Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Markus Antonius

-Hamas are hiding in hospitals

-Hamas are using Palestinians as shields

-Hamas are preventing civilians moving south

-Hamas are stopping Israel from fueling Gazan hospital generators

What is it about Israel and their penchant for making outrageous claims without so much as a shred of evidence? And what is is about western media outlets and their penchant for believing every word the Israelis say?

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364833#Comment_121364833

Securing the hostages is not the goal.

Exterminating hamas is the goal. And it will happen.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364840#Comment_121364840

Securing the hostages is not the goal.

Do you know something the IDF spokespeople don't?

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364844#Comment_121364844

Now the IDF are telling the truth. In the next statement youll accuse them of lying .

You can't just flip flop your statements depending on who you are replying to.

Hamas are finished.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364856#Comment_121364856

So you are accusing the IDF of being mendacious liars then?

They are either liars or they are still interested in the release of the hostages. Which is it?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364532#Comment_121364532

Why shouldn't Ireland grant 500k Ukrainians citizenship? Surely the failure to do so much shows that any support Ireland shows towards the cause is not real?

Isn't that your logic - no? At least when it comes to Palestinians and the surrounding "Arab" countries? You make the point that the Arab countries say they support Palestinians but they won't support your preferred solution of taking all the Palestinians in to leave Israel free to "cleanse" the land? You imply that that somehow vitiates the Arab support or that they are hypocrites.

But you also claim to support Ukraine. One "solution" there would also be for the EU to take in all the Ukrainians so that Russia could keep the land and then the war would be over. 500k would be Ireland's share on a pro-rata basis. But you don't support that "solution" for some reason. Does that similarly make you a hypocrite, or does it mean that your claimed support of Ukraine is fake? Or is is somehow different for magical unexplained reasons?

Perhaps you might even conclude that the other Arab countries' refusal to accept all the Palestinians isn't a simple as you first thought?

rogber

This thread has gone from bad to worse, nothing but insults and bickering. If this is what Irish people are like on the issue, what hope Arabs and Israelis ever working it out?

Overheal

State Dept press briefing on hospital situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tCJHoZ-y6E

It's a good show, lot of heated back and forth with the journalists.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364620#Comment_121364620

Correct. The poster had repeated that similar stance about why wouldn't the other Arab countries just take the Palestinians in if they actually supported them. With the implication that because they wouldn't take them in, their support wasn't real and that they didn't like those savages anyway.

So I asked the poster if he supported the Ukrainian cause and if Ireland should support it too. He agreed. So I wanted to find out if the same logic applied regarding refusal to take them in here as a group permanently. 500k would be our share pro-rated across all the EU countries.

Overheal

Reuters mapped the protests worldwide:

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/MAPS/movajdladpa/#protests-sweep-around-the-globe-as-israels-war-in-gaza-grinds-on

Cluedo Monopoly

Seems proportional to me

Gaza death toll reaches 11,240, territory's govt says (rte.ie)

The death toll in Gaza has risen to 11,240, according to the media office of the territory's government.

4,630 children

3,130 women.

Cluedo Monopoly

Protection of civilians

The principle of distinction, that is to say, the obligation of warring parties to distinguish between combatants and civilians, is an important principle of IHL. Additional Protocol II provides that the parties to a conflict “shall at all times distinguish between the civil population and combatants and between civil objectives and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives”.

Article 57(2) of Additional Protocol I obliges parties to take precautions in their attacks to avoid or minimise incidental civilian losses. These rules apply by way of customary international law to non-international conflicts. The standard applicable is “common sense and good faith”.

Ruth FitzGerald SC: International humanitarian law in the conflict between Israel and Hamas | Irish Legal News

Proportionality

The second important principle of IHL is that of proportionality. Article 51(5)(b) of Additional Protocol I prohibits attacks that violate the rule of proportionality: that is to say, is not permissible to attack, even when there is a clear military target if it “may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.”. The principle which, although not explicitly referenced in Additional Protocol II has attained the status of customary international law, limits the damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effect of the military action not to be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364638#Comment_121364638

Are you saying The Guardian are Trots?

Because either Corbyn is a Trot or The Guardian are Trots...

Both cannot be true.

Starting for now, start using words you know the meaning of.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1723775652946477249

Strong words.

