Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121344886#Comment_121344886

Ward that the Israelis have never started and have always only defended themselves.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345920#Comment_121345920

You were already given a Reuters article above. You should also contact Reuters to offer your Middle East expertise consultancy services. Either their journalists are wrong, or probably just antisemitic???

CAN U.S. CITIZENS AND DUAL NATIONALS LEAVE GAZA?

The Qatar-mediated deal allows for limited evacuations of foreign passport holders. A list was agreed between Israel and Egypt, a Western official said.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345981#Comment_121345981

I'm convinced that nobody truly believes this lie, some will pretend they do, but they know what the reality is.

We've had all sorts of claims made on here like those who voice up for the lives of Palestinians are antisemitic, and holocaust deniers, and pro-Hamas etc etc etc.

This is just another one of them seeking to absolve the most military powerful country in the region as it carries out the genocide it's leaders said it would.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345948#Comment_121345948

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67357917.amp

A spokesperson for the UK Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office said it was "working round the clock to ensure all British nationals in Gaza who want to leave are able to".

"This involves submitting all details of British nationals and eligible dependants to the Israeli and Egyptian authorities. The authorities then review all cases and give permissions to cross."

There's 2 sides to the border, in order to get to the Egyptian side, Hamas would have to let you through, but at the Egyptian side there seems to be a list Israel and Egypt approve. So Hamas can prevent people from leaving Gaza and Egypt and Israel prevent you from entering Egypt.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345981#Comment_121345981

I guess it is similar to how Cromwell only defended his country against the savage Irish attackers................. 🤔

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121344993#Comment_121344993

Just two posts above yours was a post 'arguing on the side of Hamas', suggesting that Israel was exaggerating the barbarity of the attacks and/or was responsible for them.

Most of the rest of the thread is taken up by people arguing that the actions of Israel and Hamas are in some way morally equivalent, or that those of Israel are worse.

All of this constitutes 'arguing on the side of Hamas'.

Donald Trump

It's quite clear at this stage (well it was said from the outset) that Israel are obviously just going to stretch out their window for killing as many Palestinians as possible.

They will ignore the growing international calls for as long as they can, and brazen it out until they are actually stopped by the US. Even then, all the US can do is temporarily stop their money and military aid flowing in, so they'll get to continue on after that's stopped until it is about to run out. Then they can hold their hands up and say "we are sorry US, we didn't mean it. Please start giving us money again" and we'll go back to the start of the cycle.

And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all

The needle returns to the start of the song

And we all sing along like before

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345718#Comment_121345718

Undermining the PLO to the advantage of Hamas was a deliberate strategy of Likud.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4268794-the-symbiotic-relationship-between-netanyahu-and-hamas/

Further, there were three “mini wars” with Hamas during Netanyahu’s last 14 years as prime minister. There was a not-so-tacit agreement between Hamas and Netanyahu that, after each round of fighting, Israel would allow funds from Qatar and elsewhere to flow back to Hamas. This was against the recommendation of much of his own security establishment. As has been seen, those funds were used by Hamas to build tunnels and stockpile weapons rather than build internal infrastructure for the people of Gaza.

The Israeli security apparatus often wanted to go after the leadership of Hamas in a concerted way during many of these mini-wars. They were kept from doing so by Netanyahu — because he needed Hamas as his foil against the PA. He had no long-term strategic objectives, only short-term political ones.

With Hamas in power in Gaza, coupled with a deliberately emaciated PA in the West Bank, Netanyahu could claim there was no Palestinian partner for negotiation, and he could continue to crisscross the West Bank with settlements.

blanch152

The Articles of War website continues to give some hard analysis of the allegations of war crimes. A pity it doesn't seem to allow links. From a recent article about ambulances:

"Ambulances have regularly been used by armed groups to carry out attacks and transport weapons. In 2011, in Iraq, insurgents used ambulances packed with explosives to attack police buildings. In 2016, ISIS used two ambulances in a coordinated suicide attack in Samarra and Tikrit that killed over 25 people. The ICC has recent experience investigating perfidy and treacherty. As part of its preliminary examination into Afghanistan the Prosecutor of the ICC concluded that the Taliban has potentially committed the war crime of killing or wounding treacherously a combatant adversary (art. 8(2)(e)(ix)), citing the example in 2011 of the Taliban using an ambulance to carry out a suicide attack on the Afghan National Police training centre in Kandahar that killed 12 officers and injured others (para. 156). Similarly in 2018, the Taliban drove another ambulance laden with explosives into the government and business district of Kabul detonating it and killing over 100 people and injuring over 235 others. The ICRC has noted that the misuse of ambulances by fighters, “gravely compromises the neutrality of health-care providers,” an abuse of trust, that has “serious consequences in terms of public perceptions, effectiveness and security.”"

