Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

brickster69

Despite countless public claims that show Israel wishes to destroy Gaza, it is in fact Hamas who is committing genocide. Surely they must understand that this conflict has been going on for decades and did not start on the 7th of October

https://twitter.com/ShelleyGspan/status/1726709240772124778

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394626#Comment_121394626

I've literally listened to the words of Israel Ministers, leadership and military.

Judasim is not so special that it gets a 'get out of jail free card' called 'anti-Semitism' that it can use to absolve it of analysis or being held to account for its genocidal actions. What a ridiculous assumption that it does.

Please tell me how me accurately reporting what these people have said, and taking them at their word as to their intent, amounts to me targeting the Jewish fate. Or maybe you don't know what antiSemitism means.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394651#Comment_121394651

Breakthrough News would disagree with that.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394559#Comment_121394559

Are you suggesting the video is fake?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394680#Comment_121394680

No just that its no surprise the likes of you would be getting "news" from there. The views line up seamlessly.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394683#Comment_121394683

What is the 'likes of me'?

Someone appalled at the continue focused and deliberate target of 2.5M people after decades of subjugation resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands of them in a week?

Is that mindset so repugnant to you? But of course you targeting the poster is telling of how close to the bone the video cuts.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394305#Comment_121394305

I'm sure given your very strong opinions on the subject you must know the history of the region, so you must be aware that the map you posed is incorrect.

Why are you not acknowledging that it was Egypt, Jordan and Syria that invaded Arab Mandated Palestinian and Egypt and Jordan occupied and annexed Gaza and the West Bank respectively?

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that it was Jordan and Egypt that denied the Palestinian Arabs a homeland, not the Israelis.

I'm sure you know that in 1948 Israel had accepted the UN plan for the partition of Palestine.

I'm sure you know all about the Great Arab Revolt, Hussein bin Ali, the unified Arab State which the British promised to support and how artificial and recent the concept of ethno-nationalism is in the region.

So, again, why are posting what you must know are totally false maps?

brickster69

Flags going up.

https://twitter.com/MalkahFleisher/status/1726206430707871981

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394651#Comment_121394651

There has been quite a few posters supporting or defending Hamas over the course of the thread. Those who won't condemn them for their atrocities, the "just asking questions" brigade. Those who insinuate the entire operation was some sort of Israeli false flag operation. There were even some posts in the early stages of the thread with posts virtually cheering on Hamas, what's that phrase - sneaking regard, no doubt from those who were the sort to cheer on terrorism here.

If you think no one is supporting Hamas, you just haven't been paying attention to the thread.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394690#Comment_121394690

Cute, its almost like you dont want to admit their reporter Eugene Puryears comments, will you be able to admit to agreeing with him or just pretend not to know about them?

"And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters, and I'm sure they're doing very fine despite what the New York Post says".

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394674#Comment_121394674

Please post links to Israeli Ministers, leadership or Military saying that they intend to commit genocide, kill all Palestinian Arabs in Gaza or push out the Palestinian Arab population of Gaza. You'll also have to show me where they detail their plans for the 1.6 million Palestinian Arabs who are citizens of Israel, you know, the only ones who can be openly atheist or gay. If we're talking genocide then there must be a plan to kill all of those as well and since your opinion is based on what you have heard from Israeli Ministers, leadership and Military you've obviously heard them talking about their plan.

brickster69

Looks like a new script has been handed out lately. How many Israeli civilians have died since the 7th considering they are being annihalated

https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1726667082605949303

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394714#Comment_121394714

I've posted a video, the content speaks for itself. That is the focus, not whatever you are trying to imply or deflect to in some bizarre manner.

You doing so proves itself as to just how the messages in the video blow apart this BS Israeli narrative that all they care about is the hostages.

So, comment on that, or don't, I don't care. But I'm not going to be sidetracked in what ever manner you are attempting. It's quite laughable.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394718#Comment_121394718

I don't 'have to' do anything.

