Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379126#Comment_121379126

Three hostages and counting, so far?

That is evidence.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379073#Comment_121379073

😂 The irony. Everytime you are schooled on your law expertise, you disappear! You dont reply to any direct questions on your misinformation mantras either. Credibility is shot I am afraid. Not a link to be found in any your posts. It's extremely disingenuous. Report away.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378237#Comment_121378237

I want you to reply to this post just once :)

Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23 - Page 616 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378751#Comment_121378751

The area has been cleared and searched. What is your point?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379126#Comment_121379126

It appears you and I are a hospital denier now 😂

The irony is that Israel has effectively closed all hospitals in Northern Gaza.

They are denying the citizens of Gaza healthcare. A violation of international law.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378752#Comment_121378752

The war on hospitals rages on. I bet they will bring in the bulldozers next.

The bulldozers arrived yesterday or before

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1725034772760498244

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379163#Comment_121379163

Wow and they have cut the comms too.

The aim of war on hospitals is to remove them from Northern Gaza altogether.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379156#Comment_121379156

The area behind the very nice curtains?

tayto lover

That poor hostage probably died like many others because of an Israeli strike. Very indiscriminate bombings. Many have said that this might happen and the relatives in particular have have continually warned about it happening.

The very fact that there was nothing of substance found in the hospital proves that the Israeli 'intelligence' was false and now with them talking about booby traps is just aggravating the situation with the intent of stopping the hospital from functioning and the threat of many more deaths.

4,600 children have died so far in Gaza. 40 in Israel. All needlessly because talks will eventually take place.

nacho libre

Hamas, or rather their military wing, are on the brink of defeat in Northern Gaza.

Now the focus is shifting to Southern Gaza...

Palestinians in the south of Gaza have been warned to leave. Where are they supposed to go to?

I see no command center has been found under the Al Shifa hospital as of yet. The goalposts have shifted on that one. It was good of the al qassam brigades to leave behind some weapons and equipment as a clue to their presence under the hospital, despite having weeks to clear out the command center and bring the hostages with them. According to the Times of Israel, the IDF knew the layout of the command center due to spies within the hospital. Yet despite all this, Hamas were able to do a disappearing act and escape the hospital without being detected by these spies. I see the Americans can't share their intelligence regarding the command center being under the hospital. Convenient.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379282#Comment_121379282

"Nothing of substance", moving on from "Hamas aren't there", is another sign of the goalposts shifting. Over the next few days, as Israel find more and more evidence of Hamas activity at the hospitals, how far do you expect to shift the position?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379282#Comment_121379282

Or, Hamas killed them. Always a possibility.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379207#Comment_121379207

I've no real dog in this fight, and IMO the thread was informative and interesting once upon a time, but to be fair the last few pages have really descended into a pedantic petty tit for tat with both sides repeating points over and over (and over). Does anyone really think there will be a gotcha moment when the other side says "you know what, you're right" ? Not trying to back seat mod or anything like that, and its not directed at yourself, just an observation from a reader of the thread.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379293#Comment_121379293

Nothing found that would even remotely require the sledgehammer tactics used. I fear the Israelis will have to plant some more 'evidence' to try to justify their actions.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379315#Comment_121379315

I dunno, a few rusty guns have people on here convinced it was justified. Same people don't understand proportionally or international law, same people wouldn't have batted an eyelid has the IDF just bombed the hospital.

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379239#Comment_121379239

But you're not debunking anything, you're presenting stuff that supports your own agenda and opinion on the matter and multiple people have taken it apart, one poster multiple times and you've ignored him repeatedly.

I don't deny any evidence that Hamas were in hospitals but the evidence I've seen so far I'd consider flimsy at best to justify the scale of the operation against the hospital and those patients who died inside it. No i don't take Hamas for idiots at all, idiots couldn't have planned and carried out the scale of butchery they did on 7th of October, savages definitely but idiots definitely not.

I know nothing is black and white in this conflict and the full truth will take a long time to come out if it ever does. However, it seems yourself and other posters have set a position of taking whatever the IDF present as evidence as gospel immediately, even though they have at multiple times over many years been caught out releasing fake videos, images etc.

Then when the Gaza Health ministry ( I know, Hamas controlled) make statements or produce death toll numbers you and others are quick to pour scorn on them even though, in the cases of death tolls especially, they have been proven to be extremely accurate by multiple outside agencies, this evidence has been routinely ignored by the pro Israeli posters because it doesn't back their narrative.

So I've answered your questions, so can I ask if you consider Israel to be an occupying force in gaze after reading all the information provided to you in this thread?

