Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350501#Comment_121350501

It's very foolish to take at face value, propaganda from either side.

We can however rely on the horrific video evidence coming out of Gaza and on the testament of credible sources in humanitarian agencies.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind but that the IDF under instructions from the Israeli government are engaged in genocide and forcible displacement by violent means of a civilian population.

sock.rocker*

It's like there's a cognitive dissonance. People support the launching of the rockets into Gaza by Israel but choose to not believe Hamas when they say they landed.

mikeoc85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350342#Comment_121350342

That’s not Hamas that’s the Israeli army

sock.rocker*

I wonder what the world would be saying if Russia told Ukrainian citizens to flee to Western Ukraine to escape the war zone and then bombed churches in Western Ukraine.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350426#Comment_121350426

It’s funny how you use terms like, you need to wake up, you are asleep, you are dreaming.

The US has intervened in foreign countries either militarily or through full scale war, 92 times in less than 20 years, 2000 to 2019. That’s once every 2 and a half months!

US foreign policy has been a litany of failure. There is no way to sugar coat that. The US has been a major cause of instability this century, from invasions, regime change etc. Then when the sh1t hits the fan they abandon the sh1t shows they leave behind just like they will do in Ukraine.

Cluedo Monopoly

Israel have really pushed themselves into a corner. The whole world knows they have overreacted in terms of the disproportionate killing of civilians including over 4000 children. Even their staunch allies in the US are begging then to stop the massacres and let in much needed food, water and medical supplies.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350458#Comment_121350458

It’s hardly news.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350432#Comment_121350432

two things.

1. Historically the Health Ministry in gaza has provided accurate information.
2. Historically Brietbart lies.

So although we can't be sure about either, the gazan health ministry has been more trustworthy.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350345#Comment_121350345

The clue there is next year. A long way away.

This war is now. And the US president is Biden. I realise your desire to mention Trump whenever you can but this isn't about Trump.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350532#Comment_121350532

IDF spokesman was interviewed by RTE's Drivetime and didn't deny for a moment when it was put to him that many thousands of Gazan civilians had been killed - his line was to say that the killings were justified and necessary in order to bomb Hamas.

It's as if Israel supporters are denying to themselves just how brutal and hardline the actions are, even when the regime is openly admitting it.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350368#Comment_121350368

There is a belief among some Israelis that Bibi knew something was up but did not know the extent of it. He might have thought - as he has in the past- that whatever was going on he could contain it and use it to his advantage. He turned a blind eye to large cash payments from Qatar to Hamas. There was also a report that he ignored a warning from Egyptian intelligence that Hamas was planning something big. At worst he was criminally negligence or at best grossly incompetent. You will recall he set himself up as Mr Security and dominated Israeli politics on the back of it. He can't have it both ways- the buck stops him.

SafeSurfer

Visegrad 24 is often sourced here by pro bombing civilians in Gaza posters . It has been claimed it is a quality source of news. I can’t link to them here but their tweets today are disgusting and racist.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350611#Comment_121350611

I was reading that Netanyahu had previously assured the public that such an attack by Hamas was impossible, that Israel's defence and security was rock solid and that a large scale terrorist event was out of the question. This is one of the main reasons the Israeli public are so angry with him.

brickster69

Israel calling off the investigation into rapes carried out on the 7th.

https://twitter.com/KeithWoodsYT/status/1722625277547987382

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350646#Comment_121350646

Hamas aren't rapists, just murderers. Phew.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350634#Comment_121350634

They're not even trying to hide their bias and the fact they are a propaganda outlet. All they do is post pro-Israel stuff and seemingly go trawling the web looking for stories to show Palestinians in bad light. This would be bad enough, but as you say, many of the things they are now posting about Muslim people are openly racist and reprehensible. If they were operating out of Ireland or the UK, they would probably be shut down as a hate channel.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350659#Comment_121350659

People dismiss anything amnesty international say based on a flawed report they issued about Ukraine. So incorrectly reporting mass rapes should be classed as propaganda and anything the IDF says should be dismissed as such.

That's the same logic right?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350595#Comment_121350595

That was the first time I mentioned him on here, and it was entirely appropriate. I didn't even mention him by name but alluded to the fact that he is the GOP forerunner, which he is.

You've been running interference for him for years on this website. Outdide if his own thread, any time he's mentioned, you're straight in there trying to shut it down.

It's very odd.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350432#Comment_121350432

A bit of reading for you.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-death-toll-2666221271

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350574#Comment_121350574

So where is that authoritative stat. you quote from? It must include every time the US sold a country weapons or something, or perhaps publically sided with one group or other in their internal politics (an "intervention" of sorts I suppose).

I used terms like "you are asleep/dreaming" as regards the trajectory of the world as the US disengages + is consumed with internal problems and the power of likes of China or the various regional dictatorships and autocracies grows, because it is the most polite + benign explanation.

