Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379805#Comment_121379805

Yes, religion and nationalism require the abandonment of reason and logic and open the door to the basest actions that humanity can perpetrate on itself. I dislike both in equal measure.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379830#Comment_121379830

Oh no you didn't. There isn't one.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379857#Comment_121379857

"Doesn't entirely excuse", wow, so it mostly excuses it? Is that what you are saying?

Both sides have been inflicting evil on each other since antiquity, each drop of blood spilled justified by the last drop of blood spilled. How red should the land be stained before "justice" is served?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379873#Comment_121379873

That is the question !! Neither side willing to accept the other. Yet the UN who have the experience of wars all over the world is not being listened to regarding the codes of conduct in war or otherwise. I see no end to it.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379808#Comment_121379808

Quite interesting study, nice find

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379883#Comment_121379883

Nobody's listened to the UN since 1961 when Dag Hammarskjöld was killed in the Congo.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379905#Comment_121379905

Yet they are the only voice of reason, with feet on the ground, commenting on what is going on.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379651#Comment_121379651

Please link to some of the posts of people defending Hamas.

Not wanting Palestinian civilians to be butchered is not defending Hamas.

Not is explaining why Hamas exists for that matter.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379790#Comment_121379790

So only one side has committed war crimes. Nice.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379941#Comment_121379941

Only one side has committed clear and unequivocal war crimes.

There are many more allegations of war crimes on both sides, e.g. the use of human shields by Hamas, the placing of rocket launchers in hospital grounds by Hamas, the actions of the IDF in bombing hospitals and schools. In some cases, these allegations are two sides of the same coin. If Hamas put rocket launchers or other military targets in a school playground, that is a war crime, so attacking it is not a war crime. Or vice versa. If Israel attacked a school without any militiary justification, that is a war crime. Impossible to know from here which of those two situations is true, hence they can only be considered allegations.

On the other hand, the taking of civilian hostages is a war crime, one of the worst actually, so it is clear that Hamas have committed that war crime. The continued holding of those hostages is also a war crime, something you and others appear to support given the criticism I have received for calling for the immediate and unconditional release of those hostages.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379924#Comment_121379924

No, not when their special rapporteur comes out with such biased and disgusting nonsense. They have no credibility in this conflict. That said the UNHCR is the only charity I donate to so I believe that they do good work but as a political organisation with Russia and China holding a Veto over any real action they have no credibility.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379325#Comment_121379325

But they didn’t just bomb the hospital, did they.

You seem disappointed that they didn’t, because it can’t confirm your prejudice.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379958#Comment_121379958

I think if you go back and check you'll find that nobody supported what Hamas did. Some can see that there was a build-up to a serious incident brewing because of the increase in settler violence and imprisonment without trial etc. Haven't we heard that Bibi was even informed that something was going to happen.

I firmly believe that war crimes were committed by both sides otherwise how would we have nearly 5,000 children killed (indiscriminate bombing). It has been called out by the UN and others already. We've been through all this before.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379969#Comment_121379969

So you don't agree with the UN calling out war crimes when it's the Israelis who are called out. Nice. I heard an Israeli general try the same thing on tv.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379982#Comment_121379982

What kind of stupid statement is that? I don't believe in committing war crimes just for my own gain on a messaging board thousands of miles away from the conflict. Is this the new thing we have to add as a signature, along with condemning Hamas' actions on 7/10 etc...

One of the first things I said when the IDF took control of the hospital was it can now be secured, power, food, water etc... can be supplied and it can get back to operating like a hospital and being able to treat patients.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379958#Comment_121379958

Ah yes. 4,700 children dead in the bombardment and not a mention of it. How many are injured and without functioning hospitals??

Some war crimes that Israel may have committed (to be proven in court). You've seemingly given Israel a Pass due to you bias for all of these. Glad you don't do law.

----------------

1 Civilians: The principle of distinction, that is to say, the obligation of warring parties to distinguish between combatants and civilians, is an important principle of IHL. 

1 Civilians: Article 57(2) of Additional Protocol I obliges parties to take precautions in their attacks to avoid or minimise incidental civilian losses. 

1 Civilians: The Fourth Convention provides in Article 51(2): The civilian population, as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of an attack. Actual threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.”

2 Hospitals: Article 19: Medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. We've been over this one countless times without reply. The key phrase for this protection to be removed is "acts harmful to the enemy". Unproven. None of the hospitals in Northern Gaza are operational thanks to Israel. Is that respecting and protecting hospitals?

