Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376563#Comment_121376563

And this has been asked many times...have a go...

Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is a penalty imposed on a group for acts allegedly carried out by members of the group and applies to international and non-international armed conflicts.

Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas — is a collective punishment — as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas.

------------------

Do you agree?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376641#Comment_121376641

That seems oversimple. I note international law becomes "legal niceties" when it is not in Israel's favor. The same international law though keeps being touted as the end all be all of Israel's legitimacy here? I don't see how the two can square.

What is your response to Article 55 violations by Israel for instance?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376563#Comment_121376563

No, you are wrong. You cannot keep repeating this. Its wrong and it displays your lack of understanding. Lets dissect your language in the key sentence below

"once Hamas commits another war crime, by using hospitals, schools and refugee camps as shields for legitimate military targets, their status changes."

"once Hamas commits another war crime...." Jesus H, is this the level? very high level intro there? what do you mean?

"...by using hospitals, schools and refugee camps as shields for legitimate military targets" where is the proof? oh right... but there are tunnels...which article are you referring to? Israel must have proof (see below re harmful acts)

" their status changes" Their status changes to what? Come on, some detail...a link maybe? Their status changes to "looking for work" maybe? Single? A Bird? again, what article? thrill us with your acumen.

1/10 for that effort.

Here is the actual article.

Article 19

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

-----------------

There were no acts harmful to the enemy from within the hospital.

There was no evacuation plan or warning.

The small arms found (planted) did not remove the protection.

Having a tunnel running under a hospital, school, camp does not make it a legitimate target!!

To sum up, you are spoofing.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376499#Comment_121376499

The track record of the IDF and the video and photo evidence they provide is a terrible mess. The videos in particular seem almost comical and have thin if any evidence. Reputation on a global stage has been. Well and truely shattered

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376641#Comment_121376641

Still with this blinkered view on the topic of hostages.

Can you tell us why you put so much importance on Israeli hostages nearly to the point that if they were release that there would be peace in the region 30 minutes later and yet you refuse (as much as I can see) to acknowledge the tenfold numbers of Palestinians held without charge by Israel.

There's been repeated examples of Hamas offering to release hostages (for a ceasefire window and for prisoner exchange) and yet Israel has refused to entertain this idea.

Not to mention the hostages killed by Israel in its indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.

You've posted a lot about the justification of over 10K Palestinian deaths because of the deaths of 1200 Israelis, and you comment so much about the importance of about 200 Israeli hostages while ignoring completely the 2000 odd Palestinian prisoners held without charge.

It's very hard to not deduce from this that in the eyes of some, one Israeli life is equal in value to about ten Palestinian lives.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376686#Comment_121376686

What do you mean it is not in Israel's favour? That is absurd. Having the 7/10 criminals sent to the ICC is in Israel's favour.

Your posts are so biased and cannot see beyond prejudices against Israel to present logical arguments.

Which bit of you don't have to accede to international law to be still acting within it is a problem for you? It is like me saying that I don't recognise the 120 kph speed limit on the motorway but never driving faster than 119 kph. It doesn't matter if you recognise a law once you abide by it.

The Article 55 nonsense? Dealt with that pages ago. All based on a notion that Israel is an Occupying Power prior to 7/10. It doesn't meet the test, no matter how many times well-meaning but naive NGOs argue that it does.

The solution to the conflict is quite simple. Release the hostages and handover the perpetrators to the ICC. Why do you think that the EU puts releasing the hostages to the forefront of all its statements???

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376713#Comment_121376713

Not just me, the EU are calling for it too. As is the US.

Why do you put so much importance on what Arab countries and the likes of Cuba and Venezuela are calling for?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376752#Comment_121376752

Any chance you could answer as to your own motivations for these views instead of deflecting.

I place importance on the pursuit of stopping the killing and destruction of people as the absolute priority. Why do you not?

(Still waiting for your justification for prioritizing Israeli lives over Palestinians)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376720#Comment_121376720

What do you mean it is not in Israel's favour? That is absurd. 

Article 55. That's what I mean. Article 19 as well for instance. Do you agree or disagree that Israel needs to recognize the ICC and be held accountable for charges of war crimes under such international laws?