Wolf359f

https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1725441242232746170?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1725441242232746170%7Ctwgr%5Ec0b34f1d668b148f7d994d5b90122664b165174c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Fisrael-gaza-latest-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-sky-news-blog-live-updates-12978800

The war on hospitals continue, the IDF running out of hospitals in Gaza so they switch attention to the west bank.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379239#Comment_121379239

Tbf you’ve never once addressed principles of distinction.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379316#Comment_121379316

No, there won't be a gotcha moment. The Israeli actions do not clearly fall under the classification of war crimes, there will be evidence to be sorted through, was there sufficient warnings to civilians, was the intelligence reliable enough to justify the attack, was the attack proportionate etc. That will be decided over years, so there will be no gotcha moment to say yes or no.

Even in the hospital, Hamas delayed the IDF sufficiently for nearly a day to allow for the command centre to be evacuated through other tunnels and even collapsed. It will therefore take weeks to fully establish the extent of Hamas activity on the hospital grounds.

At some point in the future, probably a couple of years, it will be possible for someone to admit they were wrong, when the evidence is conclusively ruled upon. Until then, opinions will differ. That is a good thing, because it allows for discussion and debate.

For me, the useful thing to follow is something like the EU's position, as they always have a compromised middle ground position. They were fully behind the Israeli right to self-defence, wanted the immediate release of the hostages, and when they start calling for a ceasefire, you know that the chances of Israeli military action achieving any further success will be gone. The EU are already beginning to look beyond the conflict, to the future.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379327#Comment_121379327

Where did I pour scorn on Hamas reports of casualties?

I have said this many times. Israel did not meet the definition of occupying force on 6/10 because they did not have troops on the ground and did not have security control of Gaza. The extent of the Hamas actions of 7/10 are the clearest evidence that I am correct on this.

There is no point in addressing the rants of posters whose whole argument is based on Israel as an occupying power as this is not accepted.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379342#Comment_121379342

I have, putting a rocket launcher in a school playground is a war crime under the principles of distinction.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379365#Comment_121379365

The "rants of posters". You mean informed posters right?

Here is a list of well respected organisations that have studied the situation in Gaza and consider Israel an Occupying Power since 2005 (and before Oct 7)

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) 

UN General Assembly

UN Security Council 

UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk

International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)

United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory

European Union (EU)

African Union

International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor)

Amnesty International

Human Rights Watch

UN Relief Workers Agency

The Israeli High Court of Justice has itself emphasized that the state is nonetheless required under international humanitarian law to allow Gaza to receive “what is needed in order to provide the essential humanitarian needs of the civilian population” (Jaber Al-Bassiouni Ahmed 2008, para. 11).

------------

So this is not accepted by you and Israel. Is that your argument?? No reply expected.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379380#Comment_121379380

I think the question was specifically when the tank blew up civilians driving on a road in Gaza.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379327#Comment_121379327

The facts may be ignored so I will send you the reasoning...

Specifically, experts from the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory found “noting” positions held by the UN Security Council, UNGA, a 2014 declaration adopted by the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC, and “positions of previous commissions of inquiry,” that Israel has “control exercised over, inter alia, [Gaza’s] airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, including water and electricity, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry.” They also point to “other forms of force, such as military incursions and firing missiles.”

For the Gaza-Egypt border, they hold that while the Palestinian Authority operates the crossing under the supervision of EU monitors, Israel ultimately has control. Israeli security forces supervise the passenger lists—deciding who can cross—and monitor the operations and can withhold the “consent and cooperation” required to keep the crossing open. In that vein, experts note that Israel’s “coercive measures” have further “impeded efforts to build proper democratic institutions,” and that Israel still has not transferred sovereign powers and instead maintains control over “the [Palestinian Authority]’s ability to function effectively.” Based on the actual exercise of effective control, they, therefore, find that Israel has occupied Gaza since the broader occupation of Palestine began in 1967.

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379365#Comment_121379365

But Israel still has effective control over Gaza, even before this war happened, with multiple entrance checkpoints and Israeli security checks on trucks entering Gaza from Egypt. They also have a naval blockade controlling what can enter Gaza by sea, they are absolutely an occupying force and have been for a long time. This is a point backed up by the UN and multiple other agencies.

But your refusal to accept this or even the possibility because it doesn't go along with your narrative is astounding.

Ulixes

There is strong justification in the Torah for those who believe that it is the word of God to kill every man woman and child (and their cattle) in the West Bank and Gaza that isn't Jewish. It's all laid out in The Book of Deuteronomy, the fifth and last Book of the Torah.

