Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378040#Comment_121378040

I'd be inclined to think that in the case of the Egypt / Palestine / Israel, it would be more for Israel checking that no weapons were being trucked in.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378079#Comment_121378079

Which still directly indicates that Israel is an occupying force at that border, which is essential to the point being made that Gaza is afforded no control of any of its own borders or waters. ie. that it is an open-air prison.

blackcard

One way or another, the IDF will have to 'find' a Hamas command centre at the hospital. They will have to 'find' guns. Surely they can do better than a few rusty guns, surely they can cook up something more convincing or do they not care what the wider world think of them? This is a great opportunity to fully occupy Gaza but they need to make their actions at least slightly plausible.

gotaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377990#Comment_121377990

What punishment would you suggest?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378017#Comment_121378017

If you go back a few posts, there's video showing the IDF members in tunnel / room they say is underneath the hospital. They also show a motorbike and some weapons. So, it looks like there are tunnels which are worth the risk (especially as they are looking for evidence that confirms what they say about Hamas using Hospitals, Schools, Apartment block's etc. as cover / human shields) and there are other ones that they consider too dangerous and will have to be taken out by other means.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378089#Comment_121378089

Imports and Exports also strictly controlled. Most fuel is smuggled in via tunnels to Egypt. The blockade ruined the Gaza economy. 50% unemployment, most dependent on aid to survive.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377538#Comment_121377538

Heres the quote in question where a booby trap is mentuoned.:-

EXPOSED:

In the Shifa Hospital complex, IDF troops found a hidden booby-trapped vehicle containing a large number of weapons, including:

· AK-47s

· RPGs

· sniper rifles

· grenades

· other explosives

As others have mentioned, that booby trap was well taken care of by a specialized team, who were long gone by the time the all clear was given before anyone was allowed enter the area. Again, I repeat myself, that's SOP for dealing with VBED's. Now I ask you one more time. Who do you think those weapons/ explosives belonged to? Hamas or the IDF?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378165#Comment_121378165

Heres the quote in question where a booby trap is mentuoned

Yeah and it cited the video as it's evidence. A video which lended no support to there being any booby trap. I don't know why you want to keep circling that wagon.

As others have mentioned, that booby trap was well taken care of by a specialized team, who were long gone by the time the all clear was given before anyone was allowed enter the area.

No idea who you are referring to now. Post #? Source?

I don't know, are the boxes marked MEDICAL SUPPLIES, medical supplies? What you or I think is immaterial. What is fact is of interest.

markodaly

The Palestinian Ambassador to Ireland making a fool of herself.

"Hamas would definitely respect a ceasefire...!!"

Pity they broke it on October 7th.

.

.

"Hamas is definitely not a terrorist group, they are an integral part of the Palestinian people."

Also refuses to condemn what Hamas did on October 7th.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377633#Comment_121377633

To be honest you are far too obsessed with trying to nitpick at the smallest things.

This by x10000

This culture of nitpicking and trying to find fault with everything is similar to what Holocaust deniers do. Many of those people admit that Jews did die but will fight tooth and nail about the figures, and methods and some will deny they were even gassed. Nickping eh!?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378203#Comment_121378203

She said of Hamas was “an integral part” of the Palestinian people, “whether I agree or disagree with their ideology”.

https://www.thejournal.ie/jilan-abdalmajid-palestinian-ambassador-dublin-gaza-6219736-Nov2023/#:~:text=She%20said%20of%20Hamas%20was,Palestinian%20Liberation%20Organisation%20(PLO).

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377836#Comment_121377836

I want to thank this post many times :)

weary1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378165#Comment_121378165

So the the IDF took several days to come up with these items, which would not be a normal part of their own armory. It takes a little while longer to move in a tunnel, but they'll get there.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378227#Comment_121378227

She also admits that many many people believe in the ideology of Hamas.

I wonder what ideology is this exactly?

One that expouses the killing of all Jews in Palestine an the world?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378246#Comment_121378246

She also admits that many many people believe in the ideology of Hamas.

It would be delusional if we didn't acknowledge that is true?

One which she indicates she doesn't agree with, ditto for everyone on the thread. They are nonetheless positioned as an integral part of the peace process as well, same as Israel is even when Israel is exterminating Palestinians by the bombful, and telling anyone they've missed thus far to move south, emigrate, etc. -- or else.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378196#Comment_121378196

It's up to you what you want to believe or not but now, here's a post complete with link. just for you, and proving that Hamas has booby trapped the tunnels, as I have said they would. And I was right. The explosive used in the tunnel was so powerful it killed the soldiers even though they were not in the tunnel, but outside it. The tunnel itself shaped the blast much the same way a shotgun does. They did not have a chance. And here's another opinion of mine. There are many, many more such booby traps waiting in the tunnels for the IDF, or indeed anyone unwary enough to enter them.

