Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355924#Comment_121355924

Releasing the hostages is the quickest way to peace. It is a war crime to take and hold civilian hostages. Israel will not stop until that war crime is purged.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356136#Comment_121356136

But this is more whataboutery. Yes Tommy Robinson and his knuckle dragging brethren are bad but what about Saudi Arabia, they're worse. Why come up with 2 completely irrational and off the wall analogies. If you happened to be on a weekend break in London, a neighbouring country and one of the world's largest capital city wearing an Ireland rugby top or GAA polo shirt and accidentally bumped into any of that mob you'd get the kicking of a lifetime. Is that something that's normal? Would it be considered provocative?

If i decided to wear a pair off assless leather chaps and a string vest down the main street of a backward religious theocracy like Saudi Arabia then I'd expect the public flogging. When your comparing anything moral wise to Saudi Arabia, your generally clutching.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356213#Comment_121356213

Israel will respond with countless more war crimes you mean. Purged indeed.

I thought Israel weren't committing any war crimes. You come around?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356220#Comment_121356220

Thank you I agree, when you are comparing anything moral wise to Saudi Arabia, you are generally clutching.

When people are comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia's Palestinian allies and accusing Israel of war crimes and genocide, they are generally clutching.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356136#Comment_121356136

What did the people of Palestine do? There's over 5 million of them. A state is much easier to aggregate like you did with Saudi but even then that doesn't reflect all Saudis, so why the Palestinian people?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356236#Comment_121356236

Israel Are committing war crimes. They actually are. Every day it seems. Collective punishment, bombing hospitals, forced displacement etc etc. The war crimes have been itemised several times by legal experts and you refuse to accept it. Be honest.

Both sides have committed war crimes. You know this to be true but somehow cannot admit it.

And don't play the not an occupying power card again, that has been thoroughly debunked.

Do I think anyone in Israel will face charges for war crimes ever? Absolutely not! Not in a million years. You win there.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356266#Comment_121356266

Do you think that it is ok for people in Palestine to accept the ruling of a Hamas court that women cannot travel without the permission of their male guardians? If that was Ireland, we would have protests in the street because the people of Ireland would not accept it. In Palestine, there were no protests at that court ruling.

https://apnews.com/article/travel-middle-east-womens-rights-israel-gaza-strip-acc6bdb0383b43d5c13af594374ada88

I don't think people in Ireland truly realise how evil Hamas are and how much support that they have within Palestine. Remember, some of our own political parties have supported Hamas too.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356236#Comment_121356236

As i mentioned earlier, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Iran don't pretend to be beacons of democracy and civil rights like Israel does. Israel is arresting it's own citizens within 20 minutes of them posting such inflammatory remarks as "my heart bleeds for the Palestinians". Israel wants the benefits of being a first world nation while still acting like a police state (which is why it kept the back door open to Russia and flouted the sanctions).

I'd also agree on Hamas releasing the civilian hostages. They can then do a prisoner swap with the military prisoners for the 1100 Palestinians held without trial by Israel.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356289#Comment_121356289

On a scale of 1 to 10 for human rights, where Saudi Arabia is 10, and Ireland is 1, Israel is about 2.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356140#Comment_121356140

Nope. Never defended them, just the idea that October the 7th was the end of the ceasefire is bogus when the 4 or so weeks prior so Israel annex more land and than they had done so in the previous 40 years combined. There's no justification for them doing that. None whatsoever. They displaced hundreds of people who had lived and worked there for decades and whose families had gone back a lot further.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356280#Comment_121356280

Cool. Good job. How many additional brown kids can Israel murder because you found that wholly relevant article?

Should be good for another 1000? right?

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356291#Comment_121356291

...despite the legalised torture, the imprisonment without trial, the apartheid regime in the occupied territories, the assasinations abroad...?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356360#Comment_121356360

They can't come under the umbrella of "human rights" if you don't consider the victims to be humans

brickster69

Colombia to formally press war crime charges against Netanyahu at the ICC this week.

https://colombiareports.com/colombia-to-press-war-crime-charges-against-netanyahu/

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356291#Comment_121356291

Saudi ARabai is 155th on the Freedom index, israel 67th I think. Ireland is 6th.

The Freedom Index does not take into account what Israel has done to either Gaza or West Bank though. Even leaving Gaza aside, West Bank is essentially a police state, cameras absolutely everywhere, checkpoints everywhere.

