Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390301#Comment_121390301

Read this article too, very sad and the plight of these people gets almost no attention. Absolute human rights abuses across the board by the Israelis

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390509#Comment_121390509

There's videos of atrocities which were shown to the media which encompass burning civilians to death eg

The footage that the Israeli military showed foreign correspondents Monday included a photo of a burnt baby. It showed gunmen shooting the dead bodies of civilians in cars, militants in the process of beheading a body with a hoe, burnt corpses thrown in a dumpster.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-attack-military-war-a8f63b07641212f0de61861844e5e71e

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-hamas-led-attacks-verified

There's also footage of Hamas celebrating those atrocities.

There was horrific footage live streamed, viewed by posters on the thread, and attested to on the thread, of the beheading attack on a civilian. Footage which you know cannot be shared directly here.

You know all this, and yet "Why deny that?" Yet you did.

Why deny that indeed?

And yet, beside the abundant posts questioning posters who claim Hamas have committed atrocities, where are the posts challenging claims of alleged Israeli atrocities? So there can be no neutral pretence of "just the facts" can there?

So "why deny that"?

Plainly and obviously, it is to defend Hamas.

RobbieV

The US and Israel have said a ceasefire deal is on the horizon for release of the hostages.

Once the hostages at safe and home Israel must continue its operation and finish the job.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390564#Comment_121390564

The poster said they had watched a video of Hamas burning civilians to death with glee.

No such video exists. It’s not difficult to grasp.

The 47 minute video montage shown to the press, which I have seen, shows burnt bodies, not who burnt them. We know Israeli forces attacked houses and vehicles with tanks and helicopter hellfire missiles. If you want to know what effect these have look at some footage of the toad of death from Kuwait during the Gulf War and compare it to footage from October 7th.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390525#Comment_121390525

You are literally asking me to explain why Israel haven’t used nukes on Gaza.

Call it sneering whatever you want, doesn’t take away from the fact it’s a ridiculous question and not an example of Israel’s moral high ground.

However, since you persist. Here are a few, but not limited to reasons.

* there is no benefit to nuking Gaza, it would ultimately destroy the land and parts of Israel with it along with murdering/poisoning their own. I’m sure you’ve heard or are aware of the effects of radiation?

*without being flippant would be a terrible PR move

*the use of nuclear weapons in this day and age would be a serious threat to international peace

*Israel have never outwardly admitted it had nuclear capacity although it’s widely thought they do. If so the national atomic energy agency and nuclear inspections should be involved. They arent.

*nuclear weapons are a last last last resort.

*would be a serious violation of IHL and a war crime.

rolling boh

Bit surprised Hamas would let some hostages go for just about a three day cease fire and then Israel will just go hard again .

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390611#Comment_121390611

Nope, the merest hint of a mention of terrorist organisation Hamas committing atrocities and you are demanding a level of proof and footage and evidence you never look for when similar claims are made against Israel. It's not difficult to grasp - what your agenda is here.

It is obvious it is done to defend Hamas, and you deny the atrocities committed by them and attested to in the articles I linked.

Hamas gleefully celebrated the deliberate and wanton execution of civilians, regardless of age.

Dozens of militants in trucks whooped and celebrated on Israeli roads as bodies and cars burned around them.

That's from actual Hamas body cam footage.

And still you defend them with these tactics.

But sure, come back to us when you play this atrocity denial game when accusations are made against Israel.

brickster69

Looks like he has been turned back to the dark side. He was talking quite well lately.

https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1726520506931667238

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390624#Comment_121390624

Look, you can berate me all you want and make any accusations you want.

It doesn’t change the fact that Hamas didn’t video themselves burning civilians to death as was claimed.

If I claim to have seen a video of IDF soldiers gleefully burning Palestinians to death in Gaza will you accept that as fact or question it?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390643#Comment_121390643

These are the scum you defend with your tactics here:

The latest footage was an unceasing display of horrors. Some of it came from Hamas body cameras and videos posted by Hamas militants to social media and later verified by Israel. Some was taken by civilians as they tried to escape, some by first responders. It showed bodies of people who had been bound. A room with at least seven bodies reduced to ash. Civilians shot in bedrooms, bathrooms, front yards. Blood so thick it nearly obscured hallway floors.

Dozens of militants in trucks whooped and celebrated on Israeli roads as bodies and cars burned around them.

