Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369920#Comment_121369920

I agree that Israel is creating a new generation of people who hate them but the aim of the current Israeli government is to remove the possibility of a two State solution. They are not ethnically cleansing Gaza or any related childish emotive hyperbole but they, along with their Arab neighbours, do not want a thriving Palestinian State. It's worth remembering that David Ben Gurion, the leader of the Jews in Jewish Mandated Palestine and subsequently the first Prime Minister of Israel, was a supporter of the two State solution which would have seen the region divided into Jewish and Muslim Mandated countries. It was Egypt and Jordan that ensured that there was no Palestinian homeland when they invaded and occupied Gaza and the West Bank. Jordan formally annexed the West Bank in 1950. It's also worth noting that Israel became a State in 1948, with Syria and Jordan coming into existence as modern States only two years earlier in 1946. It was Arab armies that extinguished the possibility of an Arab Palestinian State (there is a Jewish Palestinian State. Its called Israel) when they invaded Mandated Palestine in 1948.

The population of what is now Israel in 1882 was 300,000. By 1914 that had doubled, mainly as a result of the Zionist movement with an influx of Jewish homesteaders, and a much larger influx of Arab labour to work for them. The historical familial claims to the region by most of the Arab population of Israel and the Palestinian areas beside dates back to around the same time as the start of the influx of Zionist Jews.

I have a serious dislike and fear of people who claim a mandate from heaven to justify their actions. In this case both sides make such a claim.

Hamas are of the same ilk as ISIS and the Taliban who murder LGBT+ people, oppress and murder women and murder their political opponents. Anyone who thinks there is a free and open flow of information from Gaza is wilfully delusional or seriously stupid. Any Gazan that speaks out against them will be murdered.

On the other side is a Jewish fundamentalist with the same hubris and moral standards as Trump, kept in office and therefore out of prison by even more fundamentalist Jews who do want a war to ethnically cleans Gaza and the West Bank. But Israel is a democracy, a weakened one but one none the less. It has a free press, a free political opposition and, despite the best efforts of its Prime Minister, an independent Judiciary.

I don't know how anyone is stupid enough to think that Hamas aren't happy to see dead Palestinian children, to them a blood sacrifice in the fight to turn moderates against the Jews. I don't know how anyone thinks that Israel is acting with anything other than a callous disregard for the lives of Gazans. I don't know how anyone can think Israel should allow a free flow of fuel and food into a territory controlled by a terrorist organisation which holds over 200 of their citizens hostage and will use any resources it can get to kill Jews before it will use them to save Muslims.

I don't know how anyone unequivocally takes sides in that boiling cesspool.

RobbieV

Since hamas is so entrenched in civilian infrastructure such as placing command centers under a hospital for example there is no realistic way to dismantle them without wide scale destruction of the area above.

The Palestinian civilians who are innocent and the Israeli civilians who are also innocent are the victims here.

War is that worst of humanity

unkel

"The United Nations has said it estimates that at least 2,300 people – patients, staff and displaced civilians – are inside and may be unable to escape because of fierce fighting."

https://www.thejournal.ie/israeli-forces-enter-al-shifa-hospital-gaza-6223140-Nov2023/

But sure there are no Hamas in the hospital according to some deluded people on this thread? Israel is only targeting the hospital just to commit murder / war crimes / genocide / ethnic cleansing (fill in your favourite word of misplaced outrage here)

brickster69

In 7 hours not one Hamas fighter has been found in the hospital - Al Jazeera

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369995#Comment_121369995

+1

It's a brutal situtation. Hopefully the casualties stay as low as possible. But this is on Hamas. This is their war crime.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370285#Comment_121370285

That's not evidence. The hospital is being shot at routinely by idf snipers, and bombed. The piece doesn't say they found any Hamas fighters in the hospital yet you bold 2 words

Dissongenous shite

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370295#Comment_121370295

You sincerely believe IDF is just shooting at unarmed civivilians for the sake of it in the hospital and that's what the United Nations has called "fierce fighting". Seriously?

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370292#Comment_121370292

You can't absolve Israel of their crimes just because of the atrocities committed by Hamas. The world doesn't work like that.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370105#Comment_121370105

Your post literally confirms the act of a war crime (Article 33 of Geneva Convention - applying collective punishment) in the preventing of fuel being delivered to an area holding over 2M people for 5 weeks.