Jerusalem school principal one of 5 more soldiers ... - The Times … (bing.com)

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378196#Comment_121378196

Do you want them to set off the booby trap and blow themselves up in front of the camera before you'd believe them? Maybe it was disabled before they made the video?

It doesn't matter what evidence Israel find or not, people will still say it's fake so what is the point?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378259#Comment_121378259

Do you want them to set off the booby trap and blow themselves up in front of the camera before you'd believe them? 

What's so hard about the minimum iota of reporting, in the soldier mentioning it in his own report? The tweet made a claim, and to support it, said watch this video, and this video didn't support the claim. So now all we have are "maybes" great, irrelevant, but great.

Israel could submit all it's evidence to an international court if it recognized any! Instead of defeatist counterfactual arguments that evidence doesn't matter because truth is dead, we could do with some evidence! Nothing in the soldier's report indicated the vehicle was booby-trapped. Feel free to edit the video for the IDF if you like, or tell me where he said it in the video, at what timestamp.

If Israel is so sure nobody will believe it maybe it should rethink its stance, recognize the ICC and submit to an internationally recognized ruleset for evidence. We know why it won't do so though, they are rules for thee, and me, and they don't like that one bit.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378251#Comment_121378251

One's burden of proof isn't only done for certain people or on special occasion. Thanks for that finally, much more appreciated than hours of being assumed to have never been to a warzone etc. etc. when the link would have sufficed from the start; we can leave it here so.

Overheal

In other words, never, since Hamas leadership is unfazed by this operation and living it up in Qatar?

https://www.jns.org/biden-gaza-op-will-end-when-hamas-can-no-longer-murder-israelis/

Quagmire alert

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378274#Comment_121378274

Unfortunately, that link was not available when I claimed that the tunnels in Gaza would be booby trapped, and you could not accept it. My claim was rooted in experience in similar situations. And for certain sure, anyone with the slightest shred of military experience would not have disclaimed it either. But if you were in a war zone, do tell. Maybe we've met?. As for "leave it here so", last time you said that, ( or similar) within a few posts you were back hammering away at me thinly disguised as the " resident military expert",

SafeSurfer

Just wondering is the IDF the first military in the world to place their flag atop an undefended hospital which they have conquered?

If 7/10 was their 9/11.

15/11 was their Iwo Jima.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378104#Comment_121378104

One of the key premises asserted by the IDF is that the hospital was allegedly hiding an underground base. Deep underground, then, how is part of the hospital? Hospital may act as a deterrent to being hit by a bunker bomb on the surface, but that is about it. It is highly unlikely that there was any interaction between the hospital staff and the alleged base underneath them in any event ( if it was there)

Building tunnels has been a tactic employed by various militaries throughout history, and Hamas is no exception. These tunnels serve several purposes, including providing shelter from attacks, facilitating military operations, and enabling the movement of personnel and weapons.

The Israeli military's decision to showcase recently discovered tunnels as some sort of diplomatic achievement—I don't get it personally.  The discovery of weapons in houses in the Gaza Strip by the IDF is not surprising either, as Hamas is primarily composed of Palestinian citizens who have chosen to engage in armed struggle. However, it is important to condemn the methods and tactics employed by Hamas in executing unarmed Israeli civilians

One of the most disheartening aspects of this conflict is Israel's relentless bulldozing of Palestinian homes and structures since they invaded. The removal of buildings, infrastructure, and vegetation would transform Gaza into a barren wasteland. The actions taken by the Israeli government are not indicative of a desire for the Palestinian people to stay where they are. Instead, these actions are a clear indication that Israel is actively working towards finding a suitable alternative destination for the Palestinian people. Those who will grow up in the aftermath of this war are confronted with the horrors of the past, often witnessing the destruction of their homes and communities. This traumatic upbringing shapes their perception of the world and their likelihood of joining another group, even if Hamas is defeated here (high likelihood).

Personally, I believe that Hamas's decision to hold onto hostages as a bargaining chip is a stupid move. It is evident that the hostage-taking strategy is no longer relevant, considering the recent Israeli invasion and the failure of Hamas's demands. I would release them all your screwed up either way because Israel is coming after you.If I were a leader of Hamas and faced with the choice of whether to maintain the heat over hostages or consider releasing them in order to gain support in the West for a decrease in action against the Palestinian people, I would carefully weigh the implications and consequences of each option. Like i said, I don't understand what benefit there is for Hamas in keeping them now in tunnels.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378303#Comment_121378303

Unfortunately, that link was not available when I claimed that the tunnels in Gaza would be booby trapped, and you could not accept it.

the report you copied from was apparently from 5 days ago though. So it was available, but anyway.

