Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Overheal

180 bodies now inside the hospitals makeshift mass grave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_zE4rUOUGA

And the IDF has a couple rusty rifles to show for it.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369792#Comment_121369792

The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) announced that they had entered the hospital.

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724579353193754958

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369757#Comment_121369757

The people in there are dying because Israel cut off fuel, water, electricity and medicine and bombed many of those who are now patients.

gotaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369799#Comment_121369799

You have no idea what the reality of the situation is though.

KilOit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369835#Comment_121369835

It has been reported that Hamas will not accept fuel handouts from Israel

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369665#Comment_121369665

Attacking any building or vehicle or in fact anything with the Red Cross / Red Crescent on it is a war crime, regardless of the circumstances, as far as I'm concerned.

gotaf

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1724550386793480671

Relief for them

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369782#Comment_121369782

It didn’t stop the IRA going into hospitals. People have selective memories it seems.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369843#Comment_121369843

It has been “reported”.

Exactly.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369843#Comment_121369843

It has been reported that dead Palestinian children are dolls.

sock.rocker*

Never has Southpark been more relevant.. For both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd0p96miSK8

No, we haven't actually seen it Tom. We're just reporting it.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369549#Comment_121369549

People are fcuking delusional if they think what is happening now is leading to the end of Hamas.

Israel is creating generations of Palestinians who will hate them passionately.

Look at the UK this past weekend, EDF members who feel they're losing their country (they aren't) took to the streets looking for trouble chanting about their nationalism. US conservative groups marched in Charlottesville not so long ago chanting that they would not be replaced. The rallying cry of French, German, Italian nationalists is similarly railing at the perception that they are in some way losing their country. Hell, we even had cos-play nazi's come out in Ireland last week trying to paint the same picture.

But for some reason, all these groups are on Israel's side as it butchers Palestinians and produces more fake news than we've seen since comical Ali.

The path to killing Hamas is mainly convincing the Palestinian people that there is no need for a resistance group. Israel is going full speed in the opposite direction.

sock.rocker*

There is no desire to kill off Hamas in the same way that there is no desire for Palestine Authority to rule both Gaza and the West Bank. I'd even argue that the settlements in the West Bank are in the end designed to get Palestinians there to vote in Hamas.

Netanyahu has legitimised Hamas rule over the last decade and has been reported to have said that keeping them in Gaza is important to stop Palestine Authority ruling both areas.

If you are overtly settling an area illegally, even though you are being condemned by the international community up until a few months ago, then your goal is obviously a complete take over of that area. This is possible with Hamas, not with Palestine Authority.

Of course there is a possibility that the likes of unkel will never be satisfied that Hamas have been killed so the killing must continue. You can't prove a negative after all.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369929#Comment_121369929

Why in your view would it be possible for a complete Israeli take over of the(West Bank?) area with Hamas and not the PA?

unkel

@Tell me how - "The path to killing Hamas is mainly convincing the Palestinian people that there is no need for a resistance group. Israel is going full speed in the opposite direction."

I can't say I agree. Once Hamas is removed, the international community (read: mostly the USA) will force a peace in the region, based on two states with proper self government by the Palestinians. Forcing Israel to remove westbank settlements, etc. Lots of international aid to rebuild Gaza (or wherever all parties agree the Gazans will live) and hopefully an Arab guarantor of no more violence coming from Gazans

It's doable. Gazans will have a better life than they ever had under their chosen leadership of Hamas. The aggressors Germany and Japan were defeated in WW2 with millions of civilian casualties (and mass civilians targeted as such with no military target in sight - war crimes we call those these days) and within 10-15 years both were peaceful, very wealthy nations and they stayed that way

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369937#Comment_121369937

"I can't say I agree. Once Hamas is removed, the international community (read: mostly the USA) will force a peace in the region, based on two states with proper self government by the Palestinians. Forcing Israel to remove westbank settlements, etc. "

How confident are you in such an outcome?

My take was that ,once Hamas was removed Israel would have a freeish hand in whatever arrangements it wanted in the area.

Am I too naive?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369929#Comment_121369929

Agreed. Hamas are a perfect bogeyman for Nethanyahu and his ilk to steal more Palestinian land.

Am very disappointed as to why so much of the western world is facilitating him to do this. All this is doing is disturbing the region and inflaming anti-western sentiment within the Arabic community.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369935#Comment_121369935

The logic would be to defeat Hamas and to keep the settlements safe, the area would have to be fully controlled by Israel, as is happening in Gaza. It's a country's wet dream for the land it wants to annex to be controlled by an internationally hated terrorist group.

How do you get Hamas into power in the West Bank? By proving to the people there that Palestinian Authority didn't stop 600,000 Israelis from stealing the land and settling there. Appeals to the past and what was there thousands of years ago does not help the people being killed and displaced there today and it won't stop them from being radicalised.

