, if not billions in aid, was invested into public services and quality of living rather than Hamas metastasizing the territory into a private military base for their own depraved, genocidal tendencies."

That kind of rhetoric doesn't interest me in the slightest, sorry.

...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286940#Comment_121286940

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287627#Comment_121287627

I can see both sides here. I can see that the state of Israel murdered a journalist going about their business in cold blood a year ago, and then attacked he funeral procession. I can see that they have continually and illegally taken lands that they have absolutely zero legal basis in taking.

I can also see that the hamas organisation is most definitely a terrorist organisation that has committed multiple atrocities, but the actual mental gymnastics that is required to think it's okay for any sovereign state to behave the way Israel has while being able to condemn others is incredible.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287635#Comment_121287635

Laughable? In your drawing, your tunnels are 200m wide and the connecting hubs are the size of 100 football pitches. Each 😂

If you'd drawn them to scale, you'd get a very different story...

A historic comparison, the Vietcong had over 250km of tunnels in the Cu Chi district of Saigon. This area is roughly the same size as the Gaza strip.

Not that it matters all that much though and I won't even make a guess at how many km of tunnels Hamas have, but maybe we will someday find out.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287189#Comment_121287189

Bibi is dead, politically. He tried to destroy Isreali democracy (by controlling the judiciary via the Orban/Kaczynski method), he aligned himself with ultra-right radicals and created the most ultra-right Israeli government ever. He will be remembered as the worst Prime Minister in history who allowed this terrorist attack to happen because of his incompetence.

He can try flexing muscles, bomb the whole Gaza, show a strong response, but he can't fix this. He's dead.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287721#Comment_121287721

Well thats my time in the tunnel game over.

Fair point, I didn't notice that. The videos I watched from within the tunnels then drew out a map much smaller but who knows.

I'll admit I haven't a clue and didn't consider the width.

I'm still right though.

keynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287592#Comment_121287592

IDF have actually said

"The emphasis is on damage, not accuracy"

Where I come from this does not convey surgical accuracy

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287635#Comment_121287635

Have you considered a Z axis?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287542#Comment_121287542

No, they are not. Completely wrong.

Hamas folks visited Russia today. How do you square that?

In reality we have got a strong evil alliance formed - Russia/Syria/Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah + North Korea and China standing aside watching all that.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287774#Comment_121287774

Absolutely not.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287721#Comment_121287721

Given they were controlling all foreing aid and money flows in Gaza since 2006 (with a brief interlude between 2014 and 2015), it's entirely possible they built all these tunnels.

But given their are essentially mafia chiefs, they must have spent and stolen huge % of that aid, plus they had to buy and stockpile weapons. Not sure how much construction could've been done.

The nature of Hamas regime is exact the same as Russia - organised crime mafia kleptocracy. It's about controlling money flows of the entire "country".

The only difference is that Gaza is a city state and they have this Palestinian opression and martyrdom narrative as a bonus.

Confirmed by today's Hamas visit of Pu-Tin. Birds of feather flock together.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287603#Comment_121287603

It seems to me acceptable to describe that war as a war btw Arab states and Jews(being a Jew is not a badge of dishonour)

The state of Israel had not yet be established in 1947 so there were no real Israelis at all.

When war was made on Israel then it was Israelis who defended themselves.(Jewish Israelis in the main I imagine)

There have indeed been recent instances of antisemitic language and one user has duly and thankfully been threadbanned.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287528#Comment_121287528

Mod

Warned for this.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285753#Comment_121285753

Both sides have made claims that can't possibly be true. But you only criticize one side. Kinda making my point for me there.

For all the claimed sophisticated you describe, you say none of it is remotely credible. Which is it?

For me they are equally not credible.

unkel

@McGiver - "The nature of Hamas regime is exact the same as Russia - organised crime mafia kleptocracy. It's about controlling money flows of the entire "country""

Funny you say that. Many years ago I did some research and there was virtually no hard evidence, but it made it likely Putin was one of the richest men on earth as a very small percentage of the profits of pretty much all business in Russia, landed with him or his cronies.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287777#Comment_121287777

100%.

