Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385385#Comment_121385385

Now that's worth comparing with the other poll to see what sort of picture we can deduce regarding support for Hamas.

It's a smaller poll, but it puts strong support at 30 percent, the other poll was 60 percent. Impossible to know which is more accurate or reflective of reality but the strong support element is an important statistic.

I would imagine conducting polls like that aren't the easiest thing in Gaza at the best of times, no more than the guys who do the street interviews and polls in Russia about sentiment over Ukraine.

Sir_Name

I agree. Also the 44% with effectively zero support and 29% with very little are also worth noting. Be interesting if and when we see one with current support/trust.

Hamas came to power essentially as Gazans felt nothing was changing under the PA back in 2006. Obviously right now I imagine their main concern is surviving, food, shelter etc but I’d be concerned this Israeli response may end up creating more Hamas support. Would hope it doesn’t.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385014#Comment_121385014

Can't argue with that. This HAMAS attack was so brutal for the first time ever it's making a lot of Irish people look at viewpoints from both sides for once.

brickster69

US Middle East coordinator puts conditions on the aid coming in. Another collective punishment war crime to the list.

https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1725877327853486560

handlemaster

John Oliver had a good explanation of the current Israeli agression

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8&pp=ygUMSXNyZWFsIGhhbWFz

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385088#Comment_121385088

Again, context. I said the exact same thing in my previous post but you chose to ignore it.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385083#Comment_121385083

I couldn't understand a word any of them were shouting. Two mouthpieces imo. I doubt anyone could hear clearly what was being shouted.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384947#Comment_121384947

Your entire post is supposition but you state it as if it is fact. The truth is that you don't know what is going on. Anyone could make up stuff and it looks like you'd swallow it. If they had found anything of substance, which they had enough time to do so, then they would have shown it. You have been talking about them being afraid of booby traps yet they are filmed beside rucksacks, vehicles etc that they claimed had explosives and weapons. No way would they be standing beside them if they suspected anything dangerous. Other posters have said the same to you but your imagination has been running away with you.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384983#Comment_121384983

Why would you think this poster is the only one with real world experience of conflict? There are a few posters I can think of who have that experience.

I also think perhaps you're mixed up, since Israel left Gaza in the good hands of Hamas, Israel have constantly been attacked by them and have had to defend themselves, as they have done since 1948.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385338#Comment_121385338

+1

Anyone believing propaganda from either side are merely showing their bias, whether they understand they are doing it or not

nachouser

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/israeli-airstrikes-kill-80-in-palestinian-refugee-camp

All good. More dead kids in the latest ep of the dead kids show.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385946#Comment_121385946

~perhaps if they stopped colonising outside their borders things would go more smoothely for them.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385946#Comment_121385946

Israel has killed more Palestinians in the last 6 weeks than Palestinians have killed Israeli's since the foundation of Israel in 1948.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385946#Comment_121385946

How much land has Hamas grabbed from Israel since 1948?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385974#Comment_121385974

They seem to be bombing refugee camps for fun. Maybe it is actually is genocide.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385946#Comment_121385946

Israel has had Gaza under blockade since before Hamas came to power. Certain relatively well known Irish people were involved in a flotilla to try to break it back over 10 years ago

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-ship-joins-flotilla-in-bid-to-break-gaza-blockade-1.6695

Care to regale us of your own combat experience? Bit of a schmozzle at the chipvan in the town square after the nightclub closed when you were 18? I asked @jmreire because he knows what he is talking about. No need for other posters to get their knickers in a twist

circadian

https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/risk-of-disease-spread-soars-in-gaza-as-health-facilities-water-and-sanitation-systems-disrupted.html

"Since mid-October 2023, over 33,551 cases of diarrhea have been reported. Over half of these are among children under age five -- a significant increase compared to an average of 2000 cases monthly in children under five throughout 2021 and 2022"

For anyone that might be unaware, diarrhea is the second largest killer of under fives in the world. Having water supplies cut off will almost certainly guarantee a high number of deaths in this regard.

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/09/1211571220/israel-gaza-damage-map-satellite-imagery

A third of Gaza is now either destroyed or damaged.

https://www.icty.org/x/cases/krstic/tjug/en/krs-tj010802e-3.htm

"The humanitarian crisis in Potocari, the burning of homes in Srebrenica and Potocari, the terrorisation of Bosnian Muslim civilians, the murder of thousands of Bosnian Muslim civilians, in Potocari or in carefully orchestrated mass scale executions, and the forcible transfer of the women, children and elderly out of the territory controlled by the Bosnian Serbs, constitute persecutory acts."

