Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333065#Comment_121333065

Why did Israel and it's politicians elect a nutcase PM? They must have heard all the crazy talk for decades. Why is he the longest serving Israeli PM ever?

Why did the nutcase PM only suspend the nuke Gaza minister from his cabinet?

Why did the PM invoke biblical texts to kill every man, woman and child when it's contrary to international law?

Those are all valid questions. Perhaps better to focus on those rather than spend efforts disputing casualty numbers in Gaza which is bombed on a daily basis.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333022#Comment_121333022

4000 children were Hamas? Really?

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332612#Comment_121332612

More? What was the first one? Please, do indulge me.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333085#Comment_121333085

The the Rabin assassination and the funeral trolling, it seems clear Israel wanted this path its been on for many decades now.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333085#Comment_121333085

Because

1. They have nearly been wiped out as a people
2. They are constantly being attacked by terrorists whose stated aim is to wipe them out

That pushes people into extremes just like the **** Israelis done pushed Palestinians into extremes

Now unlike yourself I am actually trying to think of solutions instead of approaching this like a perverse team sport like you are doing

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332996#Comment_121332996

Who is denying it? Israel is eliminating Hamas. It simply must do it for their own survival. Otherwise October 7th will be repeated time and again as their leaders promised a few days ago

Thousands of civilians are dying in this war. It's terrible, but I think it is unavoidable, given the above mission.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332907#Comment_121332907

There are plenty who say that Israel is not an Occupying Power. There are plenty who say that it is.

Ruth can have her view, but I and many others can have ours.

The problem Ruth and others have is that a "territory is considered occupied when it falls under “effective control of hostile foreign armed forces.” Traditionally, effective control requires three main components: the physical presence of a foreign military without consent; the inability of a local sovereign to exercise control because of foreign forces’ presence; and the imposition of occupying forces’ authority."

Now you might consider me a little stupid, and you have the right to that opinion, but how the fu8k was Israel an occupying power given that Hamas was chucking rockets at it every night and had the freedom to conduct 7/10?  Now, Israel was an Occupying Power prior to 2005, and may become one again, depending on the course of this war, but you can't be telling Israel not to invade while simultaneously holding the view that it has already invaded and has control.

By the way, I am not saying that I know more than a senior counsel on international law, but you can buy any legal opinion you want.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333104#Comment_121333104

Here you go :

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell after death. (Quran 2:85)

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (Quran 2:191)

Virgins await those who enter paradise. (Quran 3:15)

Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. (Quran 3:21)

Those who brag about doing good will go to hell. (Quran 3:188)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333134#Comment_121333134

Hamas was chucking rockets at it every night and had the freedom to conduct 7/10

For 2 years in the daylight at training camps and paraglide facilities all under the watchful eye of Bibi, Israeli intelligence, and Israeli satellites. 👁️

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332949#Comment_121332949

https://www.reuters.com/world/what-does-icc-arrest-warrant-mean-putin-2023-03-18/

Russia is not a member of the ICC, yet Putin has been charged.

That is why I say it is of no import that Israel is not a member.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332844#Comment_121332844

• Target Hamas leadership through the use of Mossad.
• Target supporters of Hamas through the use of sanctions (with the aid of other countries and the UN)
• Show the Palestinians that they don't need Hamas through supporting a two state solution.

Don't come on here and lie that I didn't suggest something when I most definitely did. It is completely disingenuous to be offered some proposed solutions and to dismiss them as waffling without any counter point.

You should be ashamed of yourself to suggest that I (and I presume you mean anyone else) cannot understand this war because I wasn't persecuted for centuries. It takes some gall to come on an Irish discussion platform and to suggest that. The Jewish people do not have the monopoly on suffering that they think is owed to them because of one particular period in time. They were horrendously persecuted and you are belittling the suffering of those who literally lived that and are calling what Israel is doing now genocide with such a post. A disgusting dismissal of the suffering of others. For shame.

Iscreamkone

Lefties supporting Hamas/Palestine are just this weeks version of the “cool” lads with Che Guevara posters on their bedroom wall.

Michael D definitely wears Che Guevara or Castro pyjamas (size xs). Our politicians are so pathetic on this issue. Michael Martin saying that the government are doing everything to secure Emily Hand’s release. Army Rangers on route? “No, Sorry! - The other everything!”

And don’t get me started on the glorious university brains calling for Israel to be cancelled. Embarrassing.

di11on

It is noteworthy that the international media does not express any sceptisicism whatsoever regarding the casualty figures emitted by Hamas.

A good case in point is the strike on the hospital which turned out to be an errant Hamas rocket as acknolwdged by most western intelligence and news agencies. Even Putin walked back his comments. The international media immediately and wrecklessley broadcast Hamas' figures sparking street protests across the world. In the end, a rocket fuel fire burned out some cars in the car park. Most media outlets have taken back the original estimates.