From reading the whole article, the ambulance incident definitely involved a war crime, possibly on both sides. If Hamas was using the ambulances to carry weapons and soldiers to attack the IDF, that is a war crime. If the IDF didn't give specific warnings about the ambulance in advance, even if it was carrying weapons and soldiers, that is a war crime.

What was truly horrifying from the article though, was the scale of attacks on ambulances in other conflicts:

"From 2016 to 2017 alone, 243 ambulances were attacked in Syria with the Syrian government responsible for 123 and Russian forces damaging or destroying 60 others."

Where is the outrage from Paul Murphy et al about this?

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342367#Comment_121342367

https://twitter.com/RamiJarrah/status/1722269126511694240

Further to my point yesterday here's another hard leftist who's got it all figured out. These people are so thick it's unreal.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342931#Comment_121342931

The beaker people are coming to take back wickow

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346116#Comment_121346116

More "hey look over there".

Isn't it absolutely mental that someone is able to justify in their own mind a missile strike on ambulances full of medics and injured people, based on the fact that maybe a decade earlier some other completely unrelated people used one in an attack somewhere.

Join us next time when blanch excuses Israeli soldiers lining up Palestinian women along a trench and machine gunning them into it by relating how there was a story of how a Vietcong woman once hid a bomb under her skirt during the Vietnam war*

(They haven't done this as far as I am aware..........yet)

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346081#Comment_121346081

I haven't seen one post on here denying the massacre on October 7th or the savagery of the attack. However, it is right to question if all the stories are correct. The main one being 40 babies beheaded, which is the most visceral of images and was used by many to justify any response and is completely fake.

There are plenty of armchair military analysts on this thread and it's obvious that Hamas did not have the weapons needed to cause some of the destruction shown from that day, which also resulted in the most gruesome damage to victims. There is a lot of eye witness evidence that the IDF was fairly indiscriminate in their attacking of Hamas infiltrators using tanks shells and attack helicopters which resulted in numerous civilian casualties. A lot of this is in keeping with their own doctrine to stop hostages being taken.

These images and stories are being used to justify the further killing of Palestinians in Gaza and that it why it is important to call them out. If you feel that having 1200 citizens murdered isn't enough justification for the actions your committing without spicing things up with stories of babies beheaded etc., then your planning some truly barbaric retaliation.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345831#Comment_121345831

The world has changed (and most of it is bad), but that does not absolve Israel for policy actions (or inactions) over the past 30 years IMO.

Regardless of negative trends like rise of Islamic fundamentalism + associated violence etc. + the massive problems in the wider Arab world, the Palestinian issue exists as a kind of internal problem for Israel they have shown no interest in "solving" (other than by eventually winning [somehow] and getting their way in full, as I said).

You even kind of admit that yourself stating they were content to "build high walls" and I would say, not just watch the Arab world burn itself up, but throw some matches and petrol on the fires if possible.

For years at height of US post Sept. 11th mania for great projects to remake the ME, like the Iraq invasion & occupation, I seem to remember those Netanyahu govts. + Israeli right egging on the US to (boldly?) go forth and invade Iran too and get rid of the Mullahs for them (given disaster of Iraq, what kind of shít show would that have been I wonder)!

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345793#Comment_121345793

International law agreed upon by the international community which you have dismissed as banana republics, chiefdoms etc.

So when it suits you, you are all for what is agreed upon by the international community but when it doesn’t suit you, you dismiss the international community as a bunch of tinpot dictators.

Hypocrisy.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345788#Comment_121345788

🤣 This is the line you took from my posts to respond to with regards to Israel being an occupying power? All the links I provided and this is the only line you have contention with. Jokeshop!

I'll tell you what, little busy now but I will respond with a full list later and you can help me crunch the numbers. Deal?

In the meantime why don't you actually answer the question I posed?

Here it is again...

"Would you feel Ireland was occupied by Britain if they controlled our territorial waters, air space, 6 of 7 border crossings, maintained a no buffer zone, controlled the movement of people and goods in and out, were fully dependent on them for water, power, telecoms etc etc? Be honest..."

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346116#Comment_121346116

Alright, what has this got to do with the topic of discussion?