The links have been posted several times already. I'm not here to make your argument for you.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394723#Comment_121394723

So its the adorable word salad regurgitated so you can pretend your source hasn't praised Hamas "resistance" before.

Like I said, perfect source for you and your ilk.

Predictable.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394707#Comment_121394707

Explaining where Hamas has come from, and saying that you can understand how it has originated does not equate to supporting Hamas.

I've no doubt there's the odd outlier who has appeared in the thread and made a dramatic statement before being removed, or tottering off themselves. But there's plenty of us here for a long time advocating on behalf of the Palestinian people who are being butchered. Those are the accounts that are relevant in a discussion as prolonged and intense as this has been.

And I've no reason to look selectively at this, I'm perfectly comfortable with facing the reality of what is being posted were it to be posted, but I've never seen this support that I'm consistently told is happening frequently. And I've spent a lot of time here over the last several weeks.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394740#Comment_121394740

You made a statement that there are no Hamas supporters on the thread, this doesn't even begin to justify that claim. Then you even go and contradict yourself that there are Hamas supporters popping up!

You can't keep your story straight. It is a total falsehood.

If you think there's nobody on the thread supporting Hamas, you just haven't been paying attention. It can be more subtle than then obvious ones you allude to.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394707#Comment_121394707

Theres none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Its comical.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394694#Comment_121394694

Ah, now it's the 'maps are fake' nonsense.

These maps have been referenced in the thread nearly since its opened but now it's 'the maps are fake approach'?

Tell me, was Nethanyahu's map he presented at the UN fake as well? That only happened in September, so which is it, he was lying, or showing intent?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394654#Comment_121394654

Do you really not know what happened when Dev tried to let in boat loads of Jewish orphans fleeing Nazi Germany?

His actions, in the face of the Dail, public opinion and the Catholic Church, is why there is a forest named after him.

His support was unwavering. Not so much the rest of the country. Look up the text of the maiden speech of Oliver Flanagan in the Dail in 1943. Highlights include "There is one thing the Germans did and that was to rout the Jews out of their country" and "They crucified our Saviour 1900 years ago and they are crucifying us every day since". He had a long career, later serving as Minister for Defence. His voice was more in line with the broader public view.

Then read about the Pogroms in Limerick Pogroms in 1904. The only Irish political leaders to speak out against them were Michael Davit and John Redmond. The main instigator was Fr John Creagh who preached unbelievable bile and hatred towards the small number of Jewish refugees who had sought refuge in Limerick. He was backed strongly by the Irish Bishops.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394753#Comment_121394753

The Map you posted showing the Arab and Jewish Palestinian areas is nonsense. Did you now know that?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394746#Comment_121394746

Either name posters, or post links, or don't. do whatever you want.

Time and time and time again I see posts saying 'The Hamas supporters on the thread' but I genuinely can't recall seeing someone pointing out specifically within a post where it implies support for Hamas. It's always this vague 'hamas supporters in the thread'

I haven't even seen periodic Hamas supporters popping but I'm sure on a thread with 21K posts there have been some.

But this is like the old 'BLM protests are violent' when the arrest rate was something like 0.02% of people who attended protests or probably even smaller. Or like the 'the Palestine marches are hate marches' because theres a handful of hateful signs at a march of 100's of thousands of people.

Post links, name names, or don't. But stop pretending that you get to declare what is happening on the thread just because it is your say so.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394740#Comment_121394740

But you're only advocating for the Palestinian Arabs that are being killed, not the Palestinian Jews, the ones who were actually literally butchered. You only seem to be advocating for the Palestinian Arabs who have been killed by Israeli weapons, with no real energy expended to contextualise why and who put them in harms way.