But no, for SafeSurfer we must have actual footage of a Hamas scum terrorist killing a civilian, setting them alight and whooping with glee before they will believe it.

These are not the tactics of someone interested in the truth, these are the actions of someone out to obscure the crimes of Hamas scum terrorists. And in doing so, gives succour to them to commit further atrocities.

Oscar_Madison

While I supported Israel’s right to respond to the Hamas attack, it’s been very clear for some time now that the price that is being paid, their minimal efforts to disrupt and destroy Hamas and the absolute no end in sight to this response, that an indefinite ceasefire needs to happen and discussions need to start.

The displacement of 100,000s of people, homes destroyed and of course the many innocent lives lost on all sides, is incredibly sad- Hamas need to take responsibility for what has occurred but Israel now needs to come to the negotiation table - either side vowing death to the other side will never end this conflict

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390651#Comment_121390651

Again, post any unlinked quotes you want and I’m not going to continue with this but the claim was that a poster had seen footage that doesn’t exist. Believe them but don’t ask me for evidence of the video of three IDF soldiers burning seven Palestinian teenagers to death in Gaza. Is that fair enough?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390575#Comment_121390575

Once the hostages are released, Israel has no cause for just war and must stop.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390690#Comment_121390690

Are you going to qualify that. Once this batch of hostages have been released or all hostages including bodies of hostages who have been killed?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390651#Comment_121390651

Yeah that act of theirs was rumbled a long time ago.

Deny Hamas do any wrong because they didnt see it. I've never seen an ostrich therefore ostriches arent real.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390688#Comment_121390688

The poster may well have seen raw footage on social media before it was taken down, which is worse than what has been released. There is sufficient evidence in what has been provided to determine that Hamas committed atrocities against civilians, including beheadings, maiming and burning, as well as executions. Gleefully so, as the celebratory footage attests.

And quotes were not 'unlinked'. They were from the articles linked above, in a direct reply to your post. Demonstrates you don't even look at the evidence provided. At any point, you are free to look for some of this yourself online but nope... Any excuse to post defending Hamas.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390564/#Comment_121390564

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390690#Comment_121390690

That's rather fanciful , oct 7th gifted Israel the chance to make a fairly large point in gaza and they are not even half finished yet

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390704#Comment_121390704

Whatever about the semantics of my post, the fact that you're openly throwing out massive stereotypes is the problem.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390310#Comment_121390310

Nobody has ever denied that the atrocities and barbarism of October 7th happened - it's not as if there is some counter narrative that that awful day and the numerous murders of innocent civilians didn't happen.

But that does not give Israel the right either to go into Gaza on a mission of genocidal revenge (and trying to dress it up as doing it for 'security' reasons).

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384271#Comment_121384271

Not only did Richard Boyd Barrett describe the man screaming Allahu Akbar at the top of his lungs as a bit of "verbal argy bargy" he refused to condemn the October 7th terrorist attack despite being prompted to do so.

The man is an utter cretin like his fellow cretins in the Dáil.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390786#Comment_121390786

Yes, it is being denied, on this thread via "just asking questions" tactics and by conspiracy theory trolls elsewhere on social media.

There were posts on this thread insinuating the whole operation was a false flag attack by Israel.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390797#Comment_121390797

If there are people doing it here, they must be a tiny minority. From what I can see, even most strong critics of Israel admit that the October 7th terrorist attacks happened and are no fans at all of Hamas.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390690#Comment_121390690

Hamas also need to be clear to the world on their future intent though- it works both ways - I see a lot of finger pointing at Israel and rightfully so over the last couple of weeks- but Hamas can’t go back to their terrorist ways either

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390726#Comment_121390726

If your bar for facts and “evidence” is “the poster may have seen” then that’s fine.

I have condemned the heinous, barbaric attack by Hamas many times. In a thread in which Palestinian numbers of dead are constantly questioned, dead Palestinian children are dismissed as “dolls” by both official IDF sources and posters here. Why are some claims which are clearly untrue accepted as fact, defended and if questioned, those questioning them labeled as Hamas supporters, conspiracy theorists etc?

Many claims have been made by the IDF and Israeli bombing apologists which have turned out to be completely false. The claim that there is a video of Hamas terrorists burning people to death is false. They may well have done so, but a poster claiming to have seen them doing so is not true.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390026#Comment_121390026

Palestinians in Gaza would be better off defending themselves against their so called leaders, Hamas, who couldn't care less about them.