That is the big picture, the full strategic chessboard if you will.

I know which side I'm on and it's liberal democracy.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287725#Comment_121287725

He should be finished as you say, but no doubt he will do his best to put all the blame on the intelligence services, but it won't wash with the Israeli public. Even if he does achieve his goal of dismantling Hamas it won't be enough to placate the public once the war is over and the inquest begins, but it won't stop him from hoping that if he wipes out Hamas he can survive. I honestly believe the man is a psychopath who only cares about being in power.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287825#Comment_121287825

Recommended reading. Bill Browder - the expert on Russian kleptocracy

Freezing Order: Vladimir Putin, Russian Money Laundering and Murder - A True Story - Bookstation

unkel

"When Bill Browder’s young Russian lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, was beaten to death in a Moscow jail, Browder made it his life’s mission to go after his killers and make sure they faced justice. The first step of that mission was to uncover who was behind the $230 million tax refund scheme that Magnitsky was killed over. As Browder and his team tracked the money as it flowed out of Russia through the Baltics and Cyprus and on to Western Europe and the Americas, they were shocked to discovered that Vladimir Putin himself was a beneficiary of the crime.

As law enforcement agencies began freezing the money, Putin retaliated. He and his cronies set up honey traps, hired process servers to chase Browder through cities, murdered more of his Russian allies, and enlisted some of the top lawyers and politicians in America to bring him down. Putin will stop at nothing to protect his money. As Freezing Order reveals, it was Browder’s campaign to expose Putin’s corruption that prompted Russia’s intervention in the 2016 US presidential election."

Jaysus. Sounds like a great novel. Not like non-fiction.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287840#Comment_121287840

He is psychopath. And that was obvious by his attempts to control the judiciary. Massive protests. Isrealis won't forget this. As they won't forget his alliance with the extremists. The extremists are ~10-15% minority in Israel, most Israelis want to have a European-style liberal democratic secural country.

He's only luck is that they have a government of national unity while there's a state of emergency (war). But he could use that to buy time. What ends the state of emergency? The objectives of the whole operation aren't clear, so how can you define it has achieved the goals and the state of emergency can end...

Destroying Hamas - how do you do that? Even the IDF is short for this IMHO. How do you destroy guerilla fighers hidding in densely packed urban environment freely mixing with civilians, using civilians buildings to operate? And how do you detroy an ideology?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287555#Comment_121287555

It clear that IDF are hitting specific targets when they want. Surgical strikes are not as clinical as you seem to think they are.

It's also clear (they've said as much) they are following a sorched earth strategy. And Hamas is using the civilians both as shield and to counter the sorched earth strategy. They are still launching attacks.

It's also not collective guilt from 80yrs. Hamas handed Israel the initiative when they attacked as they did the other week. That blew away any restraint that might have existed.

Obviously thats not to justify or condone either sides actions. The scale of the response is disproportionate.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287180#Comment_121287180

Anything else?

The prison gang analogy is not actually that bad, the key part being the 'prison' analogy.

As in inmates kept without free will, freedom of movement, control over their resources, etc, etc, etc.

Oh yeah, and Hamas is not the Palestinian people so you're still not getting a pass on Israel killing thousands of civilians.

Galwayguy35

The Israeli Ambassador was being interviewed by Sarah McInerney earlier on and made a valid point IMO when she said Hamas have stockpiles of fuel but won't let the civilian population use it.

She also said they stopped civilians trying to flee from the areas that were being targeted by the IDF.

The Israelies could be in trouble if Hezbolla decide to get involved, I've read articles which claim that they are well armed by Iran and the fighters are highly trained in combat.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287887#Comment_121287887

By surgical, I meant on the ground and yes that's risky and will bring its own problems, but they're among the best trained, best equipped force there is with full backing of governments with elite units

It very much is collective guilt. The likes of Germany falling over themselves that they support Israel's 100% and the USA so maybe people will forgetwhat one did and they other ignored and also turned away 1000s at one point. .

