Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Homelander

One observation I will make about some - not all obviously, but a select few - posters in this thread is that they treat hearsay, anecdotal accounts and pure speculation about Israeli actions as cast-iron gospel.

Anything posted that shows Hamas in the same light is played down, ignored, called lies, propaganda, dismissed, demands for unrealistic levels of "proof", et al.

Then the goalposts get moved. "There are clearly no weapons here". Weapons are found. "Israel planted them". Because of course a radical Jihadi group, reponsible for a terror attack launched with the sole objective of killing as many civlians as possible, a group that uses its own civlians as human shields, would never do that.

I'm not talking about Palestine or Palestinians or what they are suffering. I am specifically talking about Hamas.

There was even a survey conducted from within Palestine by a local, Arab think-tank that showed generally strong support for Hamas the the Oct 7th attacks and immediately one poster was trying to discredit it rather than actually talk about it.

Hamas is a barbaric, fundementalist Jihadi organisation that wants to wipe Israel off the map. It does not care for the lives of Palestinian civilians. It does not care about human rights or womens rights.

Most of them don't care about their own lives for that matter and are happy to sacrifice themselves if it means killing jews.

That's not to say anything about Hamas makes the death toll of Palestinians OK or justifiable, but don't try and downplay what Hamas is, and the fact that there is huge support for Hamas and what it did on October 7th, not only in Gaza but the West Bank too.

I mean we have a video of that guy at UCD shouting Allahu Akbar and screaming that we will do October 7th over and over again.

It would be easy and logical to say "that's not OK" regardless of your opinions on the conflict. But of course a few select posters are straight away into trying to hold everyone else accountable, and inventing scenarios that would contextually somehow make it OK.

That Palestine does not support Hamas is a complete and utter lie. Some posters here would have you believe it's a black and white situation and Israel is responsible for everything wrong in Palestine, historically and currently, and Israel is the one preventing any solution, then and now. That is also completely not true.

Nothing about the death toll in Palestine is OK. Thinking Israel is committing war crimes, is not doing remotely enough to minimise casulties, bears a large shoulder of blame for the conflict, or whatever - completely fine and rational opinions.

But a few posters on here are so anti-Israel that they are almost pro-Hamas, whether intentional or not.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384544#Comment_121384544

And there it is. When your “evidence” is exposed as nothing more than you jumping to conclusions you are straight in with oh if you don’t believe my opinion you must be an anti semite. Bad faith discussion.

ollkiller

So Israel bombed 2 schools today. Scores more children dead. There is seemingly no depravity both sides will sink to.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384756#Comment_121384756

Would you have an issue if these absolute ghouls got a knock on the door on Oct 7th?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384696#Comment_121384696

While you make a point don't generalise all Palestinians. Many are ruled by the HAMAS terrorist dictatorship against their will and many are brainwashed with hatred from a school age. No matter how dark the hour there is still hope for peace.

I've no doubt if the IRA launched HAMAS level attacks in terms of brutality and casualty rates Ireland would no longer exist as an independent state.

handlemaster

There was an article on the BBC the journalist with others were brought in to see the HAMAS supposed command station in the hospital were prohibited from speaking with staff ot patients and only see an tiny area. A few guns were rolled out as proof of Hamas . Its pathetic the reporting on this.. . wheres this big command centre and extensive tunnels that we keep hearing about. The IDF have total control there now .. if there was anything of significance we would have seen it.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384917#Comment_121384917

And some posters will condemn you as a Hamas supporter for criticising the bombing of schools.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384709#Comment_121384709

Magic Beans? Thats the best answer you can come up with??? Really? I realize that it might put a bit of strain on you to debate any of the points that I've covered but go on. Make the effort. Show me where I'm wrong or produce a counter point of view.

Calahonda52

Do the Ray-bans help?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384678#Comment_121384678

Here you are, presumably from thousands of miles away, through a few blurry snippets of footage, not only describe the manner of someone’s death, throat cut with a knife, almost severing the head. But also conclude that the victims body was washed and this was the reason her dress was removed, after previously declaring this was evidence of rape.

Have you called out any of the Israeli disinformation? Why did they feel the need to use images of non Israeli victims of a different conflict and claim they were Hamas victims?

Do you believe exaggerating the atrocities of October 7th is a strategy to excuse the atrocities Israel has undertaken since then?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384756#Comment_121384756

Great analytical post of what is the situation on the ground there.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384962#Comment_121384962

Some posters seem to take an excessive amount of pleasure in describing the events of Oct 7th.