How do Israelis, search people inside Gaza? How do they imprison people inside Gaza?

It's important to be accurate, not exaggerate. There are wrongs on both sides, but the terrorist attack on Oct 7th cannot be justified.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390866#Comment_121390866

The condemnations that had to be dragged out of you, always with reservations and whataboutery and ifs and buts and maybes?

Nope, you never trot this line of questioning out for claims of atrocities alleged against Israel, so the "bar of evidence" angle won't wash.

There is sufficient evidence to conclude that Hamas burned civilians, from the footage and other evidence available. Similarly, there is sufficient evidence to conclude they celebrated such acts.

That is the truth. Do you deny it?

So why muddy that with "just asking questions" about the ghoulish specifics of the atrocities and exactly what horrific acts were directly witnessed? Why someone would take such issue with the claim someone actually saw it plainly speaks to a different agenda.

And don't pretend this is done in some neutral stance, setting some bar for evidence, because it is just your posts defending Hamas in a way your posts never defend Israel.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390641#Comment_121390641

Don't have an issue with anything he said.

I have been saying the same thing since the start.

Hamas actions: Clear unequivocal evidence that they have committed war crimes. There is no reasonable doubt.

Israeli actions: Clouded by the principles of self-defence and the rules of war, mean that their actions need investigation before being adjudicated on. There is considerable doubt about whether they have committed war crimes.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390754#Comment_121390754

Or maybe the real problem is what makes me throw out these stereotypes?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390718#Comment_121390718

International law allows for just wars, there are principles. Responding to clear war crimes such as the actions of 7/10 by Hamas are allowed. If all of the hostages are released, and any bodies returned, there is no justification for Israel to prolong the war. They could try and use the objective of bringing those responsible to justice to continue actions, but I don't think that would be sufficient to meet the test of a just war. So yes, as I said from the start of this thread, if Hamas release the hostages and hand over those responsible for 7/10 to the ICC, there is absolutely no justification for Israel to continue attacking Gaza. If Hamas only release the hostages, that is enough in my opinion, but not sure that the Israelis would see it that way.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390742#Comment_121390742

It is not fanciful, releasing the hostages ends Israel's justifications. That is why the EU have called for the unconditional release of the hostages from the very start. They know that if the hostages are released, that they can make Israel stop.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390834#Comment_121390834

Regime change in Gaza and Israel will follow the ending of this war.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390690#Comment_121390690

It should be long evident to you that Israel has used the Oct 7th attacks by Hamas as a means to justify its genocidal intent.

It has killed hostages held by Hamas (and also Israeli citizens during its response on Oct 7th) and has repeatedly shown little or no interest in entertaining the offers for hostage exchanges that Hamas has proposed.

Israel has no justification for much of its actions over the last 6 weeks, full stop and if and when this does come to an end, it should face charges for its actions in the same way Hamas participants should be held accountable for theirs.

I have close to no expectation that this will happen with respect to Israel and that is of course something they've known all along. They are a rogue state which is carrying out a genocide.

nacho libre

The point about Boyd- Barrett equviocating in that debate is correct. I am not someone with an axe to grind against all things left wing, but it's a bit rich of him to call Ursula out for double standards, yet he can't give a simple yes or no answer to a straight forward question.

Hoboo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121383793#Comment_121383793

And there are others who throw the fog of October 7th over the decades of atrocities carried out by Israel. This didn’t start on October 7th, the most surprising thing is that anyone is surprised it happened.

Mass murdering civilians in revenge isn’t war either, it’s a holocaust.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390938#Comment_121390938

(1) Israel does not have genocidal intent, however, Hamas does, and you are willing to excuse that.

(2) There is no clear evidence that Israel have killed hostages held by Hamas, but even if there were, the onus under international law to protect the hostages and return them is on Hamas. A failure to do so would add to the lengthy list of Hamas war crimes, which you refuse to acknowledge.

(3) The unconditional release of the hostages is something that the EU have called for from the start, it is the only way for Hamas to redeem their war crime. Calling for hostage exchange is an endorsement of Hamas war crimes.

