Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318429#Comment_121318429

Yes he is right. It's a revenge mission. And they are using the war to further their illegal plantation of the West Bank.

Blinken on his way to tell Netanyahu to get a grip on the indiscriminate killing of innocents.

The whole world has turned on Israel. They need to keep their main ally on board. And their handful of anti-Palestine allies on Boards! 🙂

Economics101

An interesting piece from CNN whihc shows exactly what Israel is up against.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/03/hamas-leaders-messaging-israel-attack-pkg-kaye-ac360-vpx.cnn

And of course Iran is the main supporter of this evil nonsense.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318588#Comment_121318588

No, the Hamas attacks were horrific and anyone who took part should be found and either jailed for life or killed.

But how do Hamas recruit? If you're a teen/man who sees his family oppressed every single day, if you see friends and family jailed or killed for no reason, if you're seeing your loved ones being evicted from the home they have lived in for decades to let a Jewish person from Europe or Amerca claim it as their own

How long would you sit back and stand for that? Bloody sunday was the biggest recruitment coup for the IRA, This will ensure Hamas has volunteers for decades to come.

Cato the Elder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318705#Comment_121318705

Basically, the logic is that a bad reaction to something justifies what caused the reaction. So you can brutalise a people and if they commit a terrorist attack on you, they retroactively deserved everything they got, and more of the same brutality is justified. It's twisted but it works for a lot of people.

All Israel has to do to wipe out Palestine is keep doing what they're doing which creates more terrorists which creates more justification for wiping them out.

Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318704#Comment_121318704

what israel is up against is the consequences of their actions as it always has been.

hamas don't need to control any narative because ultimately israel can't behave itself so is showing itself for what it really is as it always has done.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318693#Comment_121318693

Plantation? Superimposition of the Irish struggle against the British on a completely different context in the Middle East. Fantasy, myth, and of course wrong.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318503#Comment_121318503

Those are points of debate in any moral discussion, but in terms of international law and war crimes, this conflict began on 7/10 with the war crimes committed by the Hamas terrorists.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318627#Comment_121318627

Seeing that West Bank is not being pounded into the Stone Age one could make the dark observation that they are being treated better for not embracing terrorism.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318606#Comment_121318606

Yes I found that puzzling. The much heralded hypersonic missile that Putin touted as being unstoppable has been stopped by the Patriot System. If Iran had something equivalent to this system it would be deployed elsewhere and we would be hearing about how it successfully thwarted the vast majority of Israeli airstrikes in Syria. Which is exactly what the Patriot system is doing for Ukraine in their capital city.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318429#Comment_121318429

I am simply explaining the realities of international law and its applicability to the current situation.

There are constant cries of "Israeli war crimes" from uninformed posters who cannot back those statements up with any reference to international law. Simply correcting that.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318600#Comment_121318600

The two state solution rejected by Hamas?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318738#Comment_121318738

Have we seen you on Boards before? I recognise your posting style and the previous iteration also got increasingly erratic until he flew too close to the sun.

Yes it's a plantation. What would you call the evictions and settlements in the West Bank? I don't expect an answer...

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318746#Comment_121318746

You are starting to sound like Charlie and his expertise around Bird Law. 😂

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318767#Comment_121318767

I think that is the third time on this thread that you have been embarrassed by an inability to respond to the substantive points made in one of my posts and have resorted to a personal dig. Whatever gets you going.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318705#Comment_121318705

Israel is trying to get them killed. ✅

They're terrorists because Israel is mean and made them terrorists, right? That's terrorist apologetism.

They had a chance of free election, they had a chance to self govern Gaza, to improve Gaza and make it great. We know how it ended up. Instead they chose "Death to Israel" - 16 thousand rockets fired at Israel civilians, built underground military complexes and committed the largest terrorist attack in history. Whatever issues occurred on the WB are irrelevant to that. Gaza was theirs. This is not how "oppressed victims" behave, sorry.