Your posts are so biased and cannot see beyond prejudices against Israel to present logical arguments.

Argumentum ad hominem. I don't have any prejudices against Israel, everything I have posted in this thread about Israel is based on data and evidence. One cannot hope to claim someone else's argument is illogical... by engaging in ad hominem, a categorical fallacy.

If Israel does not 'accede' to international law then it is not accepting any accountability for it's actions nor taking that claim that it is "acting within it" to task. No mere person can argue they are "acting within it" that is up for courts to decide, that is the only approach that is logical. But Israel doesn't recognize a court that could do any such thing. That is the problem.

Even here you discard Article 55 like it doesn't apply -- one person making the argument when 'this doesn't apply or 'they're acting within that', doesn't bring about agreement, much less a peace solution. QED.

The solutions you provide are not really solutions they are slogans that don't really address the real situation. How can there be peace between the 2 states when 1 side is accountable to the ICC but the other never is?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376720#Comment_121376720

Dealt with that pages ago and got mauled? I love it. These are the well meaning NGOs who are wrong...

Here is a list of well respected organisations that have studied the situation in Gaza and consider Israel an Occupying Power since 2005 (and before Oct 7)

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) 

UN General Assembly

UN Security Council 

UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk

International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)

United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory

European Union (EU)

African Union

International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor)

Amnesty International

Human Rights Watch

UN Relief Workers Agency

--------------

Pathetic response.

And since Oct 7, have Israel violated Article 55?

No answer expected. Rhetorical.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376752#Comment_121376752

If you are looking to trivialize one 'side' of the peace process, how is there ever going to be a peace process?

Is a Venezuelan voice not just as loud as an Irish voice or a Japanese voice or a Cuban voice or an Israeli voice?

If Palestine is accountable to the ICC but Israel is not, how is peace achieved?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376775#Comment_121376775

The Israeli High Court of Justice has itself emphasized that the state is nonetheless required under international humanitarian law to allow Gaza to receive “what is needed in order to provide the essential humanitarian needs of the civilian population” (Jaber Al-Bassiouni Ahmed 2008, para. 11)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376811#Comment_121376811

The IDF seemingly want to sideskirt this by putting their foot in their mouth so often and declaring everyone still in north gaza to be a combatant. You even have US congressmen comparing the innocent civilians to Nazis. 'they aren't civil they're savages' etc.

https://newrepublic.com/post/176559/republican-representative-brian-mast-compares-palestinians-nazis

or the more sophist, 'they aren't even a civilization so how can they have civil rights'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/20/israeli-minister-condemned-claiming-no-such-thing-as-a-palestinian-people-bezalel-smotrich

Cluedo Monopoly

Yep, Israel and others have been dehumanising Gazans for a long time now. It's disgusting.

Is there a rational politician in Israel? They all seem to be unhinged!!

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376838#Comment_121376838

Savages is the buzzword coming out of spox mouth the most (and then after, 'Nazis' 'worse than hitler' 'animals')

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=a1qXXzPUBt8

I'm sure the mickey mouse connection here to the trail of tears etc is you know, just trivial coincidence

Overheal

Very mature approach by Republicans to the UN resolution that Israel rejected out of hand 10 mins after it passed

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4313131-desantis-pledges-to-strip-un-funding-after-latest-israel-hamas-resolution-passes/

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/nikki-haley-vows-to-pull-us-out-of-the-human-rights-council-defund-the-u-n-as-much-as-possible/

Meanwhile: tiktok freaking out when they learned that 9/11 was not for so simple a reason as "they hate our freedom TM", something which has resurfaced in the discussion about the Gaza conflict

https://www.mediaite.com/news/tiktok-cracks-down-on-users-fawning-over-bin-ladens-excuse-for-flying-planes-into-buildings/

Fox retracts kneejerk claim it made to defend Israel from critics of ethnic cleansing actions

“I was wrong when I expressly said that Pakistan had expelled Palestinians. The government there is, in fact, kicking out 1.7 million people and what they’re called a ‘tiered repatriation.’ Pakistan says those people are there illegally — they’re illegal immigrants. Now, here’s who they are: mostly Afghans who have tried to flee the Taliban. Some Uyghurs, ethnic Muslims who are facing genocide in China. And some from Iran and other places. So, I want to set the record straight — it is a mixed group of people, mostly Afghans being expelled.”