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs recorded the following:

Key Facts

• In early 2023, OCHA documented 565 movement obstacles in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and excluding H2. These include 49 checkpoints constantly staffed by Israeli forces or private security companies, 139 occasionally staffed checkpoints, 304 roadblocks, earth-mounds and road gates, and 73 earth walls, road barriers and trenches.
• Additionally, 80 obstacles, including 28 constantly staffed checkpoints, segregate part of the Israeli-controlled area of Hebron (H2) from the remainder of the city; many checkpoints are fortified with metal detectors, surveillance cameras and face recognition technology, and with facilities for detention and interrogation.
• Combined, there are 645 physical obstacles, an increase of about 8% compared with the 593 obstacles recorded in the previous OCHA closure survey in January-February 2020.
• Specifically, the number of occasionally staffed checkpoints has increased by 35% and that of road gates by 8%. While these remain open most of the time, they can be closed at any moment. In 2022 there were 1,032 instances (or 293 days) where nonpermanent checkpoints were staffed across the West Bank.
• Over half of the obstacles (339 out of 645) have been assessed by OCHA to have a severe impact on Palestinians by preventing or restricting access and movement to main roads, urban centres, services, and agricultural areas.
• In 2022, Israeli forces also deployed an average of four ad hoc 'flying' checkpoints each week along West Bank roads.
• In addition, the 712 kilometre-long Israeli Barrier (65% of which is built) runs mostly inside the West Bank. Most Palestinian farmers with land isolated by the Barrier can access their groves through 69 gates; however, most of the time, the Israeli authorities keep these gates shut.
• Palestinians holding West Bank IDs require permits from the Israeli authorities to enter East Jerusalem through three designated checkpoints, except for men over 55 and women over 50.
• In 2022, 15% of permit applications by West Bank patients seeking care in East Jerusalem or Israeli health facilities and 20% of permit applications for their companions were not approved by the time of the scheduled appointment. Also in 2022, 93% of ambulance transfers to East Jerusalem were delayed due to the 'back-to-back' procedure, where patients are transferred from a Palestinian to an Israeli-licensed ambulance at checkpoints due to restrictions imposed by Israeli authorities.
• Access to 20% of the West Bank is prohibited by Israeli military order on the grounds that the area is designated as a 'firing zone' for military training, or as a border buffer zone.
• Palestinians' access to the about 10% of the West Bank lying within the municipal boundaries of Israeli settlements, is also prohibited by military order; many farmers can only reach their private land within or around settlements twice a year at most, subject to approval from Israeli authorities.

The Freedom index would be a damn sight lower if it bother taking their treatment of Palestinians into account

brickster69

Arab - Islam summit today reject Israels actions against Palstinians as self defense

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/arab-islamic-summit-rejects-justifying-gaza-war-as-israeli-self-defense/ar-AA1jLiCb?ocid=socialshare&cvid=f341b9d27118480b94bba53f48c23ef5&ei=19

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356406#Comment_121356406

Algeria, South Africa, Turkey also considering doing likewise.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356416#Comment_121356416

Israel doesn't care about the UN and never has.

Fun fact, during the second world war a Swedish diplomat negotiated the release of over 30k prisoners (including Jews) from German concentration camps.

After the war, he was appointed as the first UN mediator for the conflict between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations.

He was assassinated by Israel. One of the men that ordered his assassination later became PM of Israel.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356291#Comment_121356291

2 on the scale if your Israeli, 10 if you happen to be a Palestinian. How about my prisoner exchange idea? Your all for the hostages being released surely.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356501#Comment_121356501

He wasn't assassinated by Israel. Sadly he was assassinated by Stern gang goons.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356213#Comment_121356213

As you may well know Blanch, I very rarely agree with the Shinners....... but I heard earlier that MaryLou has called for Israel to be tried before the International Criminal Court. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1111/1415924-sf-ardfheis/

And I and I dare say a great many Irish people would agree with her. At least she has the balls to call it for what it is.

Better start reading the room more closely?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356041#Comment_121356041

Then, what the IDF has done is mass murder so?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356140#Comment_121356140

Is everything IDF is doing justified?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356532#Comment_121356532

Similar to how Russia did not have anything at all to do with the killing all those Ukrainians that were murdered by the Wagner group..................as I mentioned, it just so happened that the person who ordered the murder was to later become PM of Israel..........one of your "goons" at the top of their State.