The Book of Deuteronomy is also the fifth Book of the Old Testament so if you are a Christian and believe that the Bible is the written word of God then you must also support the annihilation of those not of the Jewish (or Christian) faith in the region. 'cause God said so and he'll always right.

And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

— Deuteronomy 2:31-34

When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.

— Deuteronomy 7:1-2

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

— Deuteronomy 13:15

But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee

— Deuteronomy 20:16-17

For those of us who don't believe in the supernatural or magic and take our moral guidance from the Enlightenment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights such notions are abhorrent.

But if you're a Christian, a real Christian, you must be impatient and disappointed that Israel isn't doing the Lords work with the appropriate amount of vim and vigour.

If you are a Muslim you will, quite naturally, be lamenting that the opposite isn't happening.

The only difference between a religion and a cult is time. Posters here can argue over who is right and wrong, or more right or more wrong, but in the end it all comes down to religion and how it gives people the moral justification to commit evil. A plague on all their houses.

fly_agaric

But if you're a Christian, a real Christian, you must be impatient and disappointed that Israel isn't doing the Lords work with the appropriate amount of vim and vigour.

Think this has been done to death on thread already, but afaik the New Testament and the ideas of Jesus are supposed to render that stuff in the Old Testament about raining down God's vengance on the (currently) living, and exhortations to violence (killing of "witches" and the like) obsolete.

At least for the "real" Christians. Definitely the case for Catholics, and I'd imagine for most Protetsants, apart from some weird evangelical sects.

Sir_Name

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tunnel-found-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-says-israel-un-aid-halted-2023-11-16/

Israel still blocking aid. I’m also concerned with the Israel notifications for people to move further south, before what looks like now southern areas to be attacked. There’ll come a stage where there isn’t anywhere else to go.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378867#Comment_121378867

I was responding to a poster who said that I knew nothing about his warzone experiences. So, I was asking him about this and listing mine for reference, and according to you, that is "Dick Waving"? Thats some jump

tigerboon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379282#Comment_121379282

That hostage, like the others, died because they were kidnapped from their homes to be used as human shields and/or as insurance against Israeli retaliation. They are being killed to try to get the IDF to back off. Hamas attack residential areas and a music festival, murder, mutilate, gang rape and burn innocent people then take hostages as human shields and run back into their tunnels. The intelligence on the hospital may be wrong, maybe not, but the IDF wouldn't be anywhere near there only for what happened on 7th October.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379555#Comment_121379555

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17–19)

I know my scripture. I know The Lord of the Rings as well and I don't think that's true either.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379614#Comment_121379614

lol, another Bible scholar...well the Devil can quote scripture to his purpose!

I actually agree with guts of your post (+ all religion is not worth all the [violent] baggage that goes with it), just not with your claim that somehow bible beaters quoting fire and brimstone wrath of God stuff from the OT to justify violence are the "real" Christians.

It doesn't stand up IMO.

Rezident

I think it is becoming increasingly clear that we have been conned by Hamas and the "ordinary Gazans". They are taking advantage of our compassion and they have been lying to us all along

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp4deJrio48

Even the Nazis were ashamed of what they did. Israeli troops suffer mental health problems from their jobs. But Hamas are proud, ecstatic at their "work" removing people's heads with shovels and killing and destroying Palestinians and Israelis alike.

Do you understand this, do you? Those of you that are still defending Hamas/Gaza?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379642#Comment_121379642

Most Christians have, thankfully, been tempered by the compassion and secularism of the Enlightenment and are good people who ignore the evil stuff. If you read what's in it and actually live by that then you'll be one of those nutters who are, by the word of the Law, real Christians.

The same applies to any religion I'm familiar with. That's what makes them scary. Killing people over who has the best invisible friend and what that invisible friend said millennia ago is not the way to go in my opinion.

Take god out of it and this is a boundary dispute.

mikewebber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378132#Comment_121378132

Could be , it's just mark urban stated on Newsnight last night that they don't enter tunnels

Anyway it's been clear from the outset that the IDF can't defeat Hamas and this is apparent now

What they are doing is dishing out punishment to Hamas and the general population

They know this but it's unsaid

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379651#Comment_121379651

Who is defending Hamas?

What does defending Gaza mean?

Israel have killed 4,700 children in a bombardment while trying to wipe out Hamas. Is this proportionate?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377424#Comment_121377424

What does it do when the power is off?

The place looked like it had been used as a store room with non functioning MRI equipment.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379674#Comment_121379674

Okay then, most Christians are not "real" Christians so.