Also, this website?

https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacks-misuse-ambulances-during-armed-conflict/

"Concluding Thoughts

The purpose of this blog is not to point fingers, but to shed light on the place of IHL in legal analysis of the use of lethal force in the Gaza/Israel conflict. The protection of medical units and transports is a primary concern of the First Geneva Convention. More generally, it fundamentally underpins the work of the ICRC and other humanitarian organizations in alleviating suffering in war.

We must articulate IHL, including its rules for targeting medical transports, in a manner that it is not simply a means to green light military operations no matter their human cost. IHL is a legal minimum, where we strive for the lowest common denominator of compliance. It is to be, as far as possible, a mitigating force on the harmful effects on war. This requires looking beyond the law, in social, diplomatic, and political forums to push for better protection for those vulnerable in conflict. This imperative is particularly acute with respect to using lethal force against medical units and transports like ambulances, where getting things wrong causes unnecessary suffering to those who are the most vulnerable in conflict."

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346113#Comment_121346113

No doubt and there was a certain logic in it from his point of view.

Hamas or similar was still an inevitable outcome though, the trends of the turn to native thinking, away from European concepts like socialism were well in motion by then, the split from within the Muslim Brotherhood was developing long before Bibi ever came to power in his party, nevermind being pm.

He pushed on an open door.

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346022#Comment_121346022

This is not a genocide. You should not use such a word so lightly and incorrectly. The population of Gaza and both Palestinian territories has risen steadily over the years, which is literally the opposite of a genocide.

The civilian collateral casualties would not be happening if Hamas would let them leave after Israel drops the leaflets and texts them to warn about upcoming bombings in advance. Hamas is the only party that wants all the Palestinian civilian deaths (for PR).

Hamas openly declaring its aim to kill all Jews, that would be genocide.

The most discriminated against group in the Middle East is actually Christians whose population has decreased from 20% to just 4%, that sounds like a genocide.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346116#Comment_121346116

There was a law professor on the Tonight Show on VM1 last night saying it is completely illegal under international law to bomb a working hospital with doctors and patients in it, even if you believe there are terrorists or weapons there. There is no ambiguity....it is strictly forbidden.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346409#Comment_121346409

Yes I saw that professor from Galway. I thought it was Prime Time but you are correct. He was superb. He cut through the muddied water with ease.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345685#Comment_121345685

Only one of those things are actually relevant to palestine/israel.

Other stuff that happened,

Taylor Swift

Britney getting emancipated.

Garth Brooks concerts being cancelled.

You even included china and russia in that.

You've chosen an arbitrary point in time and decided that nothing after that matters, except for all the non related stuff that you mentioned.

There were many stumbling blocks to the two state solution but to place all the blame on the Palestinians, and to pick that one moment in time is just silly.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346203#Comment_121346203

They call international aid organisations "lobby groups" too when it doesn't suit the "narrative". Honestly, the depths...

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346197#Comment_121346197

They didn't say 40 babies were beheaded. They said up to 40 babies were killed in a particular village, some of whom were beheaded. It's not completely fake. It's a true statement. For some reason people have latched on to the fact that not all the babies were beheaded as proof that it didn't happen. However, people, including babies, were burnt alive and some beheaded. Video and photo proof of this has been shown to journalists.

I don't know how you can say that no one is denying the savagery of the attack and then in the very next sentence deny the savagery of the attack.

"none of the children were decapitated, sure they were only murdered or burnt alive. That's totally different!" If that's your position then you need to have a look at yourself.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346414#Comment_121346414

He was talking about the IDF too and was annoyed with them. He says you would expect the worst of Hamas as a terrorist group and for them to behave like evil killers but the IDF's behaviour was seriously questionable for a so called legitimate army. There was also a doctor from Medecin Sans Frontieres who has spent a lot of time in Gaza in the last ten years accusing Israel of lying all the time : she says many of the claims the IDF have made to justify their activities in the last decade have been bare faced lies (use of human shields, weapons and ammunition stored in hospitals etc).

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346081#Comment_121346081

I would argue that the killing of civilians is morally equivalent to the killing of civilians.

The Israeli response is a inhumane atrocity. And yes, I have used the exact same phrase to describe the Hamas attack. That doesn't mean I'm taking the side of hamas. Hamas are scum. So is the Israeli government and military that are killing thousands of children. I would say that someone has to have a blind spot in their morals if they think that the Hamas attack is bad but the israeli response is ok. Literally thousands of children have been killed. That is morally reprehensible. It is disgusting a repugnant.