3 Proportionality: Article 51(5)(b) of Additional Protocol I prohibits attacks that violate the rule of proportionality: that is to say, is not permissible to attack, even when there is a clear military target if it “may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.”. 

4 Forced movement and Starvation: Article 49 of the Fourth Convention provides that individual, or mass, forcible transfer, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, “regardless of their motive”. Where such displacements occur, all possible measures must be taken in order that the civilians are afforded satisfactory shelter, hygiene, safety and nutrition.

5 Supplies: Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population. It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.

6 Collective punishment: Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. Contrary to its duty under Article 55, the act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas is a collective punishment

7 Relief Aid: Article 61 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power to agree relief schemes for the population of an occupied territory if it is inadequately supplied.

8 No survivors: Article 41 of Additional Protocol II prohibits an order that there should be no survivors. Netanyahu has other ideas. Declaring that no quarter will be given is also a war crime under Article 89(2) of the Rome Statute.

-----------------------------

Over to you.

By the way, I agree that Hamas have committed many war crimes and I hope they are punished for it. Murdering innocent civilians and taking hostages is absolutely evidence of war crimes. However you have to take off the blinkers where Israel is concerned.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379990#Comment_121379990

Even Benjamin Netanyahu has stated "The other thing that I can say is that we'll try to finish that job with minimal civilian casualties. That's what we're trying to do. Minimal civilian casualties. But unfortunately, we're not successful." I'd love to know what figures he's using!

You don't get nearly 5k children dead in 5 weeks with anyway kind of acceptable and proportionate response.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379651#Comment_121379651

Ah yes, Douglas Murray, promoter of great replacement theory, anti-immigration, cultural Marxism and is basically a toff version of Steve Bannon. I notice this comes from Sky News Australia, which, yeah.

The Gaza strip is behind him in this video. FFS.

Strazdas

There are many who believe that Israel has been the prime aggressor in the region for the last 40 years or more and is no "victim". What has complicated things is that the pro-Israel lobby is hugely influential with western governments and the western media, giving us this 'both sides' argument. They have been so successful with this that their supporters are totally buying into the idea that the wealthy and influential Israeli state is indeed the victim and that the impoverished Palestine is the cause of all the problems in the conflict.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379808#Comment_121379808

That is interesting. The absolute hatred for Israel is palpable. We are many many decades from resolving this awful conflict. Maybe it will never be resolved.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379790#Comment_121379790

Fair enough. Time will tell.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379790#Comment_121379790

I haven’t seen anywhere it’s a Hamas video. However irrespective. A tank blew up a car with civilians in it. Hamas don’t have tanks. And I very much doubt Israeli are using tanks killing Israel civilians in their cars… literally not rocket science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380040#Comment_121380040

Then why bring up the spectre of them bombing the hospital, as if it was what they really wanted to do, but something just held them off?

It simply didn’t happen.

And less of the accusations of stupidity, please , as you note this is just a discussion thread

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379808#Comment_121379808

Interesting, and also depressing.

Such a shame we can't go back in time to Oslo and Wye and show the leaders of Palestine and Israel what the future would look like if they failed to implement their agreements.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379958#Comment_121379958

So are you saying Israel have never committed war crimes in the West Bank?

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379817#Comment_121379817

FWIW, option #2 has happened in the past if a target seems harder than originally anticipated. The car was very heavily loaded, presuming that such a vehicle heading for you is a threat is not beyond reasonable, nor is it unreasonable to think that if an aborted attack isn't struck immediately, it may attack again later at a more vulnerable target.

I've damned near done the same thing, except the driver in question hit the brakes just as I was about to shoot him, and I was delaying since I had no dismounts near me so I felt I could afford to take the risk. He still slammed into my tank, destroying his car. When I asked why he did it, he replied with the unbelievable "I didn't see the tank". On a four-lane, dead straight for at least 500m major road.

I have not heard of any incidents of Hamas suicide bombing in this operation, but I can't hold that against the tank crew. The bottom line is that situations which seem improbable after the fact are far more difficult to understand at the time.

There is one other possibility. The journalist was in company of an individual with a large still camera with a good lens. I'm surprised that the photos of the incident with greater clarity have not come out, at least that I have seen. If released it may have shown mitigating evidence for the tank crew such as the family members not being visible. The presence of the cameraman following the car is, in itself, also an indicator of a car bomb, by the way. Groups like to take footage of attacks for propaganda purposes.

It's not great evidence.