So why is everyone so quick to gladly accept the Hamas cricket tallies every time there is a puff of smoke?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333150#Comment_121333150

Thanks. Shows the disutility of it doesn’t it? As Putin is still at large. And because Russia doesn’t recognize the ICC nothing will happen with this. A vapid stunt isn’t it. “Alleged”

Just as Palestine can urge the ICC to issue warrants they’re just as useless because they are unrecognized and will not be enforced by any practical means.

Worth noting Ukraine is a state party so those state party nationals ie. Children are worth the ICCs attention to go seek after. (Non-ratified signatory)

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332858#Comment_121332858

Again, for at least the 2nd time to you directly, there's over a thousand Palestinian people in Israeli prisons who are there without having been charged.

It is highlighting in Bold the unequal treatment the Palestinian people feel they experience without any mention of the people Israel is holding.

Do you think that when people say that all hostages should be released, that these 1000 people should be included (it was 1000 before Oct 7th, God only knows what it is now)?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333168#Comment_121333168

How come? Putin can only travel to allies now for fear of being arrested. That is something.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333173#Comment_121333173

Are you actually defending the war crimes committed by Hamas? Your list of actions didn't include the release of the hostages by Hamas. I thought that was an oversight, because surely anyone who has put any thought into this knows that the release of the hostages is key to getting a solution.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333134#Comment_121333134

Send me a link where a reputable organisation agrees that Israel is not an occupying power. Did you know there are Israeli ground forces occupying Gaza today?

So your "view" is that Israel gets a pass on halting food, water, power, medical supplies and comms to desperate citizens thus causing a humanitarian catastrophe?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333176#Comment_121333176

Is that different for the POTUS or Bibi? Can only travel to Allies? 🫠

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333188#Comment_121333188

It's a war not a an occupation, as soon as yet they are done with Hamas they will return to Israel and build bigger walls

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333188#Comment_121333188

Yes, there are Israeli ground forces occupying part of Gaza today, but they weren't occupying it on 7 October. It isn't retrospective you know, the fact that Israel are considered an occupying power today because they sent in ground troops a few days ago, only buttresses the argument that prior to the ground invasion they weren't an occupying power.

di11on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333173#Comment_121333173

How many of these would you say are babies?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333172#Comment_121333172

I literally said in my post that what the Jewish people suffered in the holocaust was horrific so you should most definitely edit your post to remove your determining me to be a holocaust denier. Its completely unfounded.

But it is horrific to watch people selectively apply the 'Never Again' statement we all thought as a society we were on the same page with.

And if you want Hollywood solutions, you couldn't find more obvious examples than the belief that you can bomb your way out of the conflict By using more bombs in a 4 week period than probably has been used at any point since WW2. Do you even read what it is you are posting. Trite dismissal of possible solutions, insulting the person making those solutions, discounting the suffering of others, and thinking one group has the right to butcher another because of what happened to them in the past.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333126#Comment_121333126

Would you not expect that given the death total could be up to 10k in the Gaza strip, that new terrorists may be created just joining the terrorist organisations that replace Hamas.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333200#Comment_121333200

Occupation IS war.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333185#Comment_121333185

No where have I defended the actions of Hamas.

Answer the question that was asked of you instead of trying to deflect.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333195#Comment_121333195

Has Biden been indicted for war crimes at the ICC? Haven't seen it myself. He has been to Ireland recently and we are not an ally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_presidential_trips_made_by_Joe_Biden

Despite the pandemic Biden has managed to travel to 24 countries, including the West Bank.

Since he was indicted, Putin has only managed China and Kyrgystan.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333185#Comment_121333185

That depends as I’m fierce sure I saw some Israeli-biased posts arguing the hostages are as good as written off now because of the ground invasion and bombing campaign

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333224#Comment_121333224

The release of the hostages is top of the list of actions needed to get peace. That remains true.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333204#Comment_121333204

No I don't expect that. Presuming of course a lot of other things happening too, Palestinians to get their own state or states in lieu for recognising Israel and renouncing all violence. And Israel also under a lot of international pressure to remove West Bank settlements, charge or release prisoners, etc.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333229#Comment_121333229

Sounds more possible than some of the pie in the sky Hollywood movie solutions being suggested on here.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333228#Comment_121333228

Hamas reportedly will release hostages if there is a ceasefire. So if that’s top of list why no ceasefire? Bibi the Amalek smiter says the opposite, that the bombings will continue until hostages are released, like how do you even extricate hostages in the middle of live fire his position makes no sense for achieving the alleged top priority.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333229#Comment_121333229

I think you are more positive in your expectations then most posters here. The Israelis and palestinians and usually after such bloodshed those advocating peace are ignored.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333253#Comment_121333253

There will be a humanitarian pause, the US are pushing for that. The opportunity is there for Hamas to release the hostages during that humanitarian pause, giving the opportunity to turn the humanitarian pause into a ceasefire.