In particular, I suppose Catholics have never really been this.

It is not up to them (and never was, even when the Pope was waging holy wars etc.) to read and interpret the Bible literally (if they see fit). It is, and always was, job of the Church and the clergy to do that for them.

I agree world would be much better without religion at this stage but unfortunately I think nasty people (who seem to regularly end up holding positions of power) will just deploy other ideas and ideologies to incite and justify violence. Would be one common justification removed though, which you'd expect to be positive on balance.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379445#Comment_121379445

You need troops on the ground to be an Occupying Power, that has always been the law going back a century.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379711#Comment_121379711

Incorrect. You do not need the physical presence of a foreign military to be under effective control.

The Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights has said  “the majority of international opinion”  holds that Israel maintains effective control, even without armed forces present.

"the majority of international opinion considers that Israel has retained effective control over the Gaza Strip by virtue of the control exercised over, inter alia, its airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry."

========

I asked another poster this once and got no reply. If Britain retained control of our waters, airspace, borders, imports, exports, movement of people, utilities etc, would you consider them an Occupying Power?? I know you would but I also know you won't admit it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379388#Comment_121379388

So now I am supposed to accept Hamas videos of events as being real and as happening in Gaza, but IDF videos have no meaning? If that incident is verified, and the full context outlined, then I will have an opinion. There are some things that are clearly war crimes - many of the actions of Hamas on 7/10 - and there are other things that are not so clear, and need to await full facts. That is one of those.

Cluedo Monopoly

Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia

Immediately after Israel withdrew in 2005, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas stated, "the legal status of the areas slated for evacuation has not changed."[77] Human Rights Watch also contested that this ended the occupation.The United Nations, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs continues to consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls the Gaza Strip's airspace and territorial waters as well as the movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.

The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs maintains an office on "Occupied Palestinian Territory", which concerns itself with the Gaza Strip. In his statement on the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories" wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel "in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war." In a 2009 interview on Democracy Now Christopher Gunness, spokesperson for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) contends that Israel is an occupying power. However, Meagan Buren, Senior Adviser to the Israel Project, a pro-Israel media group contests that characterization.

In 2007, after Hamas defeated Fatah in the Battle of Gaza (2007) and took control over the Gaza Strip, Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza. Palestinian rocket attacks and Israeli raids, such as Operation Hot Winter continued into 2008. A six month ceasefire was agreed in June 2008, but it was broken several times by both Israel and Hamas. As it reached its expiry, Hamas announced that they were unwilling to renew the ceasefire without improving the terms. At the end of December 2008 Israeli forces began Operation Cast Lead, launching the Gaza War that left an estimated 1,166–1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis dead.

In January 2012, the spokesperson for the UN Secretary General stated that under resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, the UN still regards Gaza to be a part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379674#Comment_121379674

Religion and nationalism, the two ideologies that have contributed to the worst of humanity.

Racism has its roots in one or other, as does nearly every conflict and war.

Homelander

Interesting survey here from AWRAD. Finds that vast majority of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza support the October 7th attack to varying degrees, though close to 60% strongly support.

Support for Hamas at 76%, support for Palestinian Authority just 10%. Support for the brigades who carried out the attacks extremely high, almost 90%.

Interestingly strong support for Oct 7th more prevalent in West Bank than Gaza.

Overall nothing too surprising in it but fairly informative.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379790#Comment_121379790

It wasn't a Hamas video. It's was a journalist who recorded it. Full context.... The car was driving away from the tank. What more context do you want? Suicide bombers who changed their mind and forgot to put the explosives in the car? The car swerved into the warning shot?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379711#Comment_121379711

Can you cite the law you're referring to?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379820#Comment_121379820

Somewhere about 400 posts ago I am sure I linked to it.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379571#Comment_121379571

They have cut comms too so aid agencies have no idea what's happening on the ground or in many hospitals. It's very grim for the people of Gaza.

Patrick2010

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-citizen-ibrahim-alagha-will-head-straight-to-demonstration-after-family-arrive-home-from-war-torn-gaza-tomorrow/a91660716.html

Whats the point of all these demonstrations other than inconveniencing people here, what can we do?

Also the family have been in Gaza since June, how many families can take 5 months break from work and school? Any families taking children out of school that long would be investigated.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379584#Comment_121379584

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you but it is rather foolish to believe that this entire affair began on Oct 7th. What caused Oct 7th has been going on for years and doesn't entirely excuse the murderous and savage attacks but there was certainly a build-up to it and Israel was not an innocent party in those events.