Stop playing this oppression and victimhood card. It's pathetic.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318773#Comment_121318773

Ha ha, oh please point out the 3 posts where this is even remotely true. You went into hiding when I rubbished your White Supremacists stance. Overheal took you apart in the international law and your "it's all legal" mantra. You're an expert in seeing tunnels in rubble. Substantive posts 😂

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318747#Comment_121318747

Apart from the settlers shooting kids and stealing peoples homes/lands all under the watchful eye of the IDF?

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318788#Comment_121318788

Beats getting a 500lb bomb dropped on your house because the local friendly Islamic terrorist you elected decided to start a war in your name by murdering innocent people.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318691#Comment_121318691

Civilians will die. That's a fact. Calling Israel to stop because "innocent civilians" is indeed defeatism. They cannot wage military operation against Hamas in this landscape and avoid civilian deaths.

Do you understand and recognise that?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318779#Comment_121318779

Yes, Israel is the biggest recruitment poster for Hamas. They could have made things better for the people living in Gaza but instead choose to run an apartheid state that oppressed the people for decades.

There hasn't been an election in Gaza inn17 years, that means not a single person under the age of 35 has had a say in who leads them, again I ask, would you stand for this? How much oppression would you take before you say enough is enough?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318788#Comment_121318788

How many incidents? How many were documented? How many were prosecuted?

VS 16000 rockets mister.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318798#Comment_121318798

So you're with the illegal Jewish settlers in the west bank murdering kids and stealing land?

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318798#Comment_121318798

I thought Israel weren't targeting civilians?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318807#Comment_121318807

How many were prosecuted 🤣🤣🤣

Are you for real?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318754#Comment_121318754

Uninformed posters? What about these groups...international law broken by both sides.

Have war crimes been committed in Israel and Gaza and what international laws apply? | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Is there evidence of war crimes in the fighting between Israel and Hamas?

The UN said that Hamas’s indiscriminate killing of hundreds of noncombatants, including children, and the abduction of about 200 others as hostages and human shields in Gaza, is a crime under international humanitarian law.

“Reports that armed groups from Gaza have gunned down hundreds of unarmed civilians are abhorrent and cannot be tolerated. Taking civilian hostages and using civilians as human shields are war crimes,” it said.

Legal experts said that Hamas and other groups such as Islamic Jihad may also be guilty of war crimes for firing thousands of rockets from Gaza into Israel.

The UN also said that Israel may be committing the war crime of collective punishment through its siege of the Gaza territory. The International Committee of the Red Cross agreed.

“The instructions issued by the Israeli authorities for the population of Gaza City to immediately leave their homes, coupled with the complete siege, explicitly denying them food, water and electricity are not compatible with international humanitarian law,” it said.

Amnesty International said it has “documented unlawful Israeli attacks, including indiscriminate attacks, which caused mass civilian casualties and must be investigated as war crimes”.

Human Rights Watch said that “multiple war crimes have been and continue to be committed in Israel and Palestine, with grave concerns that Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups are carrying out unlawful indiscriminate attacks harming civilians”.

The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza, which is run by Hamas, said more than 8,000 people have been killed in the Israeli assault, including more than 3,000 children.

Some groups have gone further and accused Israel of genocide, although lawyers said that is a harder crime to prove under international law.

-------------------------------

Amnesty, Red Cross, Human Rights Watch...even your beloved Leo calls it revenge.

Do I think Israel will ever be prosecuted? No. They will always get a pass. It would be great to get some of the Hamas monsters into the ICC.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318756#Comment_121318756

Hamas' and it looks like many posters' idea is one state solution with no Israel. The elimination of a state of Israel. This is actually Nazi/Russian totalitarian stuff from 1930s. I just can't believe anyone would say things like that in 2023.

They should come out and declare it. Just so that we know where they stand

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316144#Comment_121316144

It depends who allign's with who and if things escalate. As we have seen, unilateral sanctions are allowed to be imposed now by groups of states, so no one could go to the UN or WTO and complain.

