Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387748#Comment_121387748

Sure, and I'm making a statement about the Israeli justification, and mindset. And that is a long way from saying that I condone or approve of it. My view is quite the opposite in fact. Now what would you think about it? Israeli motivation / justification, I mean, which was the question I was trying to answer,?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386710#Comment_121386710

Thanks jmreire

I suppose that from a purely neutral perspective, for someone like me, the idea of having tunnels for self-defence purposes is a logical one. I would think that if I was in charge of something in Gaza and had a belligerent neighbour who had the habit of routinely assassinating people in positions of authority, and blowing up infrastructure and assets, I'd be recommending and encouraging the construction of tunnels too.

I wouldn't see a huge difference between Israel saying "Gaza can't have tunnels" and Russia (pre-invasion) saying "Kyiv can't have an air defence system".

And yes, Hamas do fire rockets into Israel. But perhaps Israel should have taken a step back long ago and considered why that is the situation. Israel have always held most of the power in that relationship.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386075#Comment_121386075

Well, if Israel didn't have the Iron Dome protection when Hamas launched 20'000 missiles between 2005 up to 7the dec, I am sure that the figures would not be so skewed in favor of Palestine having the highest death toll. So even if the outcomes were different, the intent was still the same. This is just a comment on the stats and not to be taken as approval ( or not) for the actions of either side.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387815#Comment_121387815

But when Israel agree to every international agreement, but their neighbours do not, what can they take a step back from?

A peace process was started in the 90s which was opposed by Palestinian militant groups, who continued to attack Israel.

What would you suggest Israel do?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387874#Comment_121387874

Depends on what you mean by "agree".

Israel said they agreed with the 1967 UN resolution but have repeatedly violated it, and continue to do it on an ongoing basis by their occupation of land allocated for Palestinians.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387815#Comment_121387815

Yes, and when / if you think about it, the very limitations in terms of area and location, the only way for Hamas to go was down, and the deeper the better. And this is what they did. No matter what it is, everything has its breaking point, and of course, had Israel backed off earlier, we would not now have a scenario which given the worldwide security situation, could not have come at a worse time.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387494#Comment_121387494

Why do you keep repeating the same debunked point. The IDF claimed to know the exact layout of the command and center under the hospital. They were giving briefing up to a week ago that Sinwar was hiding under the hospital. They claimed to have spies operating inside the hospital feeding them information about the current situation. If that is the case then how could Hamas dismantle a sophisticated command center and just disappear without the IDF being informed. It doesn't make sense

Now either their intelligence was faulty or they were lying . I have no doubt Hamas have tons of tunnels and a command center somewhere , but all the indications so far are suggest it's not under the hospital. If it was, given the intelligence the IDF claimed to have on the command center, they'd have found more than a few rusty rifles by now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/12/hamas-planning-terror-gaza-israel/?itid=mr_national%20security_2

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387895#Comment_121387895

The resolution that came after the war? Started again, by neighbours of Israel.

You seem to think that Israel can sort out the issues in the middle east, what do you suggest they do?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387693#Comment_121387693

Sure the Armenians, Anatolian Greeks, Assyrians, Bengalis, Sikhs, Mayans, East Timorese and Tutsis are the same.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387939#Comment_121387939

Your claim was that Israel "agree to every international agreement".

I merely pointed out that that claim is not really true.

nacho libre

Apparently a five day ceasefire is closed to being agreed according to the Washington Post.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387743#Comment_121387743

If the facts indicate this, the facts will never come out.

Many of the lies about atrocities will be revealed because the facts of who was killed can’t be hidden as easily as who killed them.

The IDF officer in the video a few posts previously claiming 6 babies were burnt to death in a building when only one baby has been confirmed killed on October 7th, should have questions to answer. However when IDF members can shoot unarmed kids, journalists etc without any repercussions, what are a few lies?

nacho libre

I see Joe has also warned Israel about settler violence in the West Bank due to pressure from within his own administration. He did mention denying them visas

Perhaps if he threatened to cut off aid as well it might get Bibi's attention. That will never happen though.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387953#Comment_121387953

They have always been agreeable to every international agreement, what happens afterwards is a director say it if actions in both sides.

You seem to be of the point that Israel can end all these 'hostilities ' what do you suggest they do?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387854#Comment_121387854

Interesting discussing the importance of verifiable information when replying to a Chatgpt bot.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387972#Comment_121387972

Well that goes back to my earlier of point of what you meant by "agree".

If you mean - which you appear to - that they say they agree, but in reality they do the opposite, then yes they "agree". But that wouldn't be the normal person's understanding of the word "agree".