I'm not interested in engaging in personalities. I cannot verify your military/war-zone experience, ditto you mine, and it never replaced reporting from the conflict. None of us are there.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378246#Comment_121378246

Actually (and at the risk of derailing the thread) Hamas has bigger plans than the liberation of Palestine.Its their stepping stone They are very similar to ISIS in their version of Islam, the Global Caliphate etc. And that's their ultimate aim.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378314#Comment_121378314

These same arguments apply to the Likud Party of Israel. Not a caliphate, but rather wiping out Palestine.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378309#Comment_121378309

Yes but it was only a few posts ago that you demanded proof from another poster, not me, that I decided to check, and there it was on the Times of Israel.

Oh, and as for the war experience, no problem. I'll even start the ball rolling: How about Afghanistan? Libya? And there's more too.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378319#Comment_121378319

So you didn't decide to check, when I asked you for that same proof, 8 and half hours ago?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376324#Comment_121376324

Why?! With all due respect, kinda rude IMHO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378306#Comment_121378306

How many people did the IDF lose in 15/11?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378333#Comment_121378333

Do you mean hostages lost to Israeli bombing or losses of IDF military personnel? Either way I believe the number is a few. Not sure precisely. Reports vary and will be disputed.

https://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/58/1262/512085/War-on-Gaza/War-on-Gaza/Israeli-losses-in-Gaza-war--servicemen-and--milita.aspx

eg.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378328#Comment_121378328

So now I'm kinda rude....really.?? Thats the kind of comment that I haven't heard in a long time!!! And even then, only from a certain section of society. Anyway,I digress. ... I made a statement in a general kind of way that based on my personal experience, those tunnels would be booby trapped, and to be honest, I was not even expecting a reply. But then along you come with your" Why are you bringing up booby traps? I've heard no reports about booby traps." TBH, up to that point neither had I heard anything about boobytraps in the tunnels, but for sure, as I mentioned, I thought that they would be. And I voiced my opinion. it was so self-evident, that I was not expecting anyone to even comment on it. Even so, it was not until Homelander or Hey You (I think) commented and basically agreeing with me, and you asked one of them to provide Proof, and it was only then that I googled, and as they say, the rest is history.

Oh BTW, Afghanistan / Libya didn't ring any bells with you? NO? OK, no problem. How about one of the Stans? Pick a Stan, OK?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378322#Comment_121378322

And I've never made that claim Grumpy, I'm just responding to the current military situation which is ongoing there. And as the nr of posts has passed the 200'000 mark, I'd say that all of the whys and wherefores have been well covered by now.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378245#Comment_121378245

To be Honest Weary1. Down the road, I fully expect the IDF to find proof that Hamas have indeed been using the tunnels, for sure. But not just yet, and by the time they do, the moment will have passed propaganda wise. No, Israel needs to find even more than beyond a reasonable doubt proof that not alone were Hamas using the tunnels but storing rockets and other munitions in them and firing rockets from the tunnels. One incontrovertible proof would be if Hamas have these rockets and explosives still there, and something set them off, now that would be evidence that's impossible to argue with. Unfortunately, it would demolish what's left of Gaza too. I'd say that what will happen most likely is that some tunnels will collapse when the booby traps go off. And that will be that,

Tell me how

All off the people who have been saying that people calling for Israel to stop what it is doing in Gaza is just blatant antisemitism should have a look at what Elon Musk is doing over on Twitter.

He has 163M followers or something, jewish people are going to be hurt by that mindset and narrative way way more than they are by people expressing concern for Palestinians.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378424#Comment_121378424

No, blatant anti semitism is blatant anti semitism, including from musk . I don't recall anyone saying that just calling for Israel to stop is that? Don't forget just in this thread we had the following blatant antisemitism: people comparing Israel to Nazis, repeated references to them "playing the holocaust card", "greedy" Jews, they control governments, control Hollywood, "no wonder people always want them dead", they have disproportionate wealth and influence and even they killed Jesus so why do the US support them.

Then at the marches there's been many, many examples of anti semitic signs, chants and speech. Off the top of my head "gas the Jews", "hitler was right", "keep the world clean" with a star of david in a trashcan and more Jesus stuff.

People seem to be willing to ignore all that though. Until someone they don't like does it, then they're all over it. Makes me think those people only care about anti semitism when they can use it for political point scoring

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378461#Comment_121378461

 I don't recall anyone saying that just calling for Israel to stop is that? 

It was done to me.

Another prominent very pro Israel poster called me a holocaust denier for saying that they were not the only community to ever experience persecution.

The vasttttttt majority of attendees at Marches have displayed only compassion for suffering Palestinians, there definitely have been some hideous antisemitic signs at some marches but to suggest that this is therefore the mindset of the entire march is doing nothing but trying to use Jewish persecution to undermine the value of others.