Cluedo Monopoly

Chief Red Cross surgeon. I have heard him talking a few times. He always sounds exhausted but he also cant seem to comprehend the pain and suffering he is seeing.

https://twitter.com/ICRC/status/1723633623541194853

Overheal

John Oliver essentially summarizes the past 641 pages in 32 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8

humberklog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364887#Comment_121364887

It's awful. I try come on here to see verified news (occasionally the Ukrainian thread is good for that).

But here it's mostly-- "so you think it's OK to kill babies?! Yes or no answers only!!"

Rinse and repeat... all day long from a handful of posters.

Mullaghteelin

I'm a little bemused by the narrative that Ukraine and Ireland were somehow neighbours with close ties. This narrative has been "invented" to some extent, to justify our maximum unqualified support.

Ireland taking on Ukrainians would be like expecting Morocco to take in Palestinians in large numbers. Good in theory, but doesn't make much sense when you properly look at a map.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365091#Comment_121365091

The media office of the territory’s government? Hamas scumbags.

No ceasefire until Hamas surrender and release all hostages.

As for a two state solution- not this century- we’ll have to wait until the savages come out of the dark ages.

JP Liz V1

How is little Emily Hands father now in Ireland doing press media etc., I thought no one could get out from over there

I hope she and the others are released

Beasty

Iscreamkone threadbanned

Danzy

Hamas Shura Council had a drop in visit from the Golani Brigade.

Real feel of the fall of the Reichstag about it.

Gallant tonight said that organized Hamas resistance has collapsed in northern Gaza. Which ties in with what we are seeing from the Gazan population now being able to move south to safety and Hamas being taken out when they try stop it.

Lot of cleaning up to do in Gaza, across the middle East and in Europe of Hamas operatives and aides but the operation in Gaza is progressing better than expected and the Hamas yoke might be lifted off their neck sooner than we all hope for.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365385#Comment_121365385

There is no limitation from flights out of Israel.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365097#Comment_121365097

The most straightforward summation I've seen of that principle of proportionality is to ask if the attack would be carried out against the target if the civilians present were from the attackers own country/people. If the attacker would consider the suffering of their own civilians to be "excessive" for the military gain, and would pause and find a different way to achieve their goal to avoid killing their own civilians, then they must do so when the civilian's are from a different, or even hostile country/people.

It's a fairly reasonable question which is realistic enough to accept that a military action can justifiably be taken even with full knowledge some civilians will be impacted. And even so, Israel fails it.

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gma98QwZdZo

..

Danzy

https://twitter.com/JillKerby/status/1723992372277600638

Solidarity, loike.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365505#Comment_121365505

Piers is very arrogant but the ego of Corbyn to go on. Knowing full well his "challenging" views on Jews would be touched on and he still fucied up.

What an absolute fash toerag moron.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365516#Comment_121365516

Talking about proportionality. Over 13,000 Palestinians - more than 3,000 children - have died in the past 4 weeks at the hands of the IDF. And you're irate about some van with a damaged windscreen in a country thousands of miles away?

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365520#Comment_121365520

It gave me these vibes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365520#Comment_121365520

corbyn has no challenging views on jews, in fact he did have quite a jewish following.

only the small but very vocal far right element of the british jewish community had an issue with him because he spoke the truth.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365548#Comment_121365548

Corbyn was a disaster for the Labour Party for different reasons.

I am sure there was anti semitism in his milieu as imo anti semitism exists in all milieus.

As such it may have been used as a stick to beat him with .

His dogmatic approach to things may have made him an easy target.

I should have sympathy for him but I really dislike him for how he messed up the Labour Party (even there I seem to recall the opening was more or less gifted to him .)

Overheal

Much balanced reporting by PBS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoybYvBf_o

Segments timestamped.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365516#Comment_121365516

As is so often the case with this kind of misdirection propaganda, this is totally false and has been quite easily debunked but that hasn’t stopped it being shared widely.

That truck was vandalised months ago, it has nothing to do with who the owners were, and there are photos of it abandoned there dating back well before this conflict. It takes about 5 seconds of research to confirm this.

There is no evidence I could find of any list of Jewish companies that this coffee chain appeared on either, outside of one article in a right wing newspaper that makes this claim without specifying a source.

I really struggle to understand the sort of distorted world view that leads someone to be more concerned about imaginary petty vandalism than they are about thousands of actual real children being murdered.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365516#Comment_121365516

That woman should point to antisemitist attacks in Ireland if she wants to say Irish people are happy about it. All I see is a Canadian pointing at Canadians and bringing in Ireland for some reason.