Israel is taking constant action to antagonise Palestinians and create this threat.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369937#Comment_121369937

Israel is not looking to remove Hamas, they are looking to remove Palestinians from Gaza and are using Hamas as justification for this.

That's literally what they are saying.

“Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear,” the Likud Party member wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter. Link

Israel is annihilating Palestinian civilians in the Gaza ghetto, openly stating that the “emphasis is on damage, not accuracy.” Over 1,100 children, women, and men have already been massacred under Israel’s unrelenting bombing. Link

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, says the “voluntary migration” of Palestinians in Gaza is the “right humanitarian solution” for the besieged enclave and for the region, a stance Palestinian officials liken to support of “ethnic cleansing”. Link

Israeli troops raise flag 2 miles into Gaza for the first time in 18 years: Link

sock.rocker*

You can even see people here supporting the notion of the rest of the world taking in all Gazans in order to keep Israel safe. 40 countries * 50,000 people.

As if they're cattle.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369950#Comment_121369950

Exactly, and these are the same people who are vehemently outraged at the idea of losing anything about their homeland that they perceive to be their God given right to maintain. And are on forums and discussion Boards all over the place calling for an end to countries taking refugees.

Yeah, Palestinians, pack your sh!t up, you're moving.

To where?

I don't care.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369951#Comment_121369951

It's just so intensely obvious they don't see them as people. How else can you try to justify the bombings of hundreds of people to kill one Hamas commander. It's like trying to justify My Lai because it might have killed one commander.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369665#Comment_121369665

I suspect it was not your intent to do a serious assessment, but to answer the question, the standard rules on proportionality apply.

There is nothing in the laws about knowledge of the hospital occupants. It is the actions of the combatants which affect the protected status of the facility, they need not notify nor obtain the permission of the hospital. The Conventions are very open about the responsibilities of the other side as well as the one side.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369947#Comment_121369947

Not sure I follow too well.

You are saying that once Israel can get Hamas into power in the West Bank ,that would facilitate a complete Israeli take over of the West Bank?

How?

They would defeat Hamas there too?

Or Hamas would be complicit in their overall control of the West Bank?

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369959#Comment_121369959

Israel receives international condemnation for killing and settling in the West Bank but they receive international support for bombing refugee camps and hospitals in Gaza. Yes, they would prefer for Hamas to be in control in the West Bank.

The polls and lack of trust in Netanyahu in Israel would strongly suggest that Israelis feel this is the sort of thinking being used at the top end of this right-wing government.

Jimi H

Report that Israel built the bunkers and tunnels under the hospital in 1983. Seems this article is from 2014 although I’m unsure of the date

http://www.thetower.org/0810-israelis-know-hamas-leaders-hiding-in-shifa-hospital-because-they-built-the-bunkers/

sock.rocker*

I cannot see any other logical explanation for the views of Israel when its leadership and supporters believe that a religion, not a people, owns a land for all of eternity, and thousands of years later, people of that religion are right and correct to move from their homelands in America etc. and take land from Palestinians already living there and settle it.

Israel gives tax cuts to these people leaving their homelands to come and settle this ancient piece of land they believe is theirs because of their religion. It's like something you'd see in the 14th century. You may as well argue that pagans would be right to resettle Ireland and forcefully take the people's land.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369967#Comment_121369967

So ,if they manoeuvred Hamas into power in the West Bank they would follow that up by attacking the West Bank because they suppose Hamas (and the Palestinians in the West Bank) would have no international support and so be "easy pickings"?

Or would they leave Hamas in place because Hamas would be too weak to seriously attack again?

An uneasy modus vivendi?

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369982#Comment_121369982

I believe that settlements would ramp up dramatically with the end goal being to remove Palestinians from being in control of the West Bank. You cannot settle hundreds of thousands of people in an area unless the end goal is for all of that area to be one cohesive part of your own nation.

International condemnation is the one hinderance to doing this, and replacing moderate politics with extremists would remove than condemnation.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369983#Comment_121369983

Is this just your own interpretation or is there a body of opinion which you know of that also thinks Israel has an interest in getting a group like Hamas into power in the West Bank?

I have read about Netanyahu's seeming preference for Hamas over Fatah in Gaza but have not elsewhere heard any indication that they might "stick with" Hamas and seek to entrench them in the West Bank after having rooted them out of Gaza (if they do)

Sir_Name

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raids-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-2023-11-15/

Thoughts with the doctors, patients and civilians seeking refuge there

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369990#Comment_121369990

This is my own interpretation.

Rezident

Israeli military has finally entered Gaza's al-Shifa hospital.

Hamas gunmen may be hiding in hospital beds with guns under the sheets and 9,000 human shields - it is like something from a game of Call of Duty now. Absolutely nuts.

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369944#Comment_121369944

People seem to have completely forgotten about October 7th

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370052#Comment_121370052

Is it relevant at this stage?

brickster69

Around 10 French ambassadors to Middle east countries warn of a loss of credibility and no longer exists for them.