(4) There is a possibility that Israel have committed war crimes, that will need adjudication at the proper times, there is an absolute certainty that Hamas have committed war crimes. It appears that you are unable to comprehend the difference.

(5) Hamas lead a rogue state that launches terrorist attacks as seen on 7/10

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390897#Comment_121390897

I condemned Hamas, without reservation, without qualification, without equivocation, multiple times. So at least be honest.

You speak of muddying the waters. The claim was that a poster had seen a video, that no one else has ever claimed existed or to have claimed to have seen. That’s evidence enough for you. Fine.

The principle of what can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence only applies to posters you disagree with. Fine.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390938#Comment_121390938

I hope you’re equally strong in your view that Hamas too need to be held to equal account - it works both ways you know

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390961#Comment_121390961

You won't find a single post of mine excusing Hamas' behaviour. You know this, stop pretending I have done so. I have made posts saying that it is reasonable for Israel to pursue them in various ways including using Mossad to 'neutralise' its leaders. How much more acknowedlgement do you want from me beyond what I've said about Hamas's actions being horrific, and unacceptable?

There absolutely is clear evidence of Israel committing war crimes. But you can relax, they will not be held accountable. And Israel's PM shown a map at the UN of the 'new middle east region' with Palestine completely removed, he has since spoken of bibilical guidance to justify the killing of all Palestinians. These are facts.

I presume when you talk about the unconditional release of hostages, you are including the thousands of Palestinians held without charge in Israeli prisons?

I see Hamas as a terrorist organization, I have been clear about this since I first posted. You will have to construct a different strawman if you think you can challenge any support for them coming from my direction.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390971#Comment_121390971

See previous post. I don't need you to tell me how accountability works.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390938#Comment_121390938

If oct 7 happened here I would wish the purps to suffer greatly

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390991#Comment_121390991

There absolutely is clear evidence of Israel committing war crimes. 

You know.this how exactly?

Most people would wait until the investigators have done their job

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390919#Comment_121390919

Do Palestinians have the right to self defense under international law ?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390924#Comment_121390924

Pssible but that is solely up to the people of both to decide who they want, no one else. The right to self determination you see.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391017#Comment_121391017

Link

[p.225] Article 33 is derived from Article 50 of the Hague Regulations: "No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they can not be regarded as jointly and severally responsible".

Or maybe you can tell us how telling the entire population of an area to move, or turning off power/water/internet to them, or targeting water supply lines, bakeries etc doesn't constitute this.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390303#Comment_121390303

It might have helped your comprehension if you had actually bothered to read all of the article rather than the first line which mentioned another, now redacted study!

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391016#Comment_121391016

Who is saying otherwise?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391031#Comment_121391031

A factor not included in comparative studies of IQ tests is the actual exposure to doing the tests. Kids and adults in countries with regular standardised testing tend to score higher than those in countries that dont. One of the reasons Ireland are relatively low on the IQ tables is because we do relatively little standardised testing compared to other developed countries. In this scenario results tend lower as there is an element of learning how to take the test. There is obviously a limit to how much learning to take a test will improve the result.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390924#Comment_121390924

That would at least be something positive to come out of all the death and suffering.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391047#Comment_121391047

The problem with that is the actions were those of Hamas, the elected government of Gaza.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390962#Comment_121390962

Should be easy to find such posts then. I only recall ones couched in reservation and whataboutery or vagueness, without accepting their atrocities as a fact.

Similarly, should be easy to find the posts where you challenged with "dismissed without evidence" for an accusation against Israel. Because when you only bring it out for claims against Hamas, you can see why is creates the impression you are here as a Hamas defender and tacit supporter.

"At least be honest"? Those are your words not mine, so maybe take your own advice.

There is sufficient evidence to conclude that Hamas burned civilians, from the footage and other evidence available. Similarly, there is sufficient evidence to conclude they celebrated such acts.

Do you deny it?

You were asked that as a simple question in previous post and no answer was given.

So if you don't deny it - do you accept Hamas carried out such atrocities and do you condemn Hamas for it, without reservation, without ifs?

And if you accept it happened, why would you take such issue with the possibility that somewhere online such footage was actually seen?

And why does that seem to matter more to you than the fact of what Hamas actually did?

Given that we know Hamas carried out atrocities against civilians, and we know from body cam footage they recorded atrocities and shared them online before being taken down, and what has been shared in mainstream media is redacted.