Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337810#Comment_121337810

Who said it makes it right?

The poster who I was responding to thinks that 8 year old Emily Hand, her mother or the 200-odd hostages or the 1,400 butchered by Hamas are not victims.

An incredible thing to say.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337815#Comment_121337815

Holocaust denial is not unlike denial of thousands of dead children in Gaza right now. So I don't know why the Holocaust keeps getting dragged up like it ends all discussion.

What the IDF says is under dispute

What Hamas says is under dispute

What someone says under torture will be in dispute

Your FDD link doesn't really prove what it alleges, it seems to show the opposite: Hamas answers by indicating it will not use Human Shields. Asking them to house the population with them inside the tunnels they conduct military operations in, is the definition of using human shields. I fail to see how it follows that refusing to use them as human shields is proof of them using human shields. The article uses the one quote and then waxes poetic with no other evidence that would show the headline is true either.

The lawfare report is almost a decade old. This doesn't prove what's happening right now. Neither does knock-off politifact from the same era.

QED: still in dispute, to claim it's not in dispute is delusional.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337802#Comment_121337802

Sounds more like the dark ages.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337814#Comment_121337814

Not at all, that's what they'll have to do to achieve their stated aim.

Eh, no they won't. It's not some 'Gotcha'.

To repeat a ridiculous assertion doesn't make it less ridiculous.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337816#Comment_121337816

Well, at least you acknowledge it.

Do you believe that

a) Hamas are anti-Semitic

b) Is the core reason why this conflict exists?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337857#Comment_121337857

Please, provide your method of how it gets done then? Ninjas?

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336069#Comment_121336069

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337739#Comment_121337739

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121335774#Comment_121335774

Actually I asked what land had they given other than illegally settled…

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337713#Comment_121337713

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/30/gazas-blocked-relief

I think you’ll find they are.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337861#Comment_121337861

Hamas are anti-semitic (even though technically Arabs are Semitic in the original sense)

This conflict exists because the carve up of the Ottoman empire post WWI in the region never considered the people who already lived there

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337845#Comment_121337845

It would be incredible if that's what @Markus Antonius was saying.

He wasn't denying that the girl herself was a victim.

He was calling out the Israel war government draping itself in her image to paint itself the victim and using her imagery and others as the force majeure behind their own bombing campaign which has claimed thousands of more children as victims...

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337802#Comment_121337802

Back? To a lot of the posters here it never went away, it's the settler colonist mentality. Like the clip of the fat lad from Brooklyn in the Palestinian ladies back garden explaining to her "if I don't steal it, someone else will".

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337837#Comment_121337837

In 2011, and Bibi worked with them the whole time? My goodness!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337840#Comment_121337840

Well it looks like they have turned 90% of the world against them never mind the Islamic world.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337840#Comment_121337840

Yes and no but you reveal the true nature of Hamas.

Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th knowing what the reaction would be, yet did it anyway. They knew the terrible suffering its people would endure but went ahead.

Do they strike you are reasonable brokers whom one can make peace with? It seems to me you agree they are a death cult, but then the question is, what is to be done with them? Leave them be?

The second point is, it appears Hamas are surprised at the level of ferocity by the IDF. They knew there would be blowback but even they, the death cult themselves are surprised at the ferocity. Seems like they are running a little scared. Maybe the IDF are closer than we think to victory in wiping them out.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336881#Comment_121336881

That is not the case at all. Very few IDF will die because Israel does not risk a fight like that. The thousands who have died and who will die in the future are just the same as those who died in Israel on Oct 7th i e innocent people. Israel gives exactly the same consideration for them as the murdering Hamas scum gave to the Israeli innocents. That is the shame of it, Nobody learns anything.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337896#Comment_121337896

If the leadership is in Qatar or elsewhere, and the IDF is bombing thousands of dead kids, they aren't wiping anyone out, and there is no such victory. They will just be back later with more people IDF's own 'ferocity' has radicalized. That's a formula that's worked for Likud for decades.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337851#Comment_121337851

Holocaust denial is not unlike denial of thousands of dead children in Gaza right now. So I don't know why the Holocaust keeps getting dragged up like it ends all discussion.

What the IDF says is under dispute

What Hamas says is under dispute

What someone says under torture will be in dispute

Hmm, bit of an own goal.

No one is denying the many children are dying in Gaza but hard to get independant true figures. Yet, you parrot the Hamas numbers but in the same paragraphy say they its under dispute. Odd that.