I've nothing but complete and total empathy for the Jewish people who have suffered greatly in the past, and I already have repeatedly extended that sympathy for them for the attacks on the 7th and the isolated events that are undoubtedly happening across the world as individuals are targeted (this is happening for Muslim people also right now of course).

But I've been appalled at the implied right the Israeli state and IDF have displayed indicating that because they have had grievances inflicted on them, no one can question anything they do, no matter how disproportionate it is.

The behavior of Israel in the UN has been unacceptable for a long time, their actions in recent weeks (wearing the star of David on the floor) has really shown them in a bad light.

The millions of people protesting and calling for a ceasefire worldwide are doing so because of Israels actions since the 7th of October. Calling Israel out on this does neither qualify as antiSemitic, or devalue the lives of those who died on the 7th.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370315#Comment_121370315

Hamas using no distinction plus human shields and command nodes under a hospital, turns that civilian infrastructure into a legitimate military target. So unless IDF uses disproportionate violence, no war crime is commited here. And from what I have read on IHL, proportionality is pretty much out the window when it comes to terrorists / human shield situations.

nachouser

It's not a war crime is up there with Trump is not a rapist.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370052#Comment_121370052

Yes, that's because the violent levels of biblical retribution inflicted by Israel have completely eclipsed the horrors of that day. Israel has ceased to be a state worthy of it's place in the nations of the world.

brickster69

According to Al Jazeera

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370226#Comment_121370226

I have a serious dislike and fear of people who claim a mandate from heaven to justify their actions. In this case both sides make such a claim.

You and me both. And the same goes for other Gulf states and Christian fundamentalists in the US or Buddhists in Myanmar. I'm all for a freedom to practice religion and for it to play a significant part in a peoples or countries culture, but not that it gets to the point of governing policy. Or claims of a divine right in any respect.

I can understand why Hamas exist, but that doesn't mean I agree with them or their focus. I've said on here before that the path to peace should focus on showing Palestinians that they do not need Hamas rather than trying to eradicate a violent resistance.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370290#Comment_121370290

It sounds for all the world like they entered a normal hospital full of doctors and patients.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370383#Comment_121370383

I agree with you on all that in principle. If / when the Palestinians accept they don't need Hamas (they probably already have?), do you think Hamas voluntarily disbandons? I don't think they will.

brickster69

Large cardboard boxes of supplies arriving at the hospital

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724678643010404446

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370059#Comment_121370059

This is kind of a strange comment, it's a bit like suggesting that the attack on Pearl Harbour on the 7th of December 1941 was not really relevant to the US response ... that's the thing about acts of war. When they're done, the victim gets to decide how they respond.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370409#Comment_121370409

I'd imagine a similar path as with the IRA.

A split in those who accept to try the peaceful route and those committed to the extremes of eradicating Israel.

But, with global combined efforts on sanctioning their funders and through specific and micro focus on leaders who remain with this mindset they should be manageable to not be able to derail things.

I'm not suggesting it will be easy, but it is the only viable solution to peace in the region. And of course for the above to happen, Israel would have to radically change its behavior also.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369468#Comment_121369468

The American intelligence agencies were 100% correct with everything they published regarding what Russia was doing in February 2022.

It was almost surreal how closely the actual events followed their warnings.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370437#Comment_121370437

Unfortunately, there are so many rogue states in the region - Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc. - that practice the oppression of religious minorities, slavery of Asians, discrimination against women and creation of a rich elite, that Hamas will get funding and support to keep the eye of the patsies in the West off their activities.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370290#Comment_121370290

Whatever the truth is, each side will believe what they want regarding what went on or didn't go on in the hospital.

Some will insist Hamas were there no matter what

If the IDF releases evidence to show Hamas were there, other people will say it's all fabricated.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370411#Comment_121370411

I guess the positive outcome, when the hospital is cleared of Hamas and their command center (if it's there), means there's absolutely no reason why the hospital cannot be supplied with everything it needs to function and treat patients. That obligation is still on Israel.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370457#Comment_121370457

That is true. Israel will have to make the hospital function fully and effectively.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370453#Comment_121370453

Your American friends can make it much harder for Hamas's Political leaders to source funding abroad. They can start with Qatar. They need to treat Qatar in the same way as they do Iran.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370453#Comment_121370453

Israel is a rogue state in the region also.