As it stands it looks like G7 and most of Europe are backing Israel to the hilt and everyone can see that very clearly now. If it went that way probably even talk about sanctions would cool heads very very quickly, or should do.

OPEC countries imposed sanctions of oil in 1973 against Israel and it's backers so it's not as if it can't happen again. Just the Suez canal and straights of Hormuz closed due to missiles flying around would work especially given the Panama canals problems now.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318746#Comment_121318746

Would you go away with your 'international law'. The civilised world is disgusted at Israeli abuse of the term self defence as seen by their murderous assault on defenceless citizens. Even the UN and WHO are appalled etc

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318746#Comment_121318746

You've tried this repeatedly and I'm going to call you out on it every time I see it.

The conflict did not begin on Oct 7th and it is entirely disingenuous to suggest so.

Continuing to do this proves you know Israel is responsible for illegal and unjustifiable acts and trying to corral the focus to a single act of retaliation (barbaric as it was) is blatantly misrepresenting the facts.

And all of that is outside of the fact that Israel's response has been equally barbaric, disproportionate and counter to international law.

Shame on you and the others gleefully cheering an active genocide.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318819#Comment_121318819

Look at the language from the UN in your own post

"The UN said that Hamas’s indiscriminate killing ......... IS a crime under international humanitarian law.

The UN also said that Israel MAY be committing the war crime of collective punishment"

As I have said repeatedly, absolutely no doubt that Hamas has committed war crimes, and is continuing to do so, considerable doubt over whether Israel is doing so. Your link actually supports my points.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318842#Comment_121318842

Just pointing out the international law realities.

I have consistently stated that my observations on the international law points should not be taken as a moral endorsement of Israeli actions, just that in my opinion, they have acted within the parameters of international law.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318801#Comment_121318801

I don't.

They could target individuals on a micro level, training sites with bombs, leaders with special forces and supporters through UN enforced sanctions (if they didn't only defecate on the UN).

They are applying categogical collective punishment and are doing nothing at this point but creating future combatants who have been traumatized by what is happening now.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318843#Comment_121318843

Both sides are violating international law. If you dont see that, you are deliberately being stubborn. Ok, lets hear from an Irish expert in Bird Law.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

Article 49 of the Fourth Convention provides that individual, or mass, forcible transfer, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, “regardless of their motive”.

Proportionality

The scale of the bombing by both Israel — on 12 October 2023 Israel said it had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in six days — and Hamas is such that it is hard to see how the rules in connection with proportionality are being met. These rules require an individual analysis of each target of a bombing. There is simply not time in the bombing that is occurring for this to be achieved.

Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

Collective punishment

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

Article 58 of Additional Protocol I requires parties, to the maximum extent feasible, to “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas”. The rule applies in non-international conflicts under customary international law. The population density in Gaza of 5,751 per square kilometre (just slightly greater than that of Greater London).

Allowing third-party aid

Article 61 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power to agree relief schemes for the population of an occupied territory if it is inadequately supplied.

That Article goes on to provide, in addition, that all Contracting Parties shall endeavour to permit the transit and transport, free of charge, of relief consignments on their way to occupied territories. The question then arises as to whether Israel, in controlling the borders of Gaza and failing to provide safe transit to aid agencies, has done so for security reasons or in support of its siege.

No quarter given

Article 41 of Additional Protocol II prohibits an order that there should be no survivors. Israel’s threat to destroy Hamas could be viewed as a breach this prohibition. Declaring that no quarter will be given is also a war crime under Article 89(2) of the Rome Statute.

Protecting hospitals

Article 19 of the First Convention provides that medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. It goes on to provide that the responsible authorities shall ensure that those facilities are, so far as possible, situated where attacks against military objectives do not imperil their safety.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318808#Comment_121318808

Not at all just making the obvious observation that getting in bed with crazy Islamists leads to bad outcomes not just for your neighbours but for yourself.