"Intent by the Bosnian Serb forces to target the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica as a group is further evidenced by their destroying homes of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica and Potocari1336 and the principal mosque in Srebrenica soon after the attack."

Intent of genocide was defined in the Serbian trials, by the same measure they can be applied here too.

batman75

Hamas would have known the potential consequences of its massacre of Israelis on October 7th. The incursion into Israel humiliated Netanyahu who prides himself on being a strong man who can protect his people. It gave a green light to the extremists in Netanyahu's government to go in hard against Hamas though in reality the Palestinian people in general in Gaza.

Israel facilitated the coming into being of Hamas as a counter to the PLO. The ideal outcome for Israel was a Palestinian civil war. Which hasn't happened. Gaza has been an open air prison for decades. It is a form of concentration camp due to the restrictions imposed by Israel on Gaza. The people in power in Israel for decades have viewed Palestinians as the Nazi's viewed Jews.

It is distressing that this is so. Even more ridiculous when you consider that it is the Palestinians who were shafted from their land to create the state of Israel. I think the narrative is slowly changing whereby criticism of Israel can no longer be easily dismissed as Anti Semitism. Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Biden could stop it but chooses not too. Making him complicit in war crimes.

The people of Palestine are entitled to a state of their own and the right to govern their assigned territory with free will free from Israeli interference in exchange for Israel being allowed to exist in peace. The only tenable solution is a two state one. Israel must be made to dismantle all settlements on what is seen today as legally Palestinian territory

The Israelis are showing a distressing level of cruelty and inhumanity to their fellow man. Considering the holocaust you would think they would be better than this.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386658#Comment_121386658

So much of what is happening is incredibly depressing. It really is. Major governments in Europe and the EU itself giving the thumbs up to Israel from the very get go rather than counselling for pause and a more focused response has been sickening. So too has been US support. Not just that they're giving so much military support to Israel, we always knew they were going to do that. But the almost gleeful way that Biden has supported them with only mealy mouthed comments on Palestinian suffering. The censuring of Rashida Tlaib was another very dark mark from the US side. If Biden contests next years election, I hope he wins it because all he has done really is the same any of them are going to do and the alternative, a Republican President in todays world is an infinitely worse prospect.

But the most depressing element of this, as you said yourself, has been 'The Israelis are showing a distressing level of cruelty and inhumanity to their fellow man.'

The phrase 'Never Again' was held in such reverence for the last 80 years as people acknowledged the suffering of the Jewish community and we somehow believed that collectively we would work to prevent such a thing happening again. I know there's been cases of similar brutality meted out on communities since then (Rwanda/Kosovo/Myanmar/Sri Lanka) to name just a few, but to see actual Jewish people say pretty much the same thing about Palestinians, their community and country now as the Nazi's said about them has come close to dissolving any hope I personally held that the lessons of the Jewish suffering had been learnt.

The warmongers in Israel disgrace the memory of those who died in the holocaust. And I don't say that lightly.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384983#Comment_121384983

My take on the whole situation is based on what I see happening, and the conditions it is happening under, and it is just my personal opinion. So, if anyone is looking for proofs etc, sorry. Best look elsewhere.

Re the Tunnels: - Up to the present (and pre-7th Nov) some 20'000 missiles had hit Israel, the majority of these missiles were fired after Israel left Gaza in 2005. Then in the early hours of 7th Nov, Hamas again began launching missiles into Israel, and on that day some 3'000 missiles were fired. Since then, a further 7'000 missiles have been launched.