Your zionist buddies also assassinated a member of Dublin's Guinness family a few years earlier. Shot him to bits at his residence in Cairo. He was actually a British minister of state at the time.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356213#Comment_121356213

Will Israel release its civilian hostages also?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356280#Comment_121356280

Bibi isn’t mass murdering children for Women’s Rights.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356550#Comment_121356550

Stop with all those facts, the antisemite accusations will be coming soon..

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356577#Comment_121356577

It's mad though to think that you could be someone who managed to save many jews from almost certain death during the second world war, then be appointed to mediate to try to find a peaceful solution to the problem caused by trying to grant them a homeland where they think their sky fairy said they can live, and the Israelis just decide to murder you because maybe they feel you might be a bit too fair on the other side.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356588#Comment_121356588

I pointed out that the current Home Secretary in the UK has a husband who lived in Israel and "is a proud Zionist and has close family serving in the IDF". I mentioned that her demonisation of the Pro-Palestine marches and clear incitement would in any other world be considered bias. I was told she was a cnut most of the time and I only pointed out the glaring conflict of interest because he was Jewish.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356280#Comment_121356280

You're not stereotyping, now, are you? We are all aware of the type of control Hamas have so protesting against them isn't quite the same as here.

What exactly are you suggesting? That all Palestinians are inherently draconian or evil or something?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355950#Comment_121355950

They won't be overly bothered. I posted earlier about them posting articles and headlines that the casual observer glancing at it would come away thinking that any trouble was associated with the Free Palestine march.

The standard posted an image of the Ceasefire march with text referring to trouble at the Cenotaph. They didn't clarify the two things weren't connected.

The Daily Mail posted a headline that said, Trouble with police as people descend on capital for marches for Palestine.

Rishi Sunak's press release this evening did the same thing, equated the troublesome elements associated with both marches as being comparable even though the Far right march was where the trouble occurred.

They're old hats at this, they're not going to let little things like objectivity impact the narrative they've already written.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356291#Comment_121356291

It's a 2 in relation to it's own Jewish citizens. (They don't permit same sex marriages within the country)

It's probably an 8 or 9 in relation to how it treats Palestinians or Arabs living in Israel.

Or were you discounting these elements in your determination?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356696#Comment_121356696

I sense though that they, the Tories and Israel supporters are losing the PR battle (and know full well they are losing it). Very little active support for Israel out there, apart from the usual right wing crank commentators, and indications that public sympathy is very largely with the Palestinians. It's rumoured that even many Tory MPs are unhappy with Sunak and Braverman's pro-Israel posturing.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356879#Comment_121356879

I'm much more cynical I'm afraid.

This is almost exactly the same as things were in 2003 with respect to the War on Terror. I thought then that surely governments would react to what the sentiment of the public clearly was but it had little to no impact. I was sure in the 2004 election in the US that George Bush would be beaten but he was returned. This Tory government is done for but we've seen Starmer pretty much in lock step with Sunak in terms of the conflict in Gaza. There's not going to be any massive change there whenever Labour come to power.

Macron has called for a ceasefire today, that's significant, he is quite influential still on the diplomatic stage but I fear that the US actually wants the conflict to continue given Biden's immediate dismissal of any hope of a ceasefire yesterday. Nethanyahu has already come out to say that Macron is making a moral mistake in calling for a ceasefire. Quite a provocative statement in itself.

circadian

I get the feeling that when Biden says that there all be no ceasefire, it's not because the US administration wants one, it's because the Israeli government doesn't give two ****. He arrived out there and came away with nothing in terms of deescalation the conflict, himself and Blinken have been told to take a long walk off a short plank.

Arms being sent to Ukraine are subject to restrictions on use, can't invade Russia etc. None of these are in place with Israel and the deals are long standing. I wonder if the recent announcement of more supplies is related to prior agreements rather than genuine sentiment, although there are plenty of war hawks and people lobbied in the US to throw their weight behind it.

Much like labour in the UK this conflict is going to cause a massive rift in the Democratic party and on the eve of an election. They'll be handing it to Trump or whatever troglodyte gets the nomination and that could continue to prolong the war.