It was very much in their interest for Israel to exist.

A

Weepsie

There's nothing surgical about bombing the only working bakery in a refugee camp either.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287977#Comment_121287977

Like the multiple times they have bombed UN schools because they were being used to launch rockets from

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287977#Comment_121287977

The zoo gets bulldozed every few years as well. Mind you the days when Israel fully occupied the strip were grim indeed.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287997#Comment_121287997

'every bakery in a refugee camp is a UN school from 2014'

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287954#Comment_121287954

Nothing wrong with collective guilt.And not just the Germans.We should all be ashamed of how the Jews were treated.

If that is partly why the state of Israel was created then it was not a bad reason.

Guilt can be a wrong emotion but it can be upstanding and I respect Germans who were horrified and ashamed at what their parents did (in a long line of other Jew persecuters)

Israel is another matter but it has had a very hard hand to play.

I remember Nasser boasting that he would throw them into the sea.

I think they now feel that if they take their foot of Hamas' neck their own days will be numbered.

This is where we are now I think.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287911#Comment_121287911

44% people voted for Hamas in the 2006 election. Nobody revolted against them since them, did they? They all agree with the regime.

What free will and resources are you talking about? Their inability to self-administer Gaza in a civilised democratic way is not a fault of Israel.

They could have worked with PNA and some sort of a resolution could have been achieved. But they chose to orchestrate an armed coup d'etat against the PNA, and grab Gaza for themseves, and run it as a despotic one-party rogue mafia "state". Hiding in civilian buildings, firing rockets from them at Israel. It's their own doing, it's their own fault. Even the PNA aka Fatah couldn't work with them and want to have nothing to do with them.

This whining how poor the people in Gaza are and everything is fault of Israel is pathetic.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288075#Comment_121288075

The "coup" occurred when it was found out that- with US backing - Fatah were planning and preparing to act against Hamas.

brickster69

Unbelievable honestly.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1717279204130037806

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288094#Comment_121288094

It was an armed coup d'etat, not "coup".

I don't know if it's a conspiracy theory or not.

Even if true, Fatah would have had full right to act against them for the interest of their cause. Hamas was and is a terrorist organisation. It was obvious they would bring more instability, chaos and ultimately war and destruction. Confirmed mutiple times. They are a cancer to the Palestinian cause.

buzzerxx

A Palestinian Woman:

They killed my only child I'm

collecting his pieces from

under the rubble.

CNN:

Do you condemn Hamas?

A Palestinian man:

World, where are my two

children, the light of my eyes,

the joy of my life? Please, stop

our genocide, make Israel stop!

BBC:

Do you condemn Hamas?

Palestinians:

WE ARE BEING MASS

SLAUGHTERED!!!!!!

Please save us!!!!

WESTERN MEDIA:

Do you condemn Hamas?

The Inhumane narrative of the Evil, psychopathic Zionist controlled media for the last 20 days.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287954#Comment_121287954

What you saying is they should repeat what hasn't worked in the past.

You've just ignored Hamas attack the other week as a factor.

ForestFire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287286#Comment_121287286

We can't even build a 10km tunnel from the Airport into the city centre and you're telling me a bit of Irish AID money has built 500K tunnels in Gaza!!!🤨

I think we need to get a new recruitment team in 😯



(This is an attempted Joke, by the way, to try and lighten the mood)

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288163#Comment_121288163

Reminds me of the leader of Uganda using Irish money to buy weapons and fighter Jets off Russia all the while Irish soldiers families were relying on social welfare handouts

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288053#Comment_121288053

On the theme of a picture telling a thousand words, I came across this one earlier. Survivors of Buchenwald, some still in their concentration camp clothing, on a refugee ship headed for Haifa in 1945.

It reminds us why Israel is different. We don't have to like it, but it is.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288117#Comment_121288117

It's not a conspiracy theory.

sc1305pa-1.pdf

I can't say that Fatah is any better than the "cancer" of Hamas. It's leadership is utterly corrupt.

A post that requires to words but unfortunately Boards does.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1717633577192427831