Those events cannot be ignored but some of the posts describing them on here definitely seem to be trying to be as graphic as possible. And then, often within the same post, they discount the suffering of the Palestinians and completely ignore the manner in which thousands of them have been killed.

It has made me very uncomfortable reading it and seeing the selective concern for the victims.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384291#Comment_121384291

jmeire, as probably the only person on here with actual real world experience of conflict, and of being in that general region, what do you think about there being tunnels per se?

To be honest, I would see the tunnels as a quite logical response. The Israelis have safe houses and bunkers. Palestinians have been under siege for over a decade with constant attacks from their belligerent neighbour. I don't think that anyone who resided or spent a lot of time in a regular building would survive very long if they became a target for the Israelis.

When the Ukrainians were bedded down at their last stand in the Azovstal steel works, it was in tunnels deliberately designed to provide shelter and a place of refuge in case of attack.

People can point to what Hamas did, and nobody is excusing that in any way, shape or form. But I can't equate the mere existence of tunnels as being the logic that thousands of Gazans must die.

BTW, I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm genuinely asking your opinion.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384936#Comment_121384936

If you told the average Republican in the US that they were limited to that same number of rusty guns to "protect their home" they'd go mental and start shouting about the second amendment.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384980#Comment_121384980

Absolutely. What is especially macabre is the speculation of what happened to victims. Not just by posters here but we have had graphic descriptions of precisely what happened to victims and when by, for example, one person, even though, the events that occurred were witnessed by nobody.

This is not to diminish the suffering of victims but to call out the disinformation of those intent on stoking hatred of Palestinians.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384756#Comment_121384756

Would you support the IDF/Mossad if they took "Mr. Allahu Akbar out" so to speak? Lets say, hypothetically, they thought he had some connection to Hamas.

How about if they blew up his bus on his way from from UCD along with 80 other random students?

(Purely hypothetical question, and it does make a point. The guy has no connection to Hamas)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384665#Comment_121384665

Deflection failure:

between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

User's argument stands golden. Israel's own rhetoric will hurt them for generations as it has for generations.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384919#Comment_121384919

Absolute ghoul to an antisemite perhaps (hows that dual citizenship lie going?) As was pointed out in your article, a 'tit for tat' behaviour as the people in the photos, had seen plenty of videos of Palestinians cheering on attacks on Israel.

And yeah, I'd have an issue if they got a 'knock on the door.'

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384901#Comment_121384901

I gave you a physical analysis of what happened to Shani Louk you choose to disrespect her death and treat it as if it did not happen.

My evidence was never exposed, I got admonished for being too graphic. Nobody had presented any scenario where part of her inner skull was left at the murder site.

I will go further and explain how come the bone was removed. After cutting her throat and letting her bleed out a group of these animals decided to use her as a war trophy. As her brains and other cranial material would have got on there clothes and in there jeep they probably used a knife or something similar to scoop it out of her head and this dislodged the Petrous part of the temporal bone.

It was not a grenade, it was not an explosion, it was not an Israeli agent it was a Hamas savage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384930#Comment_121384930

I am not sure you read this post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384756#Comment_121384756

But Homelander explains quite clearly that the general population in Gaza support Hamas.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385014#Comment_121385014

But Homelander explains quite clearly that the general population in Gaza support Hamas.

Says a lot without evidence, dismissed with evidence

https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384962#Comment_121384962

"Have you called out any of the Israeli disinformation? Why did they feel the need to use images of non Israeli victims of a different conflict and claim they were Hamas victims?"

Have you a link to this story.? Which Israeli put this picture up on the internet?

Have they been fired from their job?Were they an independent actor?

Where is this story described in full?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385014#Comment_121385014

I’m not sure you are in a position to explain anything when you don’t know what happened, however vivid your imagination.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385005#Comment_121385005

Countries do love their sea chants!

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385027#Comment_121385027

"I will go further and explain" .... "probably used a knife or something"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiF0MJV_G-Y

(Top shelf film, a must-see)

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385023#Comment_121385023

The link is further back in the thread, article by Grayzone.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385009#Comment_121385009

You can't help it, I'm living in your head. I presume you saw the dates from the "Sderot Cinema", hopefully they got to see things in full 3D on Oct 7th.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383723#Comment_121383723

Bibi will be gone after this.