QED: still in dispute, to claim it's not in dispute is delusional.

As I said, kind of like Holocaust denialism, regardless of the evidence some won't want to believe it.

One this.

So I don't know why the Holocaust keeps getting dragged up like it ends all discussion.

Because some parrot outright lies and falsehoods as if its true

E.g.

• Hamas are not anti-Semitic.
• Hamas don't use human shields.
• Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with this conflict or all Arab-Israeli conflicts going back to 1947 or further.
• Israelis who died or were taken hostage are not victims.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337862#Comment_121337862

Destroy Hamas as a group that runs Gaza.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337896#Comment_121337896

They wont be wiped out though. As has been pointed out, their ultimate leadership is not in Gaza and they will continue to recruit and radicalise in an environment where a generation of kids are now seeing their parents, brothers, sisters, friends etc annihilated by Israel.

An as Netanyahu or whatever ultra nationalist comes next see Fatah or whatever Palestinian leadership was to follow look like they might be getting a unified, coherent set of policies that could lead to a Palestinain state, they will then prop up New Hamas or whatever they morph into to undermine any chance of a successful Palestine. And we know this because Netanyahu has already done it before.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337879#Comment_121337879

Well Jews lived there too and have lived there for 4000 years.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337880#Comment_121337880

He wasn't denying that the girl herself was a victim.

He was.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121333669#Comment_121333669

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337940#Comment_121337940

What is happening now is not going to eradicate Hamas. It is going to strengthen them in the future. It is illogical to think otherwise. The future of Hamas is secured by the actions of the Israeli army and Government. Hamas might exist in the future by a change of name but their objectives will be exactly the same.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337802#Comment_121337802

We have never left it. To avoid losing territory, don't initiate total war on your neighbour.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337956#Comment_121337956

What you are saying is tantamount to me saying that you don't believe the 4000 dead Gazan children are victims.

Do you know what the word "proportionality" means?

You'd be forgiven if you said the word has lost all meaning in the last month...

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337886#Comment_121337886

And Bibi is a bit of a c*unt..his time is numbered.

Still doesn't negate my point about the true nature of Hamas, its Anti-Semitism and that being the root of this conflict.

Doesn't matter how nice the Israelis are, Hamas will still hate the Jews and want to kill them all.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337907#Comment_121337907

Ridiculous thing to say. Thousands upon thousands of Hamas militants and their commanders have been killed.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337840#Comment_121337840

Arabic nations will not do anything, as always. They're big on rhetoric but when it comes to taking resposibility for the Palestinian cause and their fellow Arabs, no action. Also, the Islamic world is heterogenous with competing interests - non-Arab Sunni Turks, Arab Sunnis lead by the Saudis and Arab and non-Arab Shias lead by Iran, all of which want to be some sort of a regional power. They spend more time scheming against each other and opressing their own people than anything else.

The neighbouring Sunni Arabs are way past of trying to go to war with Isreal. They lost wars they initiated multiple times and signed treaties with Israel. I believe Saudi Arabia will sign a peace treaty regardless. Even if Iran tries to pull South Lebanon, Yemen and Syria into the war. Yemen can't really do anything, that's saber rattling at best. Hesbollah can cause a lot of damage but only to its own detriment. The only real danger here is Iran, but Iran plays a long game and it's unlikely it will do anything directly. One trump card could be forcing Iraq Shia militias to fight, but why would they fight for a Sunni Hamas...

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337947#Comment_121337947

The Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs are closely related and both descended from the ancient occupiers of the region. Mizrahi up to about 50 years ago were called Arab jews and Make up about 30% of the population of the country.

You seem to be under the illusion that people who criticise what Israel are doing dont think any Jews should live there at all.

Pre the split of of the Ottoman empire, Arabs in the region were happy to sell land to Jewish people who wanted to move there. The three communities co-existed quite well.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337934#Comment_121337934

Hmm, bit of an own goal.

No one is denying the many children are dying in Gaza but hard to get independant true figures. Yet, you parrot the Hamas numbers but in the same paragraphy say they its under dispute. Odd that.

Not that odd, not an "own goal" (if this is tit for tat for you please desist): it would be in bad faith of me not to acknowledge that many users on this thread dispute the numbers. It would also be failing to acknowledge the rebuttals I've asserted to that, showing that on the main, the numbers are far more reliable than those disputes wish to allege. There has been much dispute about the numbers on this thread.