So now just to focus on the above paragraph. Since Nov 7th, alone 10'000 missiles have been used by Hamas, and are still being used, even at a reduced rate as the IDF take more control. Obviously, Hamas were well prepared for the attack on Israel, and still have thousands of missiles left. (Just how many exactly is the question) So for sure they have been using and expanding these tunnels since 2005. How else would they have been able to acquire and store all these missiles (and many other things too) undetected, only for the tunnels? The sheer logistics are staggering. Hamas are still active in them and will continue to use them until the IDF manages to flush them out and destroy the tunnels themselves. In as much as it will be possible to destroy them or to put them beyond use by Hamas. And this will take time, lots of time. And I'm pretty sure that plenty of evidence will be uncovered proving Hamas's occupation of the tunnels. You simply cannot occupy a place for years on end, and not leave evidence of your stay. ( of course, Israel will have a very difficult time now persuading anyone that this time, they are telling the truth) The way a lot of posters are taking the view that all Israel is claiming is just lies, and that there never was a command post under the hospital etc. are not taking into account the fact that the number of Tunnels so far investigated is miniscule, a tiny fraction of the total. The point you make about Azovstal is very valid in the context of the Gaza tunnels. Look at how long it took the Russians take it? And the human and other costs? And had the Ukrainians managed to get better logistical support in terms of weapons, food and medicine, it would have taken the Russians a lot longer to take it. For Hamas, food, medicine and safe shelter will not be a problem thanks to the tunnels.

Your comment re the tunnels being the justification for the deaths of so many Palestinians, for the Israeli's it lies in the fact of just how much of a threat these tunnels pose to them. And according to their logic, if there are going to be deaths, better them than us.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384756#Comment_121384756

I've only just seen this post.

CNN posted earlier today that the IDF 'probably' placed guns in the locations in the Al-Shifa hospital in which they were found. Also today it has come out that Israel response to the Hamas attack on the 7th of October resulted in the deaths of Israeli's.

Time and time and time again over the last several weeks the Israeli narrative has changed, shifted, been deleted, or proven to be false. People questioning official narratives on here have been proven that it is wise to do so. This is based on the reality of how events have unfurled.

If possible, with respect to prior to Oct 7th, what evidence is there to suggest that it is a complete and utter lie that Palestinian does not support Hamas? I know you referenced a report that apparently was countered and you disagree with that fact rather than it just being accepted as fact. As I've just said, we've seen time and again that information presented has been false or twisted, or a flat out lie. Elections were last held in Gaza in 2006, that's 17 years ago. The youngest person who voted in them is probably 34 or 35 now in an area where the median age is just 18 and 65% of the population are under 24. And all this is after Hamas received just 44% of the vote in 2007 (Fatah received 41%).

Given the volume of protests there have been in support of the Palestine movement worldwide, there's been remarkably few cases of extremists at these marches calling for Israel's destruction, of course these people exist, but to suggest that this implies that this is what the entirety of the people of Gaza want is without basis. And we have seen Israeli supporters, outlets and officials say equally heinous statements about Palestine and the Palestinians. Except that that is a government minister or Body saying it in a professional capacity rather than some singular errant protestor at a march somewhere.

Given what has happened in the last month or so, we can no longer say what the Palestinians view of Hamas was prior to Oct 7th, the water has been muddied too much with Israel's actions. How could anyone not understand how someone would be inclined to side with anyone who might give them a chance to avenge their hurt and loss? What we do know is that that Nethanyahu knew that an emboldened Hamas would help Israel achieve its goals and here we are, watching them ransack parts of Gaza and plan its flag on top of buildings.

And for the nth time, understanding where and how Hamas came from is not pro-Hamas, no matter how frequently it is claimed to be the case. It is simply acknowledging the facts of the situation. Before this conflict, I disagreed with Israel's behaviour, its flouting of UN resolutions, its continued transgressions with respect to settlements, it's defacto control of Gaza and it's undermining of Palestinian civilians within Israel. I now see Israel under its current guise of what is an acknowledged right wing government as a rogue state and as I've expressed repeatedly on here, I worry about what that will mean for Jewish people worldwide and conscientious people within Israel including the families of hostages who are calling for a ceasefire.

sock.rocker*

Understanding has come to mean support since echo chambers have taken over. At least boards.ie manages to continually expose us to the "other side" and it's better than just residing in a comfy little community of people who only agree.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386710#Comment_121386710

For Hamas to store 10,000 missiles (based on the Qassam 4 missile) they would need the equivalent space of 5x 40 foot shipping containers. Or stacked 1 lengthwise in a tunnel, a tunnel measuring 25km long. They don't really need to expand the tunnels that much to store them.

The tunnels under Gaza have been portrayed like a James bond villain's super lair, but nearly 4 weeks in, **** all real detailed evidence of it.

I heard the Israeli ambassador to the UK claim there's 1000km of tunnels and every second building in Gaza has a entrance to them. Seems ludicrous.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386721#Comment_121386721

I posted the survey that was countered and I disagreed with said counter? Where? Because I did not. Unless you mean the person who posted "evidence" that the survey was wrong and it was just a link to an article about a protest.