On the counter side, rifles etc found in a hospital aren't great evidence either. Contrary to common opinion, they are allowed to be armed for security purposes, the rule is that miltary activity must not be to gain miltary advantage. It's why normally protected personnel like medics and chaplains may be armed. The Israelis need to find a much better smoking gun, though I do think they still firmly believe there is such a thing. They seem to be putting a lot of effort into finding it.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379711#Comment_121379711

Again this has been proven to be untrue.

"On the other hand, the taking of civilian hostages is a war crime, one of the worst actually, so it is clear that Hamas have committed that war crime. The continued holding of those hostages is also a war crime, something you and others appear to support given the criticism I have received for calling for the immediate and unconditional release of those hostages."

What do you think of the 2000 or more Palestinians detained by Israel without charge since October?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380003#Comment_121380003

I have no problem with the UN calling out Israel for its callous disregard for human life. I do have a problem with UN officials being openly biased against Israel and undermining the credibility of the entire institution.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379990#Comment_121379990

There are a number of posters who have refused to support calls for the unconditional release of the hostages, something our Tanaiste once again called for today. Instead, they engage in whataboutery and deflection to prisoners and other issues.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380189#Comment_121380189

I haven't said that. Where war crimes are clear and unequivocal, I have pointed to them. Where they are not clear, further evidence is required before I will pass judgment. I may suspect Israel of war crimes, I may not, but I don't have clear and unequivocal evidence.

Hamas themselves have been 100% clear about committing war crimes, proudly declaring it to the world.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380153#Comment_121380153

That is what the video appears to show, but does it show the full incident?

Imagine a scenario, Hamas fighters in civilian attire fire a rocket at an Israeli tanks, they miss, they jump in a car to drive away. Video starts. Tank fires back at car with civilians in it.

That is the level of propaganda that both sides are engaged in. There is a possible war crime involved, but the evidence is not conclusive.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379856#Comment_121379856

I find it all very bizarre. It's Hamas who started this war, it's Hamas who are hiding in Gaza firing rockets at Israeli cities, it's Hamas who have made no attempt whatsoever to move civilians out of the war zone. At any time they could easily lay their weapons down, stop the loss of innocent life and end the futile fighting. This hasn't happened because Hamas have zero regard for the lives of the people they claim to represent.

The whole thing is very tragic and a terrible waste of life, but what are Irish tankies expecting Israel to do? Shake their fist at Gaza from over the border and give them a firm telling off?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380157#Comment_121380157

The IDF did bomb the al Shifa hospital prior to the raid yesterday.

The IDF also had snipers firing into the hospital.

The IDF also bombed several ambulances leaving the hospital.

All of the hospitals in Northern Gaza are non operational. I think Israel will bulldoze them when they get the people out.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380093#Comment_121380093

"There are many who believe that Israel has been the prime aggressor in the region for the last 40 years or more and is no "victim"."

Yes, those people who pick a relatively arbitrary date and decide that the score should be kept from then and then only. Both sides have, over the last 100 year, descended a long way into abhorrence in this appalling conflict. Neither has a monopoly on suffering or savagery and neither side can claim to be either or neither the victim or aggressor.

The best solution, the only solution that is viable for those who have even a modicum of humanity, is a two State solution. At the moment neither side is moving towards that goal but Hamas would never accept it.

The fact that Israel has Nuclear Weapons doesn't frighten me. A nuclear armed Iran or Hamas would terrify me.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380342#Comment_121380342

The war didn't start on October 7th though - it was just the latest flare up of a violent conflict lasting decades (a huge flare up admittedly).

To view it as the war starting on October 7th would be a total misreading of what actually happened, leading to the wrong 'solutions' being proposed. It would be like claiming that Bloody Sunday or the attack on British soldiers at Warrenpoint in 1979 was the thing that started the Troubles.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379958#Comment_121379958

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the thousands of Palestinians held without charge by Israel as hostages, is pathetic.

As is the determination that only one side has committed clear and unequivocal war crimes. If I had to pick one side, if, as you say, there was only one side, I'd be saying that that side is Israel given that Hamas don't have an army, an airforce, a navy, tanks, artillery or defined supply lines.

But that's just me maybe, I'm not hardwired to think that one side can do no wrong.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380387#Comment_121380387

A nuclear armed Hamas would not hesitate in bombing Tel Aviv. If they had a nuclear weapon, they would have done it already.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380400#Comment_121380400

Well, you would be wrong.