Now, tell me that because I'm against the bombing of children, that I'm actually supporting the scum that are Hamas. I'm sure someone here will find some way to make it seem ok that children are being killed by indiscriminate bombing, that it doesn't really matter and that I'm actually a Jihadist.

brickster69

Belgium and Spain considering recognizing Palestine as a state - Al Jazeera

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346417#Comment_121346417

If you think the world of 2000 is the same as now, then I have magic beans to sell you.

The point is of course is that a window of opportunity arrived, where the stars aligned somewhat to give the Palestinians a lot of what they wanted.

But they blew it.

This is on Arafat and the wider PLO movement.

Jimi H

Just watched a video of an Israeli Arab woman being arrested by Israeli police for social media posts she liked.

markodaly

Apparently, there are only 100,000 people still in Gaza City, the rest have moved south. The IDF has even allowed civilians to move south on local roads it controls.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346460#Comment_121346460

https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/

The beheaded babies thing has never been confirmed by the IDF.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346498#Comment_121346498

Will that mean that they will also recognize it's government? And condemn Palestine as a whole instead of picking and choosing Hamas for it's actions and Palestine for the consequences?

gotaf

Latest figures from health ministry in Gaza.

"At least 10,812 Palestinians, including 4,412 children, have been killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza since 7 October"

Crazy numbers.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346572#Comment_121346572

On the face of it sounds ridiculous.

But in the context of a war with Jihad it may be reasonable. Depends what the suspicions are around her and how she's treated after the initial arrest. If she's found to be harmless and is released promptly and uninjured this is no big deal (again, within the context of the world they're living in).

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346354#Comment_121346354

I don't use it lightly, and believe it to be so, given the words of Israeli Governmental and Military leadership.

Go start a thread on support for Christians, or march for them, if you think they are having genocide carried out on them?

Or are you only using any concerns of persecution against them to justify Israel's actions?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345929#Comment_121345929

Didn't mean to criticize (happens to me too)

Yes ,it is a good argument about PLO.

Not to say that secularism would not regain its(rightful ) place in the longer term as cultures as a whole (hopefully) come to grip with the awkward reality of living in the world as it is and not as we might like to imagine it.

A long path,but I would wager that secularism is the dog for the long road and that this is being shown below the surface as people get on with their lives.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346653#Comment_121346653

"We have in a few days in Gaza thousands and thousands of children killed, which means there is also something clearly wrong in the way military operations are being done."

Antonio Guterres, head of the UN

I assume he meant in a few weeks.

Something seriously wrong when you see American figures from their war on terror.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345665#Comment_121345665

When did that happen?

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/neo-nazis-far-right-extremists-committed-23-493-crimes-in-germany-last-year-report/2892765

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345797#Comment_121345797

National Socialism still exists, in Germany, well past 1945. You can't snuff out ideology with bombs.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345816#Comment_121345816

Supporter or card carrying member, makes no difference. He was incited by Bibi's messages for violence.

Rosahane

The shocking revelations that journalists from major news organisations accompanied the Hamas terrorists raised a lot of questions about impartiality and truth in reporting.

Photographers Without Borders: AP & Reuters Pictures of Hamas Atrocities Raise Ethical Questionshonestreporting.com

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346792#Comment_121346792

Really?

Where?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346820#Comment_121346820

You expressly said Lukid but was not a member.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346867#Comment_121346867

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/neo-nazis-far-right-extremists-committed-23-493-crimes-in-germany-last-year-report/2892765

....

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346874#Comment_121346874

Yes I did. Cesar Sayoc wasn't a member of the MAGA party either but we know him as a MAGA terrorist, don't we.

Rabin's assassin carried out the exact, express, and pantomimed desires of Benjamin Netanyahu: the swift death of Rabin.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346578#Comment_121346578

Wow, an invading force is allowing people to escape along roads in their own country while razing their homes to the ground and slaughtering their children. The IDF shouldn't be considered an army at all, more of an armed peace corps such is their kindness.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346566#Comment_121346566

rubbished:

"The assassination has been described as emblematic of a kulturkampf ("cultural struggle") between religious right-wing and secular left-wing forces within Israel.[5][4][56] Ilan Peleg of the Middle East Institute has described Rabin's assassination as "reflecting a deep cultural divide within Israel's body politic [...] intimately connected with the peace process"[57] which illustrates both increased polarization and political conflict in the country.[58]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340244#Comment_121340244

That's rich , an Irish person calling another nationality scumbags.

Trying to stick noses into all and everything pretending to be relevant. The flea on the elephants back springs to mind.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346578#Comment_121346578

How gracious to allow some of them live

Look over here. Isn't this pretty? And perfectly proportional, as all things should be.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346875#Comment_121346875

That is not National Socialism.