https://www.mediaite.com/media/fox-news-anchor-harris-faulkner-issues-on-air-correction-to-claim-about-israel-gaza-war/

It was blatant whataboutery on the spot:

MON., NOV. 6: "Five days ago, Pakistan kicked out 1.7 million Palestinians. Where are these people? I mean, don’t they care about the 1.7 million Palestinians that are being, I mean, just expelled from Pakistan right now? Why is that happening? Who is that happening to? Who’s creating a corridor of safety for them to go where? Who wants them? Where will they go? Why don’t they protest some of these other Arab nations that aren’t opening their doors to any Palestinians? The 1.7 million Palestinians getting kicked out of Pakistan and the people who are asked to leave the war zone for their own safety."

Which she still hadn't bothered to check herself on days later:

WED., NOV. 8: "Everybody has a heart for those suffering. (Rashida Tlaib) needs to call the leader of Pakistan where they expelled 1.7 million Palestinians."

Overheal

Into the 2nd day of looking for Hamas in a hospital, still turning up 'scant evidence'

Free link

Sure though, I already saw that IDF officer in front of both CNN and ABC check behind the curtains. Where are they?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXVN7QJ8m88

(xerox effect hasn't been kind to life of brian reposters on youtube)

brickster69

Interesting on BBC just now in the MRI room where the guns were found in the hospital. The reporter mentioned they were found close to bags of medical supplies in bags next to them. A shame that barcode is not a bit clearer

Tell me how

Radio silence once again when asked to look at a Palestinian and an Israeli as being people of equal value.

Despicable.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376910#Comment_121376910

Yes I saw that on the 6 news. The War on Hospitals is going at a great pace. Looking forward to IDF's new movie "Hamas HQ The Sequel". I hear it will have extra DVDs and chairs. They might even open the grab bag this time.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376495#Comment_121376495

I wonder if the big yellow Toyota 'jeep' that a poster told us goes up and down the tunnels was booby-trapped.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376944#Comment_121376944

Yeah, an MRI machine...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmYWkquozk

Unless those rifles were put there recently, or the Hospital hasn't been running MRI's in who knows how long, that cannot be true. Those rusty rifles would have to have been there for a long time, and it doesn't seem that likely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug3e9W5H0jI

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376752#Comment_121376752

What about the 2,000 Palestinians or more detained without either trial or charge in the West Bank since October the 7th?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377017#Comment_121377017

Immediate unconditional release and Israeli leadership surrenders to the ICC by the same logic.

tayto lover

This entire Hamas Command Centre in the hospital is very embarrassing for the US as they swallowed the Israeli excuse to commit war crimes and now that nothing substantial was found they will find it hard to save face. A few old rusty guns that the Israelis probably brought in when the egg on their faces solidified does not cut the mustard.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376354#Comment_121376354

Jerusalem Post have stuff on it. For example 4 IDF were killed by a BT and others suffered serious injuries per the interview with a medic but I can’t remember which website the interview was on it.

I know I know it’s Israeli media.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377061#Comment_121377061

Also, how would a few guns in a hospital in Gaza city pose a danger to Israel? I'm not sure they've even thought this one out.

brickster69

Looks like a big discovery is about to be made shortly.

gotaf

https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1725184612098269689

so Israel do still control the rafah crossing?

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377099#Comment_121377099

Just speculating here but Egypt must have to at least tell them roughly x vehicles etc. are going to cross in at x time, or x is expected to come out to Egypt (and have that approved).

They don't want the Irsaeli airforce to bomb whatever is moving on the roads in Gaza or bomb supplies they are sending in etc.

Afair Israel has done airstrikes close to that crossing.

gotaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377136#Comment_121377136

Is it kind of accepted then that Israel are an occupying force. If Egypt need approval from them for border crossings with gaza.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377154#Comment_121377154

I thought they were the occupying power (?).