As I said, kind of like Holocaust denialism, regardless of the evidence some won't want to believe it.

Doesn't make either of those types correct. I'm not excusing denial of either.

Because some parrot outright lies and falsehoods as if its true

E.g.

Hamas are not anti-Semitic.

Hamas don't use human shields.

Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with this conflict or all Arab-Israeli conflicts going back to 1947 or further.

Israelis who died or were taken hostage are not victims.

I haven't seen anyone argue Hamas isn't antisemitic.

I haven't seen anyone argue Hamas has never used human shields. Users have also tried to offer apologia for the IDF that they treat each bomb (of the thousands they've dropped) on a quote "case by case basis." running around with a quote from 2011 or a report from 2014 isn't 'case by case basis' for verification of such use of human shields. Evidence you provided shows that the current stance of Hamas is to not put the civilian population in the tunnels -- this patently avoids them being used as human shields in those tunnels...

I don't recall where anyone said anitsemitism had nothing to do with the conflict, the point they were making iirc is that the primary instigating factor for this conflict was crimes - murdering journalists, kneecapping kids, apartheid, etc.; totally debatable -- one of the roots of the entire shebang is the Al Aqsa Mosque, the disputes over it, by definition are sectarian (and the ecumenicals are rife with phobias).

I don't recall anyone saying hostages and dead innocents were not victims, as i explained in a post above, to an example you think matched this description but which doesn't tbf.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337964#Comment_121337964

That hasn't been the case since post ww2 era. Theres no "to the victor belong the spoils" anymore.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337946#Comment_121337946

This means that Gaza will have to be occupied by someone. Either the IDF or some international peacekeeping force and stop Hamas or whatever their cousins are from taking power. Build a society where youngsters can turn their attention to something other than Hate for their Jewish neighbours which is sadly endemic.

I asked before, what would you do?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337959#Comment_121337959

The objectives of Radical factions have been in existence since 1947 when Arabs tried to drive the Jews back into the sea.

Anti-Semitism has existed for thousands of years. No one is going to think that this conflict is going to solve it.

What would you do?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337978#Comment_121337978

And thousands upon thousands of new members to secure the future. And all of them more violent and willing to shed blood because they will have lived through the brutality of the present conflict. It will be fresh in their memories. Nobody seems to learn that repeating history doesn't work.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337981#Comment_121337981

You dont understand - they are trying to either provoke neighbouring countries to rise against Israel or provoke the populations of those countries into revolt. And because it may not work does not mean its not their. Either way, the overreaction by Israel is doing nothing to advance their long term security.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338000#Comment_121338000

Well the two state solution is out now as seems likely. Peace even temporary is unlikely so it looks like Rinse and Repeat.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337967#Comment_121337967

What is proportional?

Israel kill exactly the same number of Gazans as they lost on October 7th?

Perhaps vent your ire at Hamas for failing to protect them.

Not ONE bomb shelter is available for them, yet there are 500km of tunnels under Gaza but only available for Hamas militants.

Imagine the IDF occupied their own tunnels and bomb shelters while its civilians remained out in the cold. Inconieveable right? This is what Hamas are doing?

Even the Nazis built bomb shelters for its own people.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337978#Comment_121337978

Not since Oct 7th, in anything I can find online. Unless you’ve a source?

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337989#Comment_121337989

Ideally peacekeepers. Israel prior to Oct 7th werent acting in a peaceful manner towards Palestinians. West Bank is proof of that.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121336135#Comment_121336135

Of course the letter (from Edward Burke and others in to-day's Irish Times) attacks the original signatories: that was the whole point - to attack a very unbalanced letter. The rest of your post does not convince me in the least.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337969#Comment_121337969

When was Israel, "nice" ?

McGiver

The UNRWA has an issue with jihadist/genocidal narratives.

https://twitter.com/UNWatch/status/1721674136945058206

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-teachers-praised-hamass-october-7-massacres-report-finds/

More broadly, the IMPACT-se study found that at least 100 Hamas members who have carried out terror attacks against Israelis in recent years are graduates of the UNRWA education system.

The Monday report highlights comments by 14 UNRWA members, and examines the participation of UNRWA school graduates in terror attacks against Israeli civilians as well as the presence of antisemitic and jihadist content in textbooks used in UNRWA schools.