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387930#Comment_121387930

Nacho, can you show me where I said that Hamas had a control / command centre under the hospital? I've never claimed that.

brickster69

Yemen hijack Israeli cargo ship heading through the Red Sea. And so it begins.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-774045

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387946#Comment_121387946

If you say so...maybe you should include the Irish too?? Or maybe better still, what do you think motivates the Israelis'???? Which was the original question.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387998#Comment_121387998

Right, so no interest in anything other then blaming Israel for all.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388022#Comment_121388022

I don’t know because I can’t understand their actions to be honest. I don’t think what they are doing will contribute to the long term security or prosperity of Israel or Jewish people in the future. I think a lot of the actions are due to the political expediency of the current prime minister.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387862#Comment_121387862

Israel does have the iron dome.

And an army, an airforce, a navy, artillery, supply lines, US support and the supposedly one of the most capable special forces in the world. All things that Hamas don't have.

And on their best day, rockets coming from Gaza don't come close in matching the force or impact from probably the smallest missile used by Israel.

People can try to paint this as a war of somewhat equal competing forces, it is nothing of the sort. In football terms, it's Chelsea versus Kidderminster FC.

brickster69

Looks like it is confirmed. Very serious stuff this lads especially for Europe if this flares up.

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1726242707763564828

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388104#Comment_121388104

And yet Jewish people are the absolute minority, not only in this area, but worldwide. So the fact that they put so much into their defences just shows how their psyche works.

The fact they are very good at defending themselves seems to be the biggest annoyance to others.

Beasty

freebritney threadbanned

Jimi H

According to Euro-Med Human Rights Watch Israel has dropped more than 25,000 tonnes of explosives on Gaza since 7th October. That’s the equivalent of two nuclear bombs.

brickster69

" it is not an Israeli ship. " Another one added to the list.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121387957#Comment_121387957

Some further info on this. Fingers crossed young Emily Hand is still alive (and well) and will be one of the first hostages released.

https://twitter.com/ShonaMurray_/status/1726221123678036240

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388119#Comment_121388119

The Houthi rebels have also been launching rockets into Israel from Yemen. I would hope either the IDF or even better the US send a Predator drone to their village/camp. They can't launch rockets or take over cargo vessels if they are ash.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385635#Comment_121385635

No context would excuse what he was shouting… at a random jew… in ireland.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388130#Comment_121388130

Jewish people being in the mintority has absolutely zero to do with this conflict. Zero. A bizarre point to make in fact.

Any group of people would put whatever they could in to their own defence, again, Israel is not special there. Where they are special is the amount that America puts in to their defence. They're very special in that effect.

And let me clarify, so there is absolutely no room for misinterpretation or misrepresentation of my point, Israel being good at defending itself with resepct to the iron dome, is not at all annoying. I think anything that protects human life should be applauded.

What is annoying is that they steal land from the Palestinians, subjugate them and other Arabs who live in Israel, hold defacto control over the Gaza strip denying the people within the right to exist as a valid country, that they are seeking to wipe Gaza off the map in this conflict, inflicting death and suffering on thousands and displacement on millions. That they give two fingers to collaborative assemblies such as the UN who has called out their illegal behaviour. That they contravene international law with the application of collective punishment. That they deliberately target hospitals, schools and refugee camps day after day and night after night. And that they do all of this while claiming that they are the victim and that because of what their community suffered 70+ years ago, that they get to treat another community in this manner and think that people should support and applaud them for doing so. Shame on everyone who thinks this way.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388104#Comment_121388104

And neither am I claiming any such thing, because they're not militarily matched, for want of a better world. None the less, if figures / statistics are mentioned, the Iron Dome and its preventative function in reducing Israeli deaths and injuries, deserves a mention. If only because if it did not exist, Hamas inflicted fatalities / injuries would be much higher. Pure statistics.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388119#Comment_121388119

It could well be true, but I wouldn't be opening any post with 'Looks like it is confirmed' and then posting a link from the IDF as my evidence.

They have shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388197#Comment_121388197

Ah yes, the kill them all and let God sort them out, approach.

When Hamas say this, they are rightly accused of being terrorists, when supporters of Israel say it, they expect it to be seen as a rational approach.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388037#Comment_121388037

It isn't that difficult. You said Israel agree to all international agreements. I pointed out that that isn't true. That's all it was. The fact that you want to talk about something else is just deflection and only prolonging a point that should have been finished.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388059#Comment_121388059

Personally, I think that this conflict has been festering ( right word? ) Since 1948, but each year has gotten progressively worse, until finally it has exploded, literally. We will have think tanks, commissions and academics analyzing and examining it back to the beginning, and multiple reports and recommendations issued. But even after all that what will emerge? I don't know either, because after all is said and done, It's the Middle East.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388201#Comment_121388201

No, it wouldn't. It would explain why but it doesn't excuse it. Like I said before, understanding the why means you can then begin to address the root cause.