Anyone going against the Israeli line and calling for diplomacy is on the receiving end of some very undiplomatic language.

They simply dont give a **** what anyone thinks and clearly nobody wants to consider sanctions or embargoes. What is happening elsewhere is just as bad but there's less sway with western nations as they aren't directly funding the ethnic cleansing in Sudan, war in Yemen, genocide of Uygur and all the other atrocities occurring.

I honestly do believe this could be the unravelling of bodies like the UN and it certainly paints the west in a bad light, China is waiting in the wing to offer solutions where the supposedly moral west doesn't and that's terrifying.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356007#Comment_121356007

Hezbollah and Lebanon military are completely different things.

Lebanon as a state and armed forces has zero interest in war with Israel.

Hezbollah is an army within a state. But it's not really equipped for conventional war, it's a massive paramilitary force. They have a lot of rockets but they don't have an air force, tank force, etc.

Even if it did decide to get involved in the war - which I doubt given they would take an incredible pounding - Hezbollah getting involved wouldn't mean Lebanon as a state was involved nor would the Lebanese armed forces get involved.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356054#Comment_121356054

I mean I wouldn't personally wear an Irish jersey to a Tommy Robinson demonstration because that's an invitation to trouble. It's also common sense.

But wearing a jersey is a fashion choice, or a political choice if I chose to wear it to such a rally. Being gay, lesbian, trans, whatever, is neither.

Being openly LGBT, even in the most subtle sense, in Palestine (and most muslim countries) is not really possible.

McFly85

I find the repeated argument about Palestinian/muslim values compared to ours to just be an obvious attempt to say they’re different to us, so what’s happening to them isn’t as horrible as what happens to Israel, who are allegedly similar to us.

I don’t agree with any of that really and it has nothing to do with the current conflict.

I don’t agree with Muslim principles on a lot of things but that doesn’t mean that they’re not people.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357126#Comment_121357126

It's irrelevant crap to deflect from the murder of civilians.

It keeps getting repeated on here about gay rights in Gaza as if that somehow justifies blowing the sh1te out of an apartment block of Palestinian families. The same posters don't seem quite as animated by the fact that gay people cannot legally get married in Israel.

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356266#Comment_121356266

They voted for Hamas.

They harbour terrorists like 'The Guest', so called as he stays at a different Palestinian home each night

They indoctrinate children into terrorism. A Palestinian school book leaked online shows how they teach young children to become "heros" like Dalal Mughrabi (I don't remember covering her on the Irish syllabus. Yet).

They are more anti-Semitic than the Nazis and more homophobic than Putin

They build terror cells under their own hospitals and use women and children as (very good politically, albeit not-at-all kinetically) effective human shields.

They support Hamas firing thousands of (some home made) rockets at Israel, knowing that some will fall short and land on Palestinians e.g. that hospital.

They help build thousands of tunnels for rockets, launching attacks and holding weapons and hostages. They have spent significant portions of their GDP on the tunnels alone, instead of building civilian infrastructure.

They do not seem to want to live in peace for long. Even the other Arab states do not take them in.

They live in the past, not just their Dark Ages views on women and LGBT people, but they literally live in the past, and do not seem to accept the reality of the Israeli state.

They support Hamas, who want to kill all the Jews, and others once that is done.

When Shani Louk, the 22 year old conscientious peace protestor was attacked at the music festival and murdered and seemingly raped by Hamas, they stripped her body naked and paraded her through the streets of Gaza on a pickup truck, and the Palestinian people cheered. Watch the video if you can face the truth, it's not just Hamas in the truck, it is all the people in the streets CELEBRATING! Celebrating like they won the world cup.They usually seem so angry in Gaza, so this is what they celebrate: the beautiful, broken, defiled, naked body of a dying young girl who is being gruesomely violated live online for the whole world to see, so they can show their work to her mother and family.

Still think Gaza is like Northern Ireland?

Still think it's a good idea to be on the same side as THAT!?

Have you ever been wrong before? It's not too late yet.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357179#Comment_121357179

They didnt all vote for Hamas.

And the babies and children that cant vote, certainly didnt.

Nobody is denying that terrible things have been done by Hamas.

But Hamas isnt all of Palestine.

I think thats broadly the external observers view.