As for the prisoners being held by Israel, they are subject to a judicial system, however flawed by Irish standards, so are not in the same category.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380342#Comment_121380342

What should Israel have done over the past 6 weeks?

Maybe something that didn’t involve killing a child every 10 minutes.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379805#Comment_121379805

I have sympathy for that statement as I hate both.

But ,as for nationalism I have no idea what it could be superseded by?

Sure it is one world and petty nationalists would do well to understand that but I can't picture any future ever where the one world won't be divided up on geographic or comparable lines,even if those lines shift like the dunes in the desert over time.

I think the climate crisis may be a force for people to listen to what unites us rather than what divides us but if and when that existential threat is worked through I fear we will be like ferrets in a bag again.

Now,it has been said the conflicts are actually diminishing in recent years.

I am not sure why that is but it is welcome.

Ps it seems like gross stupidity has also contributed to this particular conflict as it seems fairly established that the Israelis' policy of favouring Hamas over Fatah (who have also been despicable over the years) was incredibly wrong headed.

I haven't really learned what led them down that cul de sac.

I see sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380342#Comment_121380342

How about fight Hamas fighters in the streets, not bomb 5,000 kids to death from unopposed war plans?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380220#Comment_121380220

I find it depressing the levels people go to to justify the actions of Israel.

It's all very much 'he's coming right at us' from Southpark.

I can appreciate the snap decisions that have to be made in a conflict but this was a case of the car clearly turning to leave the tank and to suggest it may go on to carry out an attack elsewhere may carry weight in a more traditional conflict where civilian cars are used, but in the middle of a densely populated area where civilians have been told to evacuate, I wouldn't be as quick to justify what happened.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379691#Comment_121379691

Yes I have heard that too, but another one (military officer) saying that there will be other cases where there will not be any choice, and they will have to go into the tunnels. And personally, I believe that this will be the case, but it will be a nightmare, and many will die.

Defeating Hamas is a different kettle of fish. There has been growing disaffection with Hamas amongst the Palestinian population for a long time now because of the way they are "ruling" here's one such report and while dated, it's still valid.

Gaza Palestinians vent against Hamas in rare online event - BBC News

Whether this will ever amount to anything, in terms of change, I don't know, but at the moment, Hamas position is secure, at least on the surface, but videos have appeared showing grieving mothers holding their dead children and screaming abuse at Hamas, blaming them for the deaths but these videos were quickly suppressed.

Defeating Hamas from a military viewpoint, I think will happen, but this will increase support for Hamas ideology, and their ideology is bigger than Palestine, and is linked to Isis etc. and so far, the plan is working. Ironically, its this very ideology that is the cause of so many Muslim country's refusing to take Palestine refugees. Previous acceptance of Palestinian Refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and even Saudi Arabia did not end well.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380404#Comment_121380404

And you'd have people on here lauding them as heroes for it and blaming Israel.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380387#Comment_121380387

The two state solution seems the only sensible one. It's very true that the both sides have been very violent for decades, but it could be argued that the West constantly giving Israel the green light for aggression may well have prolonged the conflict by many years - without this green light, they may have been forced into concessions much earlier.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380309#Comment_121380309

We’ll have to agree to disagree then: you said only one side have engaged in unequivocal war crimes. Detailed analysis here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379808#Comment_121379808

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379990#Comment_121379990

Well according to that survey linked to by @Homelander the vast majority of Palestinians approve of Hamas' actions.

So if nobody here supports Hamas' action can they really be said to support the Palestinian cause?

Are they just defending Palestinian human rights but not their political leanings?

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380464#Comment_121380464

You wouldn't and you know you wouldn't, just like you have nobody here lauding their horrific acts on 7th of October, that's a ridiculous statement to throw around.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380449#Comment_121380449

Israel is the occupier, it has to safeguard civilians. Maybe the 5000 children killed was the pilots thinking a kid was a Hamas fighter. Fighter pilot fearing for his life and having to make a split second decision has to drop the bomb. There has to be a higher standard applied to Israel.

Now the only thing I can think of is that the car was being surveyed from the air, pulled up outside a building and loaded with weapons, then followed and the tank intercepted it. But in that case, if they clearly can't tell whose in the car, maybe instead of firing a shell at it, they could have used the machine gun. Maybe the mother or daughter would have survived. It's that disportionality that really seems like Israel don't really care about any colleratal damage.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380464#Comment_121380464

Yes yes that would be great old sport.

The level.

I seem to recall an Israeli minister wanting to nuke Gaza...oh dear