Like half the posters here who think there are Hamas supporters everywhere, she should deal with reality instead and see that empathy for a population does not mean support for its leader's actions, and criticism of a government's actions does not mean criticism of its people.

We've been through this a million times but people purposefully flush their self-respect down the toilet and continue to pretend there is antisemitism and Hamas support everywhere.

Criticism of civilian deaths in wars such as Iraq only brought out accusation of supporting Al Qaeda from the most bottom of the barrel flagtotin' inbred hillbilly fukheads but now it's somehow acceptable to do the same thing with Israel.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365583#Comment_121365583

Well, to clarify there's instances of it everywhere, but it is far far from everything and everyone critical of Israel.

There's IRL trolls in the UK (PBS reporting above, 'tensions rise in UK') that sow division, those are the pro Hamas types, trolls dancing for violence and reactions on tiktok or whatever video platform.

Sir_Name

Facing State Dept dissent over Gaza, Blinken tells staff: We're listening | Reuters

More internal calls for ceasefire within the US.

Israel says it raised $8 billion of debt since start of war with Hamas | Reuters

Secondly, Israel will have to hope for a short rather than long war as it debt increases and ccy devalues.

brickster69

IDF found a basement flat under a hospital, complete with a toilet, chairs and small kitchen.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/1724164040304234555

brickster69

More footage

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724169252054188276

blackcard

I certainly don't believe Hamas statements or IDF spokesmen. I don't believe the politicians involved. I don't believe a lot of the videos releases nor some of the UN people.

Who I do trust in mostly are Channel 4, the BBC, Reuters, Sky News, Doctors without borders. Obviously if any of these quote an IDF or Hamas spokesmen, it is to be taken with a graIn of salt

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364312#Comment_121364312

"effectively hostages"????? Now who is engaged in a false propaganda exercise?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364575#Comment_121364575

Not the same thing as calling for the unconditional release of the hostages. IF you are calling for a hostage swap, you are effectively condoning the Hamas war crimes.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365771#Comment_121365771

And zero footage of tunnels or command bunkers. I was expecting to see a hidden tunnel entrance a block away and they would walk through and appear in a bunker under the hospital or a concealed entrance etc...

People pointing out in the comments, the hostage watchlist is actually a calendar with days of the week.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365834#Comment_121365834

Bit of a stretch to say that supporting a swap means you condone whatever actions were taken up to that point. Is paying money for a hostage also condoning their capture?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365839#Comment_121365839

One is a war crime, one is not.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364818#Comment_121364818

How can they do that while the political leaders who fund the military wing remain untouched in Qatar? Leaving that aside, as Yitzshak Rabin realised, you can't defeat an ideology through purely military means. Hamas will be severely weakened, but they will,or some offshoot of them , rise again

Do you really believe in the absent of a political solution Israel will have complete security after the war ends for years to come? If you are truly pro "securing the region " you should be pushing for the end of Bibi alongside Hamas, and you should be hoping moderates on both sides take over, If not the region will never be truly secure and there will be another war at some stage along the line.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365577#Comment_121365577

When you are deeply wedded to an ideology you tend to double down and as a consequence will defend things you really shouldn't. This is why some people can identify a monster on one side, but defend one whose views align with their own. Also to justify heinous crimes its easier if you view the other as lesser people whose lives don't hold the same value. This is something Hamas and the far right racists in Israel have in common.

blackcard

This is what I believe

* The Hamas attack on 7/10 was a horrendous attack.

* Hamas have headquarters in the vicinity of some hospitals

*The IDF are carrying out certain indiscriminate attacks resulting in many civilian deaths.

* There are serious humanitarian issues associated with people having to evacuate their homes as a result of Israeli actions

* Hamas should release their hostages

* From a situation in 1917 where the population was 90% Arabic, the Palestinians have been screwed over

* The Jews have been one of the most discriminated races in history

* Jewish settlements in the West Bank are totally illegal.

A 2 state solution is the only option for a peaceful solution

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1114/1416347-gaza-israel-hamas/

I am still struggling to understand what is preventing Israeli tanks from taking over the hospital. Hamas keep telling us that there are no soldiers, there is no military complex, there is no military in the hospital, but somebody is firing on the Israelis and preventing them from taking over the hospital.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366170#Comment_121366170

Maybe they wont take it over because then they would have to show the world that great big command centre that's underneath it.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366170#Comment_121366170

I am struggling to understand why they are using snipers to shoot people inside the hospital including a paraplegic man in a hospital bed