Because that proves nothing except that not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas. I certainly never claimed otherwise, and no survey supports that view, and frankly not even the most corrupt, despotic states even pretend to try claim that the entire population supports them, eg Putin's Russia.

I also certainly did not reference "the entirety" of Gaza?

I assume you're refering to the survey that said there was 60 percent strong support for Hamas and then the other survey, from a much smaller poll, said there was 30 percent strong support for Hamas.

I had no problem whatsoever with the other survey and said as much. I certainly didn't deny it, discredit it, or claim it to be wrong, so honestly I don't get where the argument is that I disagreed with it comes from.

So even if we assumed that both polls are accurate, even when one is much smaller, and meet in the middle, that equates to not far off 45-50 percent strong support. Let's say it is 40.

In what world is that percentage of strong support weak? I would say if you polled the population in many EU countries you wouldn't even reach those levels of "strong" support for the sitting Government.

And let's also address the fact that polls show completley dismal support for the PA in both Gaza and Palestine.

It discredits those who go to lengths to act like the Palestinian population is completely seperate from Hamas. It discredits the notion that Palestinians do not support Hamas.

No-one is claiming that every Palestinian man, woman, child and animal supports Hamas. But the fact is a very significant chunk of the population does. I'm not passing judgement; I can certainly see why. But a fact is a fact.

That doesn't mean what's happening is fine or that anyone deserves anything that's happening. But it is a fact that needs to be discussed and not ignored because it does not fit a certain narrative.

You've also said that understanding where and how Hamas came from is not pro-Hamas. Can you point out where I said it did? Because I expressly did not and I completely agree with that exact sentiment.

I said the polar opposite, that understanding something is in no way, shape or form endorsing something.

I specifically referenced those - and they are a select few - who take the vaguest rumor about Israel actions to be gospel, while actively downplaying everything that paints Hamas in a negative light.

People are right to challenge narratives. I don't for a second believe the IDF to be credible. I've never said otherwise. And not believing someone, or something, to not be credible doesn't mean that they aren't truthful or right, it just means that you don't automatically believe what's being said and demand a higher burden of proof.

Which is completely fine. Except some posters here are taking rumour, speculation, etc that shows Israel in a bad light instantly as pure gospel, yet when anything similar about Hamas crops up, it's dismissed as just that - rumor, unproven, unverified, propaganda, etc.

We completely and fundementally agree that discussing facts, understanding facts, actions and respective viewpoints of either Hamas or IDF is simply just that and not a siding or endorsement of either.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386744#Comment_121386744

Have you got a link or information regarding the methodologies of the (2?)polls that were conducted?

The first question that occurs to me is how free are the respondents to

(a) give their choice and

(b) how free are they to have an informed opinion in the first place.?

Also why and by whom were the polls conducted and how likely or easy would it have been to simply falsify them(give fake results)?

I am naive by nature and tend to credit these things but when I think on them ,I wonder are these questions that need to be asked?

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the results were ,sadly pretty representative of opinion but maybe that is just my bias.

Important to know,I would say.

Homelander

I have zero information of the methodology.

As I said previous, I'm sure polling people in the likes of Gaza is incredibly difficult, as it would be in other places like Russia, but people do it regardless.

How accurate the information is, of course we can't say it's irrefutably so for various reasons but it is a good indication and generally, they both align with more informal internal polls that show degrees of relatively strong support for Hamas in Palestine (West Bank and Gaza).

By relatively strong I mean in the widely understood sense, eg 30-50%, I am not sure why some people think a political poll should be way higher. If you polled an EU country right now I doubt you'd get 50% strong support for a sitting Government.

Both also show opposition to Hamas but again that is to be expected. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Hamas enjoys universal support. Even the most wildly popular Governments don't have anything close to that in any country.

It's more about gauging support for Hamas which seems relatively strong and challenging the narrative by some that Palestinians are completely seperate from governing Hamas.

The later and bigger poll also directly asked about the Oct 7th attack and there was very strong support. Is it 100% reliable? Polls never are even under the most free of conditions. But they are a good indicator.

I think the latest polls in Russia show support for the war at around 70% for example. That means some 30 odd million Russians are either indifferent, uncertain, or plain against the war, and no-one would deny that, but it can't be avoided that the fact remains that the majority support it.

As to who, the bigger poll is an arab think-tank which I believe is based in Palestine. The smaller poll referenced you'd have to check.