Do you disagree with assessment that embracing ISIS like ideologies is not something that normal people should do?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318867#Comment_121318867

I will stick with the UN link you provided already which supports my position. Hamas IS commiting war crimes, Israel MAY be committing war crimes.

I have also produced numerous articles and links which point to the opposite conclusions to Ruth Fitzgerald about Israel, which only demonstrates the level of doubt. For example, much of her analysis relies on the definition of Israel as an Occupying Power, something which is contested and is not settled law.

On the other hand, there isn't a single serious argument anywhere that Hamas are innocent of war crimes. Surely, even you can see the difference between an unarguable position and a debatable argument?

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318810#Comment_121318810

Oh they clearly are but unlike most posters I am not approaching this clusterfuck like some sort of a soccer game where one has to pick a side.

Both sides are worse than the other with both Palestinian and Israeli innocent civilians dying because one side embraced crazy ISIS grade Islamism and the other side is way out there on the far right now.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318855#Comment_121318855

The Geneva convention prohibits the application of collective punishment.

That is what is being applied now.

This is is why the comparisons with the troubles and the querying of hypothetical British responses on communities in Northern Ireland. And each time Israel supporters dismiss such hypotheticals, it's an indication they realize how disproportionate that would be.

And yet here we are, reading people supporting the fact that a couple hundred kids will not be alive next week after they screamed about the barbarism of Hamas killing children.

It's completely unjustifiable and one of the most depressing observations of the Human race I've seen in my lifetime.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318894#Comment_121318894

The UN have to say may! They cannot be judge and jury. The ICC are the only ones that can prosecute. And you know that!!! You are grasping at straws now. The level of doubt now is it... :)

I hit Save way too early. Here it is again.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both sides are violating international law. If you dont see that, you are deliberately being stubborn. Ok, lets hear from an Irish expert in Bird Law.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

Article 49 of the Fourth Convention provides that individual, or mass, forcible transfer, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, “regardless of their motive”.

Proportionality

The scale of the bombing by both Israel — on 12 October 2023 Israel said it had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in six days — and Hamas is such that it is hard to see how the rules in connection with proportionality are being met. These rules require an individual analysis of each target of a bombing. There is simply not time in the bombing that is occurring for this to be achieved.

Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

Collective punishment

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

Article 58 of Additional Protocol I requires parties, to the maximum extent feasible, to “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas”. The rule applies in non-international conflicts under customary international law. The population density in Gaza of 5,751 per square kilometre (just slightly greater than that of Greater London).

Allowing third-party aid

Article 61 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power to agree relief schemes for the population of an occupied territory if it is inadequately supplied.

That Article goes on to provide, in addition, that all Contracting Parties shall endeavour to permit the transit and transport, free of charge, of relief consignments on their way to occupied territories. The question then arises as to whether Israel, in controlling the borders of Gaza and failing to provide safe transit to aid agencies, has done so for security reasons or in support of its siege.

No quarter given

Article 41 of Additional Protocol II prohibits an order that there should be no survivors. Israel’s threat to destroy Hamas could be viewed as a breach this prohibition. Declaring that no quarter will be given is also a war crime under Article 89(2) of the Rome Statute.

Protecting hospitals

Article 19 of the First Convention provides that medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. It goes on to provide that the responsible authorities shall ensure that those facilities are, so far as possible, situated where attacks against military objectives do not imperil their safety.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318902#Comment_121318902

Collective punishment

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

brickster69

It must be right even the US used self defense as a reason for attacking Syria the other week for attacks on the bases in Syria that they are illegally occupying. Rules for thee but not for me.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318813#Comment_121318813

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-conviction-west-bank-attack-1.5722948

Thankfully, Israel is a democracy with a functioning judiciary. The last government is despicable and tried to interfere with that and/or downplay the issues, we can agree on that. What we can't agree on is the degree of issues. Your narrative (taken from certain groups with an agenda) is exaggerated.