I would like to see the removal of vetos at the UN level and to see that body, the EU, the US to push sanctions on anyone disturbing the peace. Wishful thinking at this moment as the EU and US inflame the situation with their tacit support of Israels actions over the last month, but it is likely the only peaceful solution.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370428#Comment_121370428

But now long was Pearl Harbor relevant for, or 9/11, or Bloody Sunday? How long do these events justify anything and everything for? Was Pearl Harbor in the minds of those who gave the go ahead of fire bomb Tokyo?

Maybe a weird comment but at some stage, the world will stop using October 7th as some sort of justification for Israel's response and all these deaths.

People here seem to be ok with 10k-25k deaths I suppose, as a sort of "this is war" inevitability of things, but surely that must stop even if Israel doesn't.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370437#Comment_121370437

Mostly agree with you again in principle, if only Hamas were like the IRA though. And never mind their leaders, there's still probably 10k+ Hamas extremists in Gaza, I can't see them ever being harmless. Better for the world to exterminate them.

Fully agree with the international pressure required and for Israel to seriously change their ways.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370303#Comment_121370303

There has been numerous reports of snipers targeting patients - inside the hospital. So while there maybe fierce fighting, civilians are also being targeted and that was also before Israel entered the hospital. So frankly I dont think much of IDF's ethics either

Sir_Name

More Than 500 U.S. Officials Sign Letter Protesting Biden’s Israel Policy - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Pressure builds.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370226#Comment_121370226

I agree that Israel is creating a new generation of people who hate them but the aim of the current Israeli government is to remove the possibility of a two State solution. They are not ethnically cleansing Gaza...

It is not up to Israel to decide if Palestinians have their state or not. A UN resolution agrees it. A good post earlier basically said Israel IDF want one thing... Hamas want the same thing (one state) - just two sides of the same coin resulting in mass murder and suffering.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370470#Comment_121370470

"Peaceful solution" my rear end. This is about the destruction of Israel. Countries like Iran and groups like Hamas, Hezbollah etc won't stop until Israel is destroyed the Jews have been driven into the sea.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370485#Comment_121370485

It's relevant until the war is over. That's how war works. Israel faces an enemy in Hamas that likely won't stop until one or the other is totally annihilated. I don't see any reason why Israel should not treat the 7th of October attacks as their Pearl Harbor.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370470#Comment_121370470

Do you seriously think that Russia and China would even stay in the UN if their vetoes were taken away? Get realistic, the vetoes hold the UN together, without them, the big powers would quit and ignore it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370485#Comment_121370485

Pearl Harbour was relevant for six years of WW2, 9/11 was relevant for a decade, the PIRA used Bloody Sunday for 20 years, and you are calling on Israel to forget about 7/10 after six weeks?

sock.rocker*

Thankfully the British didn't possess your zeal for treating terrorist attacks as invites for total war and annihilation.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370522#Comment_121370522

"Peaceful solution" my rear end. This is about the destruction of Israel. Countries like Iran and groups like Hamas, Hezbollah etc won't stop until Israel is destroyed the Jews have been driven into the sea.

Some people think that. Most don't. The only solution is a peaceful solution.

Some people who say they want peace, don't really, and contribute to the violence even without ever picking up a weapon. They're as big a part of the problem as those who do take up arms.

Or how much conflict and death do you think should be expected per year on an ongoing basis? Because, I've news for you, occupying or erasing Palestine will do nothing to make Israel safer.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370537#Comment_121370537

Six years, a decade, etc. Yet Palestinians aren't allowed any time apparently. That's what we've learned since October and it's something I agree with. It's never ok and Hamas were completely incorrect to attack.

But Israel will be given years of this death and destruction as if its their right after October 7th.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370538#Comment_121370538

If you're referring to the IRA's campaign of terror against the British mainland in the mid-late 20th century, there are two massive differences between the IRA attacks on Britain and the conflict in Israel.