The other option is that you are looking foward to and desire the obvious outcomes ([even] more chaos and violence in the world) despite all the tears shed over civilians in Palestine here.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350752#Comment_121350752

What's GOP.

freebritney

Hospitals, mosques, schools, refugee camps, journalists and ambulances targeted with over 10000 dead, including over 4000 children. Over a million forcibly moved from their homes. 178 Palestinians killed in the West Bank by settlers and IDF.

I'm going to post this regularly until one of the shills here can give me ONE reason, just ONE, why children's painted plates would so trigger and offend people that they would contact a group of activist lawyers to have them removed.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/27/artwork-gaza-schoolchildren-removed-chelsea-and-westminster-hospital

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350458#Comment_121350458

Post a link suggesting it isn't true so.

Whenever you're ready.

It's way too late in to this conversation to be suggesting something immediately discounted because it's on Twitter.

We could probably post directly from news sites if they had people on the ground in Gaza but given the record number of journalists killed there in the last 4 weeks, they are understandably hesitant to put their staff there.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350767#Comment_121350767

The official wing of the MAGA lunatics.

Seriously, you've been around these conversations for years and don't know the acronym for one of the two main parties?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350780#Comment_121350780

We just say Republicans here.

Middle East is indifferent to the internal dramas of America.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350759#Comment_121350759

The US has been a superpower since about 1900. Super powers come and go. There was both war and peace before 1900 and there will be war and peace as the US declines. You do a bad job of showing a correlation between the US as a superpower and lack of wars.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350733#Comment_121350733

Both sides lie in wartime.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350812#Comment_121350812

The US has edit: been a "power" since then perhaps...only a superpower (with Soviets) since the end of WW2 and the sole superpower since collapse of USSR (with latter period now coming to an end as we enter this new multipolar world you and others are happy for). Oh war always existed - ah well that is okay so. On other hand maybe not so okay (!) as weapons humanity has today did not exist back in the 1900s.

I mostly made a prediction, so we have little data as yet. The best comparison period when we get down to looking at correlations (if people are around to do it) will be post Cold War to date, or perhaps end WW2 to date (the USs time as superpower or "hegemon") vs what is coming down the tracks.

(getting back to thread topic somewhat) I actually kind of think the unrestrained way Israel is acting in Gaza is another early fruit of how the world is changing (going "multipolar"). The US control over what they do here may not be quite as great as some think it is. Netanyahu certainly doesn't seem to be paying much attention at all to the Biden admin. + doesn't feel the need to.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346206#Comment_121346206

@markodaly Apologies for the delay.

Here is a list of well respected organisations that have studied the situation in Gaza and consider Israel an Occupying Power since 2005 (and before Oct 7)

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) 

UN General Assembly

UN Security Council 

UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk

International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)

United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory

European Union (EU)

African Union

International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor)

Amnesty International

Human Rights Watch

UN Relief Workers Agency

The Israeli High Court of Justice has itself emphasized that the state is nonetheless required under international humanitarian law to allow Gaza to receive “what is needed in order to provide the essential humanitarian needs of the civilian population” (Jaber Al-Bassiouni Ahmed 2008, para. 11).

Too many other international legal experts to list but let's focus on our own country - we have Ruth A FitzGerald SC, an expert in IHL. We also have this list of Irish academics who criticise "Israel’s regime of occupation"...

Gaza crisis: Hundreds of academics sign letter calling for Irish universities to suspend ties with Israeli institutions – The Irish Times

There are hundreds on that list above.

--------------

Who have you got to make your argument? I'll help you start the list.

1. Israel

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350790#Comment_121350790

'We'

Lol

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350432#Comment_121350432

All previous reports from conflicts have been within the margin of error in relation to UN, Red Crescent and other observers so no, I have no reason to question it. In fact, given the sheer scale of destruction I wouldn't be surprised to see that number go up with the amount of people under rubble.

Sure, you go ahead relying on organisations who use half truths, manipulate the truth or outright lie because that suits your worldview.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350659#Comment_121350659

The problem here, and I find this a particularly disgusting thing to do, is that the Israeli media/IDF took what was already a horrendous thing to happen and exaggerated and facilitated exaggerations because the people that were killed weren't killed in a horrific enough way.

Babies beheaded, not confirmed by any Israeli body yet still repeated by officials, including in the UN. Rapes and sexual assaults, probably true but nowhere near the extent. Babies in ovens and people burned alive, possibly but the IDF were using artillery, air strikes and tanks as part of their defence.

People were murdered, but their murders weren't gruesome enough.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350611#Comment_121350611

That may well be ,but I want to hear this story being told by Israelis (and ,if applicable refuted or filled out by Israelis)

I assumed Netanjahu would have fallen on his sword by now.

This has not happened and it is Israelis who must know why this has not happened.

Maybe someone has a link where Israelis are discussing this subject?(and not some echo chamber over there but a broad based discussion)

Or Israeli newspapers and opinion pieces....

freebritney

I'm sure that you have all heard about this shocking incident in Florida where a politician was talking about the Gaza/Israel issue in the State Senate and asked "How many more Jews must die?" in relation to the rocket attacks, to which a Republican senator Michelle Salzman shouted "ALL OF THEM".