Fortunately, I have Jewish contacts who have both Palestinian and Jewish contacts in Israel. Nothing is black and white. Reality is never exclusively black and white. Your narrative of evil oppressive Israel is false.

Yes, last few years have seen many alarming incidents on the WB, you're not the only one to critise that. Israeli opposition and NGOs also critise that. There's no pan-Israeli conspiracy that you're alluding to - that the level Israel is oppressing yada yada. Now, has it occurred to you that the issues on WB could've been a response to the last 15 years of Hamas attacks as well as security issues in both Gaza and WB? Probably didn't. Israel is always the primary cause, right?

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318756#Comment_121318756

No the two state solution proposed at camp David decades ago.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318830#Comment_121318830

You do understand, although it's quite possible that you don't, that it is possible to be anti Israeli bombardment of Palestinians and also anti the actions of hamas, tell me that you can at least grasp that much.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318866#Comment_121318866

Your suggestion is fantasy and defeatism. Nothing else to discuss. Good that's clarified.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318925#Comment_121318925

Why are the Arab friends who border and used to own this land in Gaza not supplying any of this?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318912#Comment_121318912

Your own link disproves your point. The UN have said Hamas IS committing war crimes while Israel MAY be committing war crimes, this is from your own link yet you turn around and say that the UN have to say may!!! Comical Ali territory as I said before, where you are walking back on things you already wrote in stone.

As for Article 19, and protecting hospitals, you are completely missing the point. Here is the full text:

"Fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service may in no circumstances be attacked, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict. Should they fall into the hands of the adverse Party, their personnel shall be free to pursue their duties, as long as the capturing Power has not itself ensured the necessary care of the wounded and sick found in such establishments and units.

The responsible authorities shall ensure that the said medical establishments and units are, as far as possible, situated in such a manner that attacks against military objectives cannot imperil their safety."

The second paragraph is key to consideration. This must be read in conjunction with Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court which defines war crimes (and I have linked to many times before):

1. "Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;

When you read the two provisions together, it is clear that where a hospital is being used as a military HQ, or the military HQ is in a tunnel under the hospital, the "responsible authorities", in this case Hamas, have failed in their Geneva Convention obligations to protect the hospital as they have imperiled the safety of the hospital, and as set out in the ICC Statutes, it is not a war crime to attack the hospital. Similar provisions apply to refugee camps.

Think about it, if this weren't so, and you were correct, all the Ukrainians needed to do to stop the Russian invasion was to set up mobile hospitals across the main roads and the Russian tanks wouldn't have been able to roll over them. The Ukrainians didn't do that, because they were mindful of their obligations under Article 19 not to put hospitals into danger. Hamas, well, they don't care about anyone, not even their own people, in their mad bloodrush to eliminate all the Jews.

Now, similar discussions can be held about all the other points you raised, some of them complete red herrings, but I will only get further personal insults if I demolish your position any further.

Finally, a reminder once again, demonstrating that Israel are not in breach of international law and not committing war crimes, does not amount to a moral endorsement of their actions, merely showing that the hyperbole generated on here and on Irish media is inaccurate and misplaced.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318938#Comment_121318938

And rejected by Palestinians.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318967#Comment_121318967

Gaza is under the same blockade from Israel, that South Korea is under from North Korea. In fact, South Korea has an even worse blockade as it only has a land border with one country, while Gaza also has a land border with Egypt, from where all of that could be supplied if Egypt allowed.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318945#Comment_121318945

Sure, let's just kill 1000's of innocents instead.

And in a couple months we can revert to talking about how the Israeli intelligence bodies, special forces and military are the best trained, most equipped and most capable on the planet.

Shameful dismissal of a less homicidal path forward and invalidates any concern expressed for the victims of Oct 7th.

onlymeself

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318967#Comment_121318967

Israel are not letting anyone supply anything.

In fact, they have hit the Rafah crossing, (where aid has been building up) with missiles many times now.