I agree with you about a more moderate. However I didn’t mean Israel will develop a Gaza on the Med. That is a matter for the PA or Saudi or whoever takes over Gaza in due course.

Btw some of the Israeli press very unhappy with how the settlers are treating civilians in the West Bank and speaking out. Good to hear.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385053#Comment_121385053

So, no answer about the dual citizenship lie. Sigh. Why do I bother.

brickster69

Saudi heading to a number of countries this week with an aim of ending the conflict ASAP, hopefully something good comes from it.

https://twitter.com/jhaboush/status/1725908138006659485

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383997#Comment_121383997

So now both are to blame? My my.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384040#Comment_121384040

No excuse for what he said. Please.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385058#Comment_121385058

The Israeli press has some liberal outlets but they're shrinking all the time. Some lunatic TV presenter went on the air the other night and threatened the US and all the world. They are some allie to the US though, what with all the spying and attacking ships

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/israel-attacks-uss-liberty

https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-israeli-espionage-in-us/

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384193#Comment_121384193

That clip is shocking. Listen to what he is shouting in one of our universities and that’s your conclusion?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385027#Comment_121385027

You wanted an explanation you got an explanation, I see nobody has clinically disagreed with the explanation as it's the most likely scenario. Graphical explaination of a murder is not nice you kept digging until it was explained to you. No imagination just the reality of what is the only explanation of what happened.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385060#Comment_121385060

I never replied because I never said that members of congress were entitled to dual citizenship, you did. I said there were members of congress wih dual citizenship and there is. You know this of course so you've kept on about it even though others pointed out what you were doing. I've over 100 posts with links and this is all you've managed to pick out. (oh and that the Palestinian ambassador to the UK who critised the Jewish Lawyers for Israel getting plates painted by kids from Gaza removed from a hospital wall in FEB 2023 did not critise Hamas after Oct 7th).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/27/artwork-gaza-schoolchildren-removed-chelsea-and-westminster-hospital

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385048#Comment_121385048

It just says "i Foreign Ministry has deleted the photo from the website where it publishes the footage of the Hamas atrocitie"

Nothing else?No explanation? No follow up?

Have any journalists questioned the Ministry on this subject?

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384936#Comment_121384936

CNN apparently questioning that too.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-18-23/h_1d70c190adde686e6a2b59e963499e82?fbclid=PAAaaEAdsGqerottj68zM0vEamFsdCZgsHSe66fcKru9JzSWmsD8L8mXubUcs_aem_AUPe16U9jDTG3hvzQAQmsf9V8yUovl6PS4djjEAFDPWekHl_jvMcQAQxYkt-H0axfyk

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385053#Comment_121385053

I would also have an issue with your "knock on the door"

That was a very sick comment.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385101#Comment_121385101

You are describing something you haven’t witnessed. You don’t know if a knife was used or if her body was washed. It’s just makey uppy gore porn speculation on your part.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385096#Comment_121385096

Feel free to answer the question rather than ignoring or deflecting it

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385117#Comment_121385117

I would imagine that any journalist who questioned the mendacious narrative put forward by the IDF would be dismissed as anti semitic as happens in this thread.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385018#Comment_121385018

This is the exact nonsense I was talking about.

First it was attempt to downplay or discredit the survey rather than actually discuss it.

Now it's pretend the survey is wrong because you have presented "evidence".

Except it isn't evidence. It's an article that shows that there were protests and that not every in Gaza supports Hamas.

OK? The survey itself clearly shows that not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas.

What it does show, is that a strong majority of people do, as well as the Oct 7th attacks.

And that tallies with other internal polls which suggested that Hamas enjoys widespread support, as well as the PA not holding elections in West Bank precisely because they know Hamas will take power.

To say a protest is evidence that Gaza, in a general sense, doesn't support Hamas is like saying Ireland is completely pro-life because there was a big pro-life rally in Dublin.

It's complete and utter childish, disingenuous nonsense. And quite frankly it's dangerous because it's show a blatant disregard for facts and reality that don't align with your opinions.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384999#Comment_121384999

No?

I wouldn't support the IDF/Mossad "taking him out".

I wouldn't support if they blew up any bus, anywhere, unless it was a bus carrying the leadership of Hamas on a weekend retreat.

I know what you're getting at, but I don't know why you are asking. I'm not the IDF. I'm not a spokesperson, defender of, or cheerleader for the IDF either. I don't know how people who make decisions like that - in any side, in any conflict, in any war - sleep at night, but that is their business to account for, not mine.