"These ambassadors assert that our position in favor of Israel is misunderstood in the Middle East and that it breaks with our traditionally balanced position between Israelis and Palestinians. The note [relates] a loss of credibility and influence of France, and notes the poor image of our country in the Arab world. Then, in a rather diplomatic form, it suggests that all this is the result of the positions taken by the President of the Republic.

The crisis of trust between France and the Middle East is 'serious' and risks being 'long-lasting', warn the authors of the note. 'We have experienced crises in the past with the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, but we were able to defuse them quite quickly,' recalls the diplomat who read the note. 'This time,' he adds, echoing the warning of the dissenters, 'the distrust towards us is deep and likely to last. Our interlocutors feel that we are betraying ourselves; they believe that our discourse based on humanism is in contradiction with our new approach. For them, France with its alternative voice no longer exists.'

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/conflit-israel-hamas-des-ambassadeurs-au-moyen-orient-manifestent-leur-inquietude-20231113

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370039#Comment_121370039

Source or hyperbole?

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370059#Comment_121370059

Yes hamas invading Israeli towns and a music festival where they murdered nearly 1500 people and took 240 hostages which they still hold is relevant.

What we see now are the consequences of those actions .

The IDF has entered the hospital .

Also this morning:

Israel agrees to allow fuel into Gaza - defence officials

"Israel has agreed to allow fuel shipments into Gaza for humanitarian operations, the country's defence officials have said.

It is the first time Israel has allowed fuel into the besieged Palestinian enclave since Hamas launched its 7 October attack. COGAT, the Israeli defence body responsible for Palestinian affairs, announced it would allow UN trucks to refill at the Rafah crossing on the Egyptian border later today"

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370105#Comment_121370105

The death toll has thankfully been revised downward to 1200. You have increased it to 1500.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370052#Comment_121370052

How so?

It doesn't give Israel carte blanche to target Palestinian civilians as they have been doing, or seeking to take over the Gaza strip as they seem intent on doing.

It is probable that at least 10 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli who was killed on Oct 7th, if you talk about civilian casualties on both sides, the ratio is probably 15 to 1 or maybe even 20 to 1.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370160#Comment_121370160

The Israeli response is simply "they started it, so we can and will kill as many as we want in return. Anyone who criticises our approach in any way is a Nazi and/or anti-Semite", and the vast majority of Western governments simply fall silent.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369982#Comment_121369982

If, and thats a big if, Hamas were ever in power in the West Bank I would bet on Israel annihilating them and the areas/civilians and then take over the land for Israeli settlements. Again, they have been very clear in how they envisage the aftermath of all this.

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370052#Comment_121370052

And virtually no mention of the 240 odd hostages including that little girl, Emily Hand, who has an Irish father compared with the anti-Jewish state posts here?

Can you imagine the terror that little girl has endured over the last month? Considering what we already know about Hamas, her father was relieve when he thought she was dead.

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370168#Comment_121370168

No that is untrue, the Israelis have drawn a clear distinction. It is even printed in this morning's Irish Times, in the article with the Israeli Ambassador. Did you read it? It is there in black and white.

Perhaps some of the well-meaning Irish people who have somehow ended up on the same side as Hamas, should read it. They may benefit from a different perspective as despite our human nature to 'pick a side', this is not black and white.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370039#Comment_121370039

I don't want to ruin you game image but the 9000 people went there to shelter from relentless bombing and maybe get some food/water. If Hamas have an labyrinth of tunnels, wouldn't they be long gone by now? Hiding under sheets...

brickster69

No hostages found after 5 hours of searches at Al Shifa hospital - Al Jazeera

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369973#Comment_121369973

That is nuts. Israel built the bunkers and tunnels under Al-Shifa that they will show everyone very soon.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370193#Comment_121370193

I don't trust what the Israelis say, as they are also in a propaganda war, I look at what they do. And that is the revenge-fuelled murder of countless thousands of innocent civilians and children. This is not a matter of interpretation, it is a fact. And for the Israeli ambassador to basically say "all the dead civilians are Hamas's fault, because they use them as shields" is just another typical Israeli way of dodging blame. Netenjahu himself swore "mighty vengeance" so there isn't even pretence from the top of the government that this will be a war waged according to law.

For the record, I totally condemn the Hamas attacks too. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Both the Hamas attack and the Israeli response are war crimes. It's you who seems to have picked your team here and are ignoring the unjustified suffering of the other side

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370193#Comment_121370193

But you have picked a side yourself its obvious from your posts. Citizens on both sides are suffering in the conflict, no side holds a monopoly.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370180#Comment_121370180

At least no one is saying her capture is just an inevitable part of war than just has to be accepted in the grand scheme of things. That's what people are saying about thousands of dead Palestinian children.