You're also not explaining where Hamas has come from, not even close. You are regurgitating anti-Israeli rhetoric that in devoid of real historical context.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394746#Comment_121394746

You'll get more flip flop word salad as a rebuttal.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394718#Comment_121394718

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364383#Comment_121364383

Tbf, there is actually plenty of sources available for this online. I posted this a while ago but still relevant to your question. If it’s not sufficient let me know and I'm sure I could easily pull more out.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394694#Comment_121394694

Again, tbf even Reuters reported and showed pictures of BN showing that map.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-cusp-region-reshaping-peace-with-saudi-arabia-netanyahu-says-2023-09-22/

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394783#Comment_121394783

Eh, you are the one who stated there were no Hamas supporters on the thread. Then you destroyed your own argument by saying they were Hamas supporters on the thread. You can't keep your story straight. So now we get this "word salad".

Then you again destroy your own argument by posting this: "Stop pretending that you get to declare what is happening on the thread just because it is your say so."

Isn't that exactly what you have done? And can't even keep your story straight when doing so.

So your words rebound right back at you.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394753#Comment_121394753

The maps have always been fake.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394802#Comment_121394802

Okay, so you cannot post anything which shows it is the policy or objective of the Israeli Government or IDF to commit Genocide in Gaza.

There are plenty of crazy people in Israel and they have their own religious fundamentalists, most of them live in illegally occupied land in Gaza, who think they have a mandate from their God to commit mass murder. I don't think a scumbag like Netanyahu would have a problem with it but Israel is a democracy and that limits him and the nutters who keep him in power.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394820#Comment_121394820

That's the "New Middle East" map, not the nonsense one purporting to show historic Jewish and Arab areas in what the area that was Mandated Palestine from 1947 to 2010.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394753#Comment_121394753

Those maps have been questioned before. For example the one called "UN Plan 1947" is just that, a plan. In no way does it represent what was Jewish or Palestinian land in 1947.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394857#Comment_121394857

It would have if Egypt, Jordan and Syria hasn't invaded and annexed all of the land they could get that was meant to be part of a Palestinian Arab homeland.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394758#Comment_121394758

The oft cited Oliver J Flanagan speech. Flanagan was a moron who rode a bike with “here comes Oliver J Flanagan” on the front and “there goes Oliver J Flanagan” on the back at election time.

The Limerick “pogrom” was a vile anti semetic outburst but to call it a pogrom is hyperbole. No one died, no one was seriously injured. Those involved in stone throwing received harsh sentences and the priest you mentioned was Fr. Creagh rather than receiving strong church support as you say, was rebuked, censored and eventually exiled to the Pacific.

5 families left Limerick as a result of the “pogrom”.

It is also incorrect to claim only 2 politicians spoke out against these events. For example John Daly, the mayor of Limerick condemned them.

There are few countries in Europe with a less violent history with Jewish people than Ireland.

Even in England there were anti Jewish riots and “pogroms” even after the war, such as in Manchester in 1947.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394836#Comment_121394836

Realistically we both know that’s something that’s not going to be specifically in text. However be it ministers, IDF officials, senior officials what they say, and the fact they think they can say it and it’s acceptable. It’s been said when someone shows you who they are. Believe them. There’s enough examples: these are people voted in, by the people! Can you honestly say the Israeli government in power right now in good faith would like equitable terms and rights for Palestinians? (Caveating this by assume Hamas have been eliminated for discussion)

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394532#Comment_121394532

oh look what is happening over there! One doesn't excuse the other. Israelis celebrating the suffering of Palestinians and calling for incineration of Gaza should not be excused. Any equivocation from you and there is only one conclusion that can be drawn .

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394855#Comment_121394855

Can you link the map? And a source to debunk it so I look into it further. Must have missed it

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394918#Comment_121394918

I think that Netanyahu is a contemptable lowlife who should be in prison for corruption. I think it is to the shame of the Israeli people that they elected him into power. I have posted here already that Hamas and Netanyahu have the common objective of removing the possibility of a two state solution.

None of that means Israel plans to or will commit Genocide. If that was there objective there would be hundreds of thousands of dead Gazans by now.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394784#Comment_121394784

I have said since I first posted on this thread that the events of Oct 7th were terrorist acts and they were horrific and that Hamas leaders should be targeted through the use of Mossad and the Hamas organisation should be targeted through sanctions on its funders. I'm on the record several times for stating such.