While I accept the poll can't be taken as pure gospel, I don't think they would be falsified as the larger one comes from a genuinely credible source.

Finally, I can understand completely why Palestinians would support Hamas. I'm not judging anyone, nor suggesting they deserve anything that's happening because they do. I am more interested in facts and reality and how said facts relate to the conflict.

brickster69

Israeli helicopters fired on their own on October 7th a the party. I did point this out a while ago but it was just speculation at the time so will dump it all this morning, now it has been confirmed

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000

brickster69

Israel to possibly bring in new death penalty law.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-773953

brickster69

US to issue visa bans.

https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1726011845004165523

Large number of troops moving in the west bank

https://twitter.com/Robert_Martin72/status/1726130858250342642

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386084#Comment_121386084

How many suicide bombs and rockets have they sent in their direction?

You're suggesting that terrorist violence is justified because of illegal Israeli settlements in the West bank.

There's always going to be 'they did this, but the others did that' neither justifies the others actions, but it does make them understandable

brickster69

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1726162004262740396

Sounds like Israeli ship will have to go around Africa to get back and forth. Last thing we need is ships getting sunk in the Suez canal.

sock.rocker*

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/18/biden-orders-top-aides-to-prepare-reprimands-for-violent-israeli-settlers-in-west-bank-00127940

Yesh Din, an Israeli rights group, reports that 197 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by settlers or Israeli forces since Oct. 7. The United Nations reports that, in the same time frame, at least 121 Palestinian households — about 1,150 people, including 452 children — have been displaced by settler violence and access restrictions.

Daily incidents of settler violence rose from three a day earlier this year to seven since the attacks, per the United Nations. About 11 Palestinian communities have been completely abandoned in 2023 alone, according to the West Bank Protection Consortium, six of them since Hamas’ assault.

It must be some craic to be Jewish, leave America, get cheap land in Palestine, get tax cuts, and murder Muslims in your free time with the support of your country and religion. Living the dream.

sock.rocker*

Something like 8-10% of Israel's population is living on stolen land. I hope the US and other countries just revokes visas for all settlers, not just the violent ones. Or ideally, all Israelis until they give back the land.

Why aren't they properly sanctioned for this like literally any other country would be? There are like 200 countries and Israel is the only one that isn't held to any standards. Palestinians can't even leave Gaza while Israelis can go anywhere in the world, including into the home of a family in the West Bank with a gun and some revolting murdering shlthead from the IDF standing behind them in case the family are terrorists and resist.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387069#Comment_121387069

You do understand the right to armed resistance against an occupying force is enshrined in international law.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/right-to-resist-in-occupied-palestine-denial-and-suppression/

sock.rocker*

They don't even think you're allowed to defend a hospital being attacked by an army. I doubt they think families in the West Bank are allowed to defend themselves either.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387218#Comment_121387218

Which land are you referring to though? The lands taken after they were invaded by their neighbours in 1948/1967 ? Or the more recent illegal settlements

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386729#Comment_121386729

Yes, it does seem ludicrous, but these are far more than tunnels. They are designed and built to survive in and fight from. Bear in mind that whatever Israel built was vastly increased and improved on since 2005 after they left. You only need stores or other chambers to be linked. And wide enough of course to move missiles etc. They are storing fuel, they have armories, explosives, food stores, kitchens, toilets, hospital facilities, generators + solar power, hoists to lift the missiles to their firing points. etc. They had all the time they needed, and of course money was not the issue. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of surprises waiting in these tunnels, and it will take some time to check and clear them all, and some will never be reached, the ones that are 2-300 feet deep. Nealy 4 weeks in, and how much of the tunnels have been checked? They made a beeline for the hospital because they believed that Hamas had a main command and control center under neath it, but whatever Hamas did have there, was long gone by the time the IDF got to them. The tunnel's story still has a long way to go, I think.

brickster69

According to Israeli sources from over a month ago. 28 helicopters and jets were used on the 7th and "had tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian"

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt

freebritney

It's genuinely amazing reading people on this thread twisting themselves into knots trying to defend Israel's atrocoties when the Israeli's themselves have no qualms at all talking about ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza.