1. The IRA never controlled Ireland, our government never supported terrorist attacks on Britain.
2. The conflict between the IRA and Britain was never a fight to the death. The IRA never sought to destroy Britain, only to remove it from Northern Ireland. Had they "won," there was never any question of a United Ireland going on the offensive and driving the Protestants into the sea from the British mainland.

Neither of these applies to Israel/Palestinians - Hamas are the government of Gaza and their goal is the extermination of the Jews and the complete destruction of Israel in its entirety.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370538#Comment_121370538

I don't recall the IRA going into a family home, gauging out the eye of the husband (so he can still see with his other eye). Then slicing off the breast of the wife. Chopping off the leg of their little girl and cutting off all toes of their little boy. Then having a good laugh at the scene, truely enjoying their work. And then when getting a bit bored, just finishing them all off and having a nice meal at the family table themselves.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370528#Comment_121370528

Let them leave. And learn as the UK is learning that it is better to be within a group with shared interests you've signed up to than outside it demanding co-operation.

Russia is no longer the power it thinks it is or used to be. China absolutely is, but I believe China is pragmatic also and if it is seen to be outside the sphere of cooperation and influence, it will look for a diplomatic solution.

I'm being very optimistic here, the actions of the last month have made what I am talking about impossible from even being mentioned for at least ten years and possibly much longer than that.

Military focus of groups/governments/nations has brought nothing but pain/suffering/death and economic hardship for those who initiated it for the last 100+ years. Alternative methods of diplomacy should be prioritized at all times to avoid this.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370411#Comment_121370411

Isn't it sad that Israel have to fight their way into a hospital to be able to deliver supplies.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370569#Comment_121370569

What retribution do you think Palestinians in the West Bank are entitled to in response for all the murders and deaths associated with settling six hundred thousand Israelis there?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370578#Comment_121370578

Lets tone back the graphic descriptions of what is happening.

I saw a tweet yesterday that an official Israeli account shared to show their compassion with an IDF soldier guiding an old man with a walking stick across the road. A second tweet was shown beside it of the same man lying dead having been shot twice in the back of the head. There are horrific acts been carried out by both sides.

When I see someone posting gorey details of the attack on the 7th, all I see is someone trying to absolve Israel from their actions. To my mind, denying power to a hospital knowing people will die is as bad as what you have described.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370578#Comment_121370578

So if the IRA did actually do that, do you think total war and annihilation by the British would have been warranted?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370537#Comment_121370537

Pearl Harbour was attacked on Dec 7 1941. Japan surrendered in early Sept 1945. It was relevant for less than 4 years.

unkel

@Tell me how - "Lets tone back the graphic descriptions of what is happening."

Let's not. From my experience very few people actually know what sort of savagery went on that day. Kids tied up together and set on fire, people beheaded with blunt instruments, etc. Not just jews either, it included arabs and far eastern labourers, etc.

I find that a lot of people change their mind once they are aware. Perhaps that's why our Ceann Comhairle refused to watch it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370579#Comment_121370579

The UK was a small player in the EU, but didn't realise it. Germany and France dominate the EU, if they left it would collapse.

The same applies to the UN, remover the China, Russia and US vetoes and they will leave, and the UN would collapse. What would be left would have no power or no influence and the small countries would suffer even more. That is the realpolitik.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370622#Comment_121370622

I can't speak for the poster you're referring to, but if the IRA was the official government in Ireland during the Troubles and their objective was the complete destruction of the UK and the extermination of all British people, then I suspect things would have been a little different. Fortunately, neither of those things were true.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370676#Comment_121370676

Why do you continuously miss the point? Deliberately so. Why do you waste so many posts on missing the point ad nauseum?

I'll keep it simple - Oct 7 was a horrific barbaric terrorist attack which should not happen. All agreed. Plenty of evidence. The vengeful response has also been horrific - 11k dead, 4000 children, collective punishment (no food, water, medical supplies, comms, power, forced movement, disease, homeless). No end in sight.

Do you agree with above?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370392#Comment_121370392

A few of the civilians sheltering there will be forced to wear Hamas uniforms and hold a weapon for the cameras.

Do Hamas actually have a recognised uniform? I doubt they would wear it if they did.