To answer the other poster who asked something similar - and I've no idea why - no I absolutely would not think it OK if those people watching the bombing of Gaza in their deck chairs got a "knock on the door".

Nor do I support, condone, or think it's anything other than sick to take any joy in the bombing of Gaza, and in a general sense feel the same whether you are an Israel celebrating what the IDF is doing, or a Palestinian celebrating what Hamas did on Oct 7th.

Some people have a completely bizarre idea that this is like the Premier league where you have to have a side. I don't have any side. I'm not Israel. I have no vested interest in Israel whatsoever, I do not endorse, condone, support anything Israel does or has done.

What I am is a realist who understands the Israel/Palestine question is not, and has never been, some black or white thing that can be reduced to the infantile levels it is being reduced to by some people (I am not saying you, I mean in a general sense).

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384291#Comment_121384291

They might be believe or it could be an excuse to justify their actions, either way it does not give them carte blanche to go over the top. Mark Regev admitted they wouldn't bomb a building in Israel to take out one Hamas operative, they'd send in Special forces instead. As regards the command center, we were told it was active. That Sinwar and others were likely hiding there but conveniently they disappeared. Also in the Times of Israel it was reported that Israel had spies in the hospital and they had mapped out the entire command center, not just the section Israel built. As for Homelander' s accusation that is wide of the mark. The IDF have a history of lying so its natural to be skeptical of their statements to the press. And we all know the done to death saying about the truth and war. This is why I wouldn't believe much of what Hamas says either. In fact the harsh reality is the more Palestinians civilians die the better it is for their propaganda machine , and they are winning the pr war thanks to Israel. If Hamas really cared about the plight of Palestinians civilians they wouldn't have launched the attacks in the first place because they surely knew what Israel would do in response. The best outcome of this sorry mess will be the PA taking over in Gaza once the war is over.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385299#Comment_121385299

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/18/israel-hamas-war-live-israel-issues-fresh-warning-to-leave-khan-younis-report-of-26-killed

I included the screenshot as it is a page that updates live. So it will be replaced with a different atrocity when Israel commits the next one. Could be an hour or could be in a few minutes.

My original reason for asking was that a week or two ago an Israeli airstrike killed 80 Palestinians at a market in an area they were told to move to, and excused it by claiming they were targeting one Hamas operative.

So if you support Israel doing those things on Gazan territory, It is a fair question as to whether you would support them doing it on Irish territory.

People don't have to have a "side". They may be only trying to shout "stop". In reality, it is only Israel that is active in an offensive sense at the minute.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385312#Comment_121385312

I didn't say the IDF should be taken at their word, or say anything about their credibility at all, in fact. I have doubt their PR machine is in overdrive since Oct 7th churning out propaganda and misdirection. I never claimed otherwise.

What I did say is that some people are quick to take any rumour, accusation, spectulation that paints Israel in a bad light as irrefutable reality, but constantly cast doubt on anything that paints Hamas in a bad light.

What you've said - that you don't trust the IDF or Hamas - is a perfectly logical opinion that I would say the vast majority of people subscribe to.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385174#Comment_121385174

You would imagine wrong.Any competent journalist would give a right of response to the people or department involved in the story.

This is commonplace on CNN etc

Eg "we have reached out to .... but they did not return our call"

It is called professional journalism or accountable journalism.

On this thread anyone can say what they want but if the story cannot be verified it counts for very little.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385335#Comment_121385335

This is where I'm getting lost because can you point out anywhere in this entire thread where I said it was OK for Israel to do that?

I can say it as many times as you'd like, condemn whatever it is you'd like me to condemn, because I don't support Israel, I don't have any vested interest in Israel, I don't think Israel lives are more important than Palestinians lives, or whatever else.

Understanding and discussing why someone does something, why something is, is not the same as supporting something.

I understand why the IDF does what it does and is doing. I understand why Hamas launched the October 7th assault. Neither of those sentences is any sort of expression of support for either.

The decisions of the IDF command are their own, and they can answer to them, whether a reckoning comes or not. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, but the world is full of people who make those decisions every day.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385377#Comment_121385377

You may not have done it, but others definitely have excused (even expressed explicit approval for) such actions. I simply asked you the question and you answered and I explained why I asked it.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385254#Comment_121385254

Here is something I noted on sky news. While the sample number isn’t large it was taken on Oct 6th and probably gives a better indication.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-latest-hamas-khan-younis-sky-news-live-blog-updates-12978800