I mean pre this crisis they did not day to day administer the details of what is going on in Gaza but really it is not sovereign, and not anything close to a state.

Israel had a large amount of control over it. It is the same in the West Bank.

I kind of see the Palestinians as almost an internal problem for Israel, but they often seem to be trying to make others responsible for sorting it out, the (other) Arab states, the US, the EU, the UN, god knows who else next. You break it you bought it though.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377084#Comment_121377084

I notice no fuel to actually run the hospital. Lights, machines, incubators etc. Not allowed it seems.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376968#Comment_121376968

If its still there, for sure it is. Just like many other items and places are booby trapped. Realistically, I'd say that vehicles are too important and valuable for Hamaz to needlessly destroy them. But if it was broken down and un-repairable, the yes, it will be booby trapped, Its SOP in situations like this. I've seen booby traps in the most innocuous of places, ingeniously hidden. Rigged so that opening a door or causing the slightest vibration would trigger an explosion. And that's what the IDF have to contend with, and why progress is so slow. Plus the sheer size and scale of the tunnels. They have been likened to the London underground in scale and depth and complexity.

brickster69

Seems strange they search for hours and find nothing, then get a delivery of medical supplies. Then find a stash of weapons behind a MRI machine next to a cardboard box with bagged up medical supplies all over the floor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67436154

tayto lover

Where have the thousands of Hamas fighters gone? No sign of them around the hospital.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377195#Comment_121377195

Oh good God.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377195#Comment_121377195

Realistically, I'd say that vehicles are too important and valuable for Hamaz to needlessly destroy them. But if it was broken down and un-repairable, the yes, it will be booby trapped, Its SOP in situations like this. I've seen booby traps in the most innocuous of places, ingeniously hidden. Rigged so that opening a door or causing the slightest vibration would trigger an explosion.

So why did this not happen?

https://youtu.be/NP6raWKH7DA?si=UO0Bi540pZpm0VUa&t=373

?

I await your expert and experienced response after that 'you've never been in a warzone' smear. A motorcycle, broken down, but you say it's SOP to booby trap it and the room etc. but none of that happened. Much vibration as IDF and news crews stampede around the place, rip back curtains, etc.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377099#Comment_121377099

They have since about 2005. All aid for Gaza from the Egyptian side enters via Israel. Trucks are driven into Israel, inspected and then driven along the border under the watch of the IDF and then into Gaza.

In the case of people entering and exiting and the lists we've heard of and Hamas not allowing people leave etc... there's 2 sides to the border. Hamas may let you leave, but that only gets you to the Egyptian side of the crossing. In that case it looks like Israel and Egypt have an agreement and only those on a list may enter Egypt.

So with that and a naval blockade since 2005.... People still think Gaza hasn't been under occupation before the 7/10 attacks.

rogber

So now that the IDF is seemingly not finding evidence of the hospital being a Hamas command centre, the new line is "they've taken all the stuff away since we identified the hospital as their command centre a few weeks ago".

Hamas is a vile organisation, but come on Israel, you've got to offer more than "the lack of evidence is all the proof we need that we were right"

tayto lover

Journalists really taking the Command Centre argument apart. Making a total joke of Israeli soldiers pointing out parts of the hospital as being tunnels, Command Centre etc. when they turned out to be a liftshaft and a water tank. Its laughable but also so sad that so many had to die in and around the hospital to satisfy the Israeli lust for deaths.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377232#Comment_121377232

'there's a command and control HQ under the hospital'

'uhm yeah there is'

'we know there is theyre worse than hitler duh'

'check out this CGI, leave the hospital'

'we have the evidence'

'we don't talk about intelligence'

'have you not seen our CGI? Holocaust denier.'

'we have surrounded the hospital because of all the evidence we have'

'we are looking for the evidence'

'they got away with the evidence'

'this baby bottle proves there was a baby hostage in a childrens hospital'

'okay we will bring in large pallets of conspicuously marked 'MEDICAL SUPPLIES''

'Wow look at all these rusted rifles we suddenly found all over the hospital'

'we need a few more weeks to find Hamas in the hospital'

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377232#Comment_121377232

Taken all the stuff???? Hamas managed to move the whole damn command center away by the looks of it. That's some tunneling. Dig out a few feet of dirt, backfill it behind them and shimmy down the strip to the a new location.