But you know, and I know that the death cult of Hamas will not do that.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333253#Comment_121333253

Most hostage situations in war zones involve extraction under live fire , helicopters and armoured vehicles in a lot of case no armoured vehicles at all

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333258#Comment_121333258

I'm realistic too. No such deal can be done without a lot of international pressure. On both sides. We were nearly there before back in 2005. It can be done again, but better and more sustainable this time.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333263#Comment_121333263

Neither will the death cult of Likud. They still have hostages of their own.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333146#Comment_121333146

Seems that soldiers and those at the bottom reported unusual activity but the top wasn't listening.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332967#Comment_121332967

So anon palestine sources = Hamas when it suits the argument of them being abhorrent pricks (they are that)

Generally accuarate and name palestine sources are not to be trusted though because it downplays that israel are behaving like abhorrent pricks (which they are)

Gotcha

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333201#Comment_121333201

So no credible link to back up your view then? I was actually trying to help you answer the question you are trying so hard to avoid. This must be difficult for you.

Lets have another go on Collective Punishment.

--------------------------

International Red Cross.

Israel/Gaza, Operation Cast Lead | How does law protect in war? - Online casebook (icrc.org)

Despite Israel’s declared intention to relinquish its position as an occupying Power by evacuating troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip during its 2005 “disengagement”, the international community continues to regard it as the occupying Power.

------------------

United Nations

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza? [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory | ReliefWeb

Israel has been occupying the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, which collectively constitute the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), since 1967.

Contrary to what the Israeli government claims, Israel’s withdrawal of its ground forces from Gaza in 2005 did not end its occupation of Gaza.

That is because, ever since, Israel has maintained effective control over Gaza, including its territorial waters and airspace, the movement of people and goods, except at Gaza’s border with Egypt, and the infrastructure upon which Gaza relies, rendering the Strip an open-air prison.

Under IHL, Israel is required, as the occupying power, to make sure that the basic needs of the population of Gaza, such as food and water, are met.

-------------------------

Ruth Fitzgerald SC

Providing supplies to the civilian population vs collective punishment

Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

------------------------

Let's rephrase the question for slippery eels out there.

(1) Has Israel been violating International Law with reference to collective punishment since the terrorist attack on Oct 7?

There are other articles I would like you to address. You have really struggled with this first one.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333271#Comment_121333271

Unfortunately I don't think an organisation will develop in Gaza with any support of the people there that will be advocating peace with the Israelis. Not any time soon. Certainly not a few months after burying all their kids.

You may say you are being realistic but how is it realistic to say that international parties are going to put pressure on either of the two factions to make peace? Do you expect the US to put pressure on Israel and it seems the Palestinians listen to no one Internationally.

m2_browning

But wait there is more:

—-

Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. (Quran 4:56)

Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. (Quran 5:33)

Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. (Quran 6:70)

Those who are tormented in the Fire will have their foreheads and backs branded. (Quran 9:35)

Whoever thinks that Allah will not assist him in this life and the hereafter, let him stretch a rope to the ceiling, then let him hang himself, then let him see if his struggle will take away that at which he is enraged. (Quran 22:15)

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/1721521838650503285

Do these people not have better things to be doing with their time?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333321#Comment_121333321

Aye, outcome no less a tragedy.

I agree with the initial assessment on main. Years of trolling the border etc meant when - if you look at the 10/7 map IDF put out, we will assume for sense and dignity this is accurate mapping, the initial reports from all across the territory must have initially seemed like another tuesday of people throwing rocks or getting it to border clashes etc. not immediately clear the scale being coordinated across the whole thing at once.

one thing that really rankles me though is the presence of camps under their noses for this sort of thing, even training under the clear sky with mock rifles. Should’ve picked that up. Should be a legitimate target.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333359#Comment_121333359

Yes enormous US pressure on Israel. And all parties must sign the agreement / accord.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333361#Comment_121333361

I don’t think a good amount of these kids being killed ever read or subscribed to that.

Overheal

UNRWA reports eighty eight of its members now dead.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas/?id=104617602

the highest losses they’ve ever had in any conflict.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333399#Comment_121333399

I don’t think any of the kids on both sides (including an Irish 8 year old girl) gave a **** about the thousands of years of history of whom killed whom in that region which you use to excuse and justify Hamas sparked death orgy

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333266#Comment_121333266

We aren’t talking Hollywood Rambo rescues behind enemy lines we are discussing there being safety guarantees for the voluntary hostage transfer.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333413#Comment_121333413

They are clearly telling lies.