A lot of the conservative minded commentators who tried to use antisemitism to stifle denouncement of Israel's actions in Gaza are going to have to have a good long chat with themselves when they next rush to Musk's defense.

circadian

https://youtu.be/HD-yRuTasHU?si=tla0ISe66SwF_GXD

Media might be starting to scrutinise the Israelis more now.

Rezident

Plenty of evidence now that the Palestinians systematically use hospitals for terrorism.

The security cameras are blocked, guns hidden under medical equipment (of which there was no shortage), guns hidden behind MRI machines, flak jackets, etc.

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/video/israel-hamas-war-hamas-terrorists-weapons-gadgets-found-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-israeli-army-releases-video-2463486-2023-11-16

This would not be possible unless the hospital directors and staff and doctors etc. all went along with it.

Guns and terrorist gear in the hospitals. A new low for the species. What next for the Palestinian people?

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378726#Comment_121378726

There was also a threat of a terrorist hiding behind the curtain in the room. Don't forget that. Luckily there was no one there when he looked behind it. Phew, was a close one

Cluedo Monopoly

The same message going to Israel by various parties is completely ignored by the IDF in their bombardment.

Fear for patients as Gaza hospital care disintegrates (rte.ie)

Human Rights Watch cautioned that hospitals have special protections under international humanitarian law.

"Hospitals only lose those protections if it can be shown that harmful acts have been carried out from the premises," the watchdog's UN Director Louis Charbonneau told Reuters.

"The Israeli government hasn't provided any evidence of that," he said.

--------------

The war on hospitals rages on. I bet they will bring in the bulldozers next.

Cluedo Monopoly

More collective punishment.

Fear for patients as Gaza hospital care disintegrates (rte.ie)

Gaza communications down as 'energy runs out'

Gaza's main telecommunications companies Paltel and Jawwal said all telecom services in Gaza had gone down, as all energy sources supplying the network had run out.

Reuters journalists have been unable to reach anyone inside Shifa hospital for more than 24 hours.

The World Health Organization said it was trying to arrange a medical evacuation of patients from Shifa, but was hindered by security concerns and the inability to communicate with anyone there.

WHO officials understood around 600 patients were still inside, including 27 in critical condition.

All hospitals in northern Gaza have effectively been shut down by Israeli forces.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378726#Comment_121378726

You're worse than the IDF with their fabrications. Now the doctors and nurses were in on it? All class.

Pop quiz: how many shots were taken at IDF forces from within the hospital complex? "Acts harmful to the enemy" is the key phrase here.

markodaly

There was a debate last night in TCD, where some student caused a ruckus and started shouting "Allahu Akbar" and waving his fists aggressively at an Israeli student next to him.

What a piece of $hit.

markodaly

Another body of a hostage was found in the Al-Sifa hospital.

People should be marching to ask Hamas to surrender and release all hostages. That would immediately save lives and enable humanitarian aid to reach all the people in Gaza.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378726#Comment_121378726

And the hostages who wandered onto the grounds by themselves, probably escaped from Hamas and were seeking medical treatment before falling on the ground and dying.

We were told there were no Hamas in the hospitals, we were told there were no tunnels in the hospitals, we were told there were no hostages in the hospitals, that is what posters on here spent the last three or four days telling us. All of it is untrue, as is the rest of the pro-Hamas propaganda they are spouting 24/7 about the situation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378226#Comment_121378226

Hospital-deniers. The credibility of those who claimed there was nothing in the hospitals is in tatters. Nit-picking about not seeing booby-traps.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378328#Comment_121378328

I think it is more than kinda rude to be demanding proof off everyone else when pretty much everything you have posted on the conflict has turned out to be false.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378070#Comment_121378070

Fair play to them, though as your link states, they've passed a resolution to be 'ready' to recognize it:

“(the resolution) asks the government to be ready to recognize Palestine as an independent state when recognition could have a positive impact on the peace process, without making a final peace accord a condition.”

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379049#Comment_121379049

Ye are very excited today.

I believe there was a hostage found near the hospital. Near.

That absolutely validated the IDF using snipers to shoot people in the hospital.

Now back to the question about attacking hospitals (and cutting off their power, supplies, food, water).

Article 19

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

-----------------

Please list the acts harmful to the enemy that caused the Gazan hospitals to lose their protection. How many shots/rockets fired from the hospital? Why is the hospital not functioning?

Defending the war on hospitals?

From my link above.

Human Rights Watch cautioned that hospitals have special protections under international humanitarian law.

"Hospitals only lose those protections if it can be shown that harmful acts have been carried out from the premises," the watchdog's UN Director Louis Charbonneau told Reuters.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379070#Comment_121379070

You'll have to do better than that. Israel has been telling everyone for weeks now that the hospital housed a multi-level labyrinth of tunnels allowing Hamas to house hostages, have a command center and carry out rocket attacks from there.

Two days after they've entered it and there's nothing of the sort.

You've bought the extreme-zionist propaganda hook, line and sinker.