On a side note, the actual structure Israel built under the hospital decades ago, have the IDF shown any footage of that? Surely they remember where the entrance was. I'm curious if it was recently in use or abandoned all this time.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377247#Comment_121377247

What's worse is some people on here wouldn't have batted an eyelid if the IDF just bombed the hospital. They would have taken the IDF at their word that there was a command center under it and was an imminent threat to the safety of Israel.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377061#Comment_121377061

It's not really. The US has been like the privileged/wealthy parents of an errant teenager who has been involved in a disturbance at school or something.

They've no interest in finding out the truth but are going to defend their offspring no matter what. They don't care about the lack of evidence, they probably knew there was no intelligence to justify the attacks on the hospital and so this is just about PR work for 12-24 hours or so. It would only be embarrassing if they felt that they had to justify their support for Israel, they clearly don't.

Biden has cut the progressive element of the Democrat party adrift completely. They've probably weighed it up and decided they'll gain way more center right floating voters than they will lose and so be it.

Very very disappointing to see, particularly with Biden repeating IDF/PR lines like their irrefutable facts despite the evidence (or lack of). Also the likes of John Fetterman who was elected after a huge progressive push for his campaign last year.

News from the US today is that APAC (with 100M of GOP money) is going to go after progressive Democrats such as Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib (the only Palestinian/American in congress) and that Democrat leadership isn't too bothered about this.

I've been a big defender of Biden as President, that is a small consolation and the only thing that will give me joy if he runs and wins next year is that he'll have kept out a Conservative that would have done everything he is doing with respect to Israel, and a lot more damage besides.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377212#Comment_121377212

That would have been the miracle that the IDF have been praying for....TV crews, CNN etc. in the tunnel supposedly beneath the hospital and then a booby trapped bike going BOOM !!! Lovely, just what the propaganda doctor ordered. I mean with such timely and undeniable proof of Hamaz active directly underneath the hospital, and all recorded live on camera!!! Who could ever doubt Israels claim that they were indeed cleaning out a vipers nest of Hamas terrorists beneath the hospital? and further more, there were more such nests, many more to be attacked and neutralized.

As for the so-called smear, anyone who has been in a war zone, and is watching and following what's happening in Gaza / Israel, would not have any doubts whatsoever about what the IDF will face in those tunnels. And they would not have to wait for any news articles to tell them either. None the less, the subject of booby traps has been widely reported, long before I mentioned it, had you been following what has been happening?.

As things stand now, and with best available information, would feel confident enough and trust your belief that these tunnels are not booby trapped to risk entering one, and exploring it? Because, I'll tell you one thing, the IDF are far from happy about it, and if they can "Neutralize" from outside, without entering, that's exactly what they'll do, and by any means possible.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377264#Comment_121377264

100%

The flattening of that hospital would have been deemed completely justifiable under unnamed "rules of war" based on an Israeli whim.

Israel's war on hospitals has already ensured that almost all of them have ceased to function. That was always the plan. They'd rather they did not exist in Northern Gaza.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377247#Comment_121377247

I notice too that TV news shows are now treating any IDF claims very sceptically : RTE, BBC, Sky News etc.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377099#Comment_121377099

No, the Rafah crossing is controlled by the Egyptian Border Guard. Egypt, not Israel, has closed it twice this year both in the aftermath of attacks by Hamas.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377316#Comment_121377316

Nothing in this post even attempted to address why, in this real world example, facts directly contradicted your own assertions that it is "standard SOP" to booby-trap disabled vehicles left behind?

As you said previously, most of what you're saying is conjecture or stale historical reporting not related to the current conflict. And examples like the one in bold, that conjecture is being eroded by facts.

As things stand now, and the best available information, there are no reports of booby trapping in this current conflict that have been provided. It was alleged that it was standard SOP to booby trap a disabled/unrepairable vehicle, such a vehicle was left behind and no such booby trap was present. Direct evidence of this negative, provided by the IDF, CNN, and ABC, and other journalists who I may be omitting by mention from the same visit.