I just wish the people defending Israel would have the courage to call it what it is, a white European colonisation of a country in the MIddle East. Israel is stronger,they are backed by the worlds only super power for strategic reasons and they will eventually eradicate all the Palestinians and we will be reading books like "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee" written about the plight of the Palestinian people. Drop the rubbish about a returning people and all the other obfuscating to call it what it is. Oct 7th was the excuse to eradicate Gaza, they'll provoke the people of the West Bank into a response then eradicate them.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387069#Comment_121387069

Here's the relevant part of your original post -

''I also think perhaps you're mixed up, since Israel left Gaza in the good hands of Hamas, Israel have constantly been attacked by them and have had to defend themselves, as they have done since 1948.''

Israel is not the only side being attacked. The IDF and the settlers have been attacking for many years hence the Palestine lands have been dwindling and sometimes the only means of defence is attack. So if its ok for one side then its ok for the other. BUT as we know, the biggest bully usually wins.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385805#Comment_121385805

Ok heres my post again:

So far, the IDF have only searched an extremely small area of tunnels beneath the hospital and basically, only scratched the surface. It's also very possible that if Hamas had been using the tunnel directly under the hospital, then it would have been "cleaned of any real evidence before the attack on the 7th. Hamaz knew very well what would happen after the attack and planned for such events. The IDF knew very well some areas of the tunnels, the part that they had built themselves, but the newer additions? That I'm not so sure about, but time will tell.

From the safety, security and invisibility of working hundreds of klms of tunnels buried between 2 & 3 hundred feet below ground, sure you could. Hamaz has moved equipment, men and supplies, and at their leisure at that. No problem. Bring in the night shift. Thats not a joke by the way. How do you think that hundreds and hundreds klms of tunnels were built???

Whether its possible or not for Israel to be defeated, does not matter. What matter is what Israeli's believe, and if they think they are under threat, that's enough for them. Just look at how long Putin has held power, all based on the lie that he is saving Russians from the Ukrainian Nazi's?

PARA 1. They have only searched a fraction of the tunnels under the Hospital; Verifiably true. Unless you know otherwise?

PARA 2. The known facts about the tunnels bear this statement out.

PARA 3, True, in my opinion, but feel free to put forward your explanation for Israels position.

Your comment re standing beside vehicle with weapons explosives all round.:- Its obvious that the IDF bomb / VBIED squad gave that whole area, especially the vehicle a very good examination, before they declared it safe, and it was only after they gave the all clear, that anyone was allowed in. Thats the same time-consuming task that will have to be performed over every inch of all of these Tunnels. All of the weapons etc lying on the ground are all in safe mode.

From your comments, it's obvious that you have never been in that kind of situation, I guess, which would explain them.

brickster69

A couple of minutes of Israeli footage from the day which was posted over a month ago. 28 helicopter and jets at it all morning inevitable a few Israeli's were caught up in it.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1713555453840400672

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387427#Comment_121387427

Its called defending, when someone else attacks you.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386658#Comment_121386658

I'd say that its precisely because of the holocaust that they are like this...

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387011#Comment_121387011

Given recent ( and even not so recent) Israeli history, making it legal to kill people seems just like a mere formality...

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387559#Comment_121387559

When the dust settles on this and the eventual reckoning comes in Israel for the security lapses on Oct 7th, I wouldn't be surprised if half the civilian casulties on the day came from IDF fire. The IDF operate with practically zero oversight or accountablilty so it's not surprising they were so reckless and gungho.

freebritney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387693#Comment_121387693

That's the excuse used for the actions of child abusers, "it was done to me so that's why I do it"

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387379#Comment_121387379

Is this the sentence you are talking about?

"As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of surprises waiting in these tunnels, and it will take some time to check and clear them all, and some will never be reached, the ones that are 2-300 feet deep."

If this is not the sentence, then show where I mentioned 3'000 feet.

And you need to follow your own advice, what is meant by GLUE SHIFFING? Was that what you were doing when you wrote your post? Or do you mean SNIFFING?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387748#Comment_121387748

It's completely understandable that they are extremely defensive and they do not like to show any weaknesses. Given that the Jewish people have always been the most persecuted people, it's completely understandable.

Imagine going through the horror of the holocaust, finally the world acknowledged their suffering, when they were afforded one single state, in order for them to feel safe, their neighbours immediately started attacking them!

It's not difficult to see how as a people they are so defensive. They clearly cannot rely on anyone else for their safety, so they do everything they believe they should in order to defend themselves.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387748#Comment_121387748

Also, it's not actually an excuse used by child abusers. Many child abusers were themselves abused as children, they don't use it as an excuse.