Of course it was immediately condemned by the White House and senior politicians across the divide. It was debated across every media outlet and was headlines across the world highlighting the worrying rise in antisemitism.

Only joking of course, she only shouted "ALL OF THEM" in regards to Palestinians, not Jews.

https://www.newsweek.com/republican-calls-all-palestinians-die-viral-video-1842599#:~:text=A%20Florida%20state%20representative%2C%20identified,during%20a%20Florida%20Senate%20session.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350693#Comment_121350693

'So now Israel has named journalists as legitimate targets but seeing as they've killed 39 already thats hardly a surprise"

Funny, the article you linked to doesn't say that. At least you had an article to misrepresent this time. SO, nothing about the Congressmen with dual citizenship? Why is that?

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350342#Comment_121350342

The Israelis must think that the Hamas snipers must have a very bad aim . How come that it is only one soldier using the Palestinian for cover and for only 7 secs of the 18 secs shown. ?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350776#Comment_121350776

Not how it works; your proof, is some unverified Twitter feed. One can't prove a negative. Twitter is largely dismissed as a source of evidence here, see how pointless this is?

This thread (and so many others) abound in them, and as they say, "A lie gets around the world before the truth has its shoes on." Since I'm not on Twitter, I have no way to find refuting tweets, so I'll wait for some independent confirmation that goes beyond, 'sharing a tweet'.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350678#Comment_121350678

Yes, It is not a "quality source of news" - it has a severe slant to it.

Posted this before I think on different thread (Polish media report/investigation from 2022 on who is behind the account; links to (Polish) Law and Justice party etc., but I suppose could have been changes since then).

https://oko.press/visegrad24-anonomous-account-mystery-revealed

brickster69

Why does the US accuse Russia and China of genocide but not Israel ?

https://twitter.com/55fph/status/1722306831882592689

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351046#Comment_121351046

They're not doing much for their own credibility with this non stop pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian stuff. It reads more like a propaganda blog than a supposed news source - if they're that blatant and openly biased in their 'reporting', why would anyone believe anything on their page? I would hazard a guess even some of their right wing readers are looking at this with raised eyebrows.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350982#Comment_121350982

Within the 7 second rule, not a war crime. Dogs on the street know this one.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350932#Comment_121350932

Yeah I'm a strong believer in not attributing to malice what is more likely stupidity or negligence.

THE_SHEEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351087#Comment_121351087

Maybe because they ( US) are correct and right ?

Maybe because they ( US ) have not got an anti semitic streak running through them ?

Maybe because they ( US ) are not Irish ?

Maybe because they ( US ) don't make false equivalence arguments between the Palestinian / Israel conflict and other conflicts ? ( Irish reference again 🙄) .

Maybe because the US are not the UN .......?

Jimi H

Israeli soldier using a blindfolded man as a human shield

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzdyKFiO5Q0/?igshid=NHFwZG9rejUxYW4=

ollkiller

Just read on The Journal there of a strike at the Al-Shifa hospital. Hospital director Mohammad Abu Salmiya said the strike was at the compound's maternity ward. Currently shooting outside the hospital. If the strike on a maternity ward is true I have no words.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350646#Comment_121350646

What a misleading tweet. The article doesn't state that there is no evidence, but that the evidence wasn't collected because a priority was put on identifying victims. We all saw women bleeding with our own eyes. Witnesses have described rapes. They happened. Link to actual article which the person didn't include because it doesn't say what they claim it does

https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/

Grayson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKy3hAbSdxQ

I can't see how anyone can justify this. But I'm sure someone here will try to.

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350931#Comment_121350931

I don’t know what reality you live in, but that’s sick. In civilised countries they don’t film the dead as proof for the sickos, they have some respect for the relatives.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351388#Comment_121351388

You'd want some arm to throw a stone 70m.

(Also more wonderful journalism from Matt Frei and Channel 4)

Cluedo Monopoly

Palestinians officials say hospitals hit in air strikes (rte.ie)

Palestinian officials say Israeli air strikes hit Gaza hospitals

Israeli air strikes hit Gaza's biggest hospital, the Al Shifa, killing one person and wounding others sheltering there, Palestinian officials said, one of several hospitals reported struck as Israeli troops battled Hamas in the heart of the enclave.

Officials said other strikes had damaged parts of the Indonesian Hospital and reportedly set fire to the Rantissi paediatric and cancer hospital in the northern part of Gaza, where Israel says Hamas militants who attacked it last month are concentrated.

Israeli tanks, which have been advancing through northern Gaza for almost two weeks, have taken up positions around the Rantissi, Al-Quds and Nasser Children's hospitals, raising concern for patients, doctors and evacuees there, medical staff said.

"Israel is now launching a war on Gaza City hospitals," Mohammad Abu Selmeyah, director of Gaza's main Shifa hospital, told Reuters.

-------------------

International Law is clear on this.

Article 19 of the First Convention provides that medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. It goes on to provide that the responsible authorities shall ensure that those facilities are, so far as possible, situated where attacks against military objectives do not imperil their safety.