What is worse is that the UNRWA school curicullum is indoctrinating Palestinians with anti-semitism.

unkel

@Overheal - no response to my question here then?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337725#Comment_121337725

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338017#Comment_121338017

Just a few posts ago you decried victim blaming, and declared victim-blaming was antisemitism.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337735#Comment_121337735

So, what tropes is #17626 engaging in now? Propping up the Nazis as a good bunch of lads who built bomb shelters!

brickster69

Hopefully they have plenty of Brandy stocked up

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721922773117960421

McGiver

Yet another IHL legal opinion.

https://cmeil.gmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2023/11/Wheatley_LOAC_FINAL.pdf

Israel’s actions in response to Hamas’s murderous rampage of October 7, 2023, have thus far been lawful under international law and the law of armed conflict, as interpreted by the U.S. Department of Defense and applied in American military operations since World War II. Israel’s siege of Gaza reflects a longstanding and legitimate means of waging war, and the available evidence does not support the conclusion Israel is engaged in unlawful “collective punishment.”

As to the allegation that Israel has forcibly transferred civilians in violation of  the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, Israel’s call for civilians to evacuate northern Gaza ahead of its  bombardment and ground invasion is more in the nature of an advance warning to civilians of an imminent attack,  as is required by customary international law—not a forcible transfer of civilians.

As to Israel’s use of white phosphorus, there is no categorical prohibition under international law on the use of white phosphorus and Israel is not a party to any treaty outlawing the use of white phosphorus in urban areas. Moreover, there has been no showing that Israel’s use of white phosphorus in recent weeks has violated any of the principles of the law of armed conflict.

Finally, as to its bombing campaign generally, although Israel’s bombardment has led to civilian deaths, the simple fact that civilians have been harmed in war does not mean a war crime or a violation of the law of war has occurred; particular evidence of a disregard for the principles of distinction and proportionality is necessary. Yet as with the white phosphorus analysis, there has been no evidence put forward suggesting the design of Israel’s bombardment was to attack civilians or flout the law of armed conflict; indeed, its call for civilians to evacuate suggests the opposite is true.

In addition, Hamas’s own failure to abide by the law of armed conflict—particularly by using civilians as human shields—cuts in Israel’s favor in a proportionality analysis. For these reasons, Israel has acted lawfully in is prosecution of the war against Hamas.

Hope it's clear. Any ICC war crimes accusation against Israel at the ICC is going to be legally very difficult. Its significance would be mostly political.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338005#Comment_121338005

Nobody will rise. The only potential candidate is Hesbollah and they won't risk it. Egypt and Jordan will certainly not rise (both full blown autocracies). Syrian regime barely keeps itself in power.

I hope you can speak with someone Jewish re "overreaction", they would explain it to you.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337537#Comment_121337537

“The biggest fake news story of modern times”.

Hyperbole much?

How about weapons of mass destruction?

Visegrad 24 is not a news agency. They are a couple of lads online putting their own biased spin on other people’s stories for clicks.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338081#Comment_121338081

This has been explained and/or exemplified, dozens of times on thread by now

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/21/israel-tells-citizens-to-leave-egypt-jordan-as-soon-as-possible

etc.

You also cannot have missed posts calling for them to be formally absorbed as part of egypt, the sinai peninsula, jordan, saudi arabia, iran, etc. - these are real arguments being made in thread. I've called it out as Islamaphobic and supporting an ethnic cleansing.

The refugee camps Israel bombed, were refugee camps because they were already ethnically cleansed in previous conflicts. They're never going back to where they originally came from, they are a diaspora. It is ethnic cleansing. I don't think it is unreasonable or illogical to say so. In 2016, there were 4.6 million Gazans living in the strip, now we are discussing 2 million. Where did 2 million Palestinians disappear? Their return was never allowed. It will never be allowed. For the handful that are considered useful, ethnic arabs and muslims who are allowed to stay in Israel are treated as second class citizens.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43946930

brickster69

Biden facing a loss of confidence in middle east policy. Looks like he will get his trixie up following Afghanistan and Ukraine

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/06/u-s-diplomats-slam-israel-policy-in-leaked-memo-00125538

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337983#Comment_121337983

No, I dont think that, but I do think there is a naivety about the conflict and the seeds of the conflict.

True, post WWI and drawing lines on a map did not help the situation, but what people are denying is an endemic level of Anti-Semitism that is at the root of this issue also. We heard it here sure. If only the Jews were a bit nicer to their Arab neighbours, there would be peace. It's absurd tbh.