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388215#Comment_121388215

Houthi rebels are a military group who are attacking Israeli civilians and now have taken a cargo shipped manned by civilians.

So yes send a Predator drone and a second one if the first runs out of ammunition .God won't want them either .

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388012#Comment_121388012

Well you seem to be of the view that in time they might well find one there or close by. I don't share that view, but maybe you will be proved right. What I will say is I won't be surprised if they eventually do find an underground command center somewhere in Gaza, given Hamas has spent millions over the years building them. I mean the place is tiny,and unless the Hamas leaders in Gaza have managed to escape to Qatar or Egypt, so they are no doubt hiding in a bunker deep underground somewhere in Gaza

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388193#Comment_121388193

There was a peace march to Nethanyu's offices and he eventually agreed to meet with the families of the hostages and bring the issues to his war cabinet. No doubt pressure from the Americans has been brought to bear too.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388239#Comment_121388239

Away off back to Call of Duty with your killstreaks.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388202#Comment_121388202

And this is why they are defensive. Of course they being in the minority matters. To them they have been persecuted for their whole existence, which continues to this day, with noone to defend them except themselves.

Israel have agreed to every peace solution that has been agreed. Their neighbours have stopped every chance of peace.

Gaza is ruled by Hamas, god help them. Noone in this particular conflict seems to care too much for innocent Palestinian people. Particularly not their leaders, who continue to use them as human shields.

(Israel targetting terrorist bases, is not targetting schools etc.)

I agree that Israel have contravened international law by their illegal settlements. But everything they do is completely understandable if you can see things from their perspective.

If Israel are not victims, it's because they themselves have made sure they are not. I don't know why anyone would condemn them for that.

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388281#Comment_121388281

Away back to Tipperary you.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388037#Comment_121388037

So is this an implicit admission that some blame does lay with Israel. It's good you are not biased and try to absolve Israel of all blame. Also I have no problem with Israel being a powerful military force- they need to be. If they were not the dominant force in the region this would be a wider war by now

What I object to is the disproportionate use of force. Do you agree too many civilians have been killed by Israel? Mark Regev admitted they wouldn't bomb a building in Israel to kill a hamas operative in Israel. He said they'd send in Special forces. Why the different approach?

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388304#Comment_121388304

Derry actually, but aye, no bother.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388197#Comment_121388197

One ship goes boom in that area and Europe is totally ****ed. So best off thinking about consequences before wishing for something, especially for those without any oil or gas.

RobbieV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388313#Comment_121388313

Houthi rebels shot down a US drone last week too.

These boyos must have a death wish.

The US has a massive naval force in the area to protect Israel and it's interests. Use them.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388288#Comment_121388288

They may have agreed but not abided. You seem to admit they contravened it so basically their agreement is worthless?

Please explain to me how everything Israel do is understandable, prior to oct 7th and currently in the West Bank; because for me it absolutely is not.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388237#Comment_121388237

That’s fair comment.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121388245#Comment_121388245

Your post Nacho: ( at least part of it ) "Why do you keep repeating the same debunked point. The IDF claimed to know the exact layout of the command and center under the hospital. "

I haven't changed my mind either Nacho. Since at least 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza, and Hamas took over, they have been expanding and using the tunnels. They have no choice, they are hemmed in on all sides, the only way they can go is down, and that's exactly what they did. They are fighting Israel from the tunnels, and everything that they need to fight this war, they have it underground. You name it, that's where Hamas will have it, in the Tunnels. And I do mean everything. They can live in the tunnels for months at a time, never needing to move out. So, until the IDF completely control Gaza, and manage to identify each and every tunnel access point, then Hamas will have the use of them and continue the fight. Bear in mind that this is a vast interconnected network, and they can move men and equipment very quickly when they need to. You can say that the IDF were lying when they said that they operated directly under the hospital, because they had prior knowledge, having built it. And because when they did enter it, nothing was found that would prove that Hamas was there. My view was that Hamas could have been there under the hospital all along, but within a few hours, could have left, with absolutely nothing left behind linking them to being active there. Like I mentioned several times in previous posts, give it a few weeks, or more than likely, months, and then more will be known about what was in the tunnels, and how they were used. For sure, this is only the beginning.