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357069#Comment_121357069

Totally agree with that analysis. The Dem split over supporting Palestine could potentially split their vote and Trump could win by default. Also unimaginable before the war.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357179#Comment_121357179

Babies don't do any of these things.

4000+ children destroyed by IDF weaponry.

There's no current evidence there's anything under these hospitals.

So much othering in one post, it would make Hannity blush.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Nh5IGMo8g

I don't know why people bring up homophobia like Bibi is mass murdering journalists, women and children for women and gay rights, etc.

Bibi and other Israeli leaders don't even hide their genocidal agenda in their rhetoric anymore. Even world-renowned Israeli Holocaust Genocide experts have alerted as much.

Bibi held a mock funeral for Rabin. Swears he had nothing to do with the assassination. Just celebrated it. Like he fixed the world cup.

What is "the reality of the Israeli state?" That it's top-heavy with corrupt right-wing nationalists with outwardly genocidal aims?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357188#Comment_121357188

Trump was always likley to win the election.

board silly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356162#Comment_121356162

one who's been told to eliminate all palestinians.

let's not fool ourselves here. what's currently happening is genocide.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357186#Comment_121357186

I don't think anyone is saying everyone in Gaza voted for Hamas.

But polling has shown continued strong support for Hamas in Gaza.

They haven't held elections in the West Bank because it would likely result in Hamas taking power.

It is what it is. But pretending that Hamas is nothing whatsoever to do with the civilian populace of Gaza/Palestine is disingenuous.

sock.rocker*

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

In Israel, there’s a lot of support for settlements, and this is why there have been right-wing governments for so many years. The world, especially the United States, thinks there is an option for a Palestinian state, and, if we continue to build communities, then we block the option for a Palestinian state. We want to close the option for a Palestinian state, and the world wants to leave the option open. It’s a very simple thing to understand.

..

Where should the Palestinians in Gaza go?

To Sinai, to Egypt, to Turkey.

They’re not Egyptian or Turkish, though. Why would they go to Turkey?

O.K. The Ukrainians are not French, but when the war started they went to many countries.

Their country was being bombed, and so many of them fled west.

And Gazan people are dying to go to other places.

I think Ukrainians wanted to go to Europe because they didn’t want to get bombed.

And the Gazan people want to get bombed by us?

Maybe one option, rather than bombing them, would be to help try and develop a society for them in Gaza, right?

O.K., I wish you luck. Go ahead. Go for it.

..

You said, "Settlement is the way to return to Zion”?

Yes. It’s the end of the dispersion and the beginning of the revival of the Jewish nation in this homeland.

What are the borders of that Jewish nation?

The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest. [This would include the territory of multiple Middle Eastern countries as well as the territory that Israel controls today.]

..

We saw some horrible images on October 7th of what happened to Israeli children, and now we see some horrible images in Gaza of what is happening to Palestinian children. When you see Palestinian children dying, what’s your emotional reaction as a human being?

I go by a very basic human law of nature. My children are prior to the children of the enemy, period. They are first. My children are first.

We are talking about children. I don’t know if the law of nature is what we need to be looking at here.

Yeah. I say my children are first.

..

The whole interview is nuts. And it isn't some loon. The fact 600,000 Israelis have settled in the West Bank, and this is somehow socially acceptable, says a lot about Israel as a population and their views.

It is unconscionable that any Western nation is supporting a country that is settling an already populated area. They condemn it a few months ago but now send billions for arms while blocking ceasefires for humanitarian aid.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357213#Comment_121357213

Pretending Hamas is the totality of Gaza Populace is also disingenuous.

The longer this goes on, the more the globe turns against Israel.

I am not saying that is right, but I do see that happening.

The average person, with no skin in the game, now sees Israel as the aggressor.

Was that Hamas' strategy from the start?

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354661#Comment_121354661

Though it may initially appear so, the prohibition is not absolute.

See the Red Cross' explanation.

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says

It may be worth observing that you actually quoted Art 18 (despite citing 19), Protection of Hospitals.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-18?activeTab=undefined

The irony is that Article 19 is both important and relevant. It is entitled "Discontinuence of protection of hospitals".

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19?activeTab=undefined

It may also be worth observing the difference between targeting the hospital itself and targeting a miltary objective sufficiently close to the hospital that the hospital suffers damage. See the Commentaries on the Convention pages for the two articles in question.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357179#Comment_121357179

40% are children.