I refuse to accept though that it was solely the events of Oct 7th that has put Palestinian civilians in harms way, they have been targeted and killed probably at a rate of 10:1 for every Israeli over the last 70 years and aside from that have lived lives curtailed almost entirely at the whim of the Israel government and military.

There's one pro poster in particular on here who posts repeatedly and consistently that the only element of relevance here is the Israeli hostages. He refuses to acknowledge that there are Palestinians held hostage (at a rate of probably 10 for every Israeli), so why don't you ask them about your concerns of partisan focus.

Sir_Name

I understand what you’re saying and I partially agree. However I find they methods in which they are using to eliminate Hamas abhorrent and essentially collective punishment. Whether or not it’s in official policy, in my view the withholding of aid, water, fuel, food, forced movement etc is a genocidal attack/ethnic cleansing. It remains to be seen if the international court of law will agree only time will tell but the fact it’s being debated across channels, governments tells me I’m not alone in that view either.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394746#Comment_121394746

Evidence of Hamas supporters in thread please.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394746#Comment_121394746

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394793#Comment_121394793

Is this what you guys are reduced to? Me suggesting that in a very heavy traffic thread of 20K posts that there have probably been some isolated posters who dropped in and posted in favour of Hamas. Note, I said probably, I haven't even seen this but the law of averages would suggest it is likely to have happened.

And this is what you are pinning your arguments on? No evidence to present yourselves but using my words suggesting a possible occurrence as some how evidence that the thread is rife with this.

If what you are talking about was occurring you'd be linking posts or naming posters but you've done nothing of the sort.

This is embarrassing. Or at least it should be if you were being objective.

Now, this attempted redirect of all of you came about after I posted a number of posts last night that showed video evidence of An Israeli politician advocating the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza, an Israeli PM advocating for a new Middle East at the UN with Palestine removed entirely and Israeli civilians and military personnel speaking of their desire to destroy everything that exists in Gaza, all its people and to occupy what remains.

I posted this after a pro-Israel contributor here said repeatedly that they should finish their mission but wouldn't suggest what that mission was. So I showed him.

So accept the evidence of genocidal intent that is displayed from several Israeli angles or counter with how all of this evidence should be ignored. Or if you want to talk about evidence of Hamas supporters, challenge such supporters when (if) they appear.

You've all proven more this morning your ambivalence, if not tacit support (or more) for the genocide of a nation of people than we've seen on here in quite a while (well, maybe just since the display of racism we saw yesterday).

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395022#Comment_121395022

I find the methods they are using disgraceful and, worse, counterproductive. I think the use of language is important, especially when discussing such as emotive topic. That's why I find talk of genocide so disturbing, it polarises the sides even further.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395049#Comment_121395049

I listed multiple examples of the type of Hamas supporting that is going on - recopied below.

The poster I was discussing it with even acknowledged that there are Hamas supporters on the thread.

There has been quite a few posters supporting or defending Hamas over the course of the thread. Those who won't condemn them for their atrocities, the "just asking questions" brigade. Those who insinuate the entire operation was some sort of Israeli false flag operation. There were even some posts in the early stages of the thread with posts virtually cheering on Hamas, what's that phrase - sneaking regard, no doubt from those who were the sort to cheer on terrorism here.

If you think no one is supporting Hamas, you just haven't been paying attention to the thread.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395056#Comment_121395056

Eh you made a declaration that there were no Hamas supporters.

Then you posted this: I've no doubt there's the odd outlier who has appeared in the thread and made a dramatic statement before being removed, or tottering off themselves. 

You can post paragraph and paragraph of whataboutery and deflection, but you have already destroyed your own argument and stated that there are Hamas supporters on the thread.

Strazdas

I see the well known Auschwitz Memorial page on Twitter has run into major trouble for posting a lengthy tweet essentially fully endorsing Israel's military actions in Gaza and barely even mentioning the plight of innocent Gazan civilians - people who have been following the page for years saying they are shocked by their stance.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395073#Comment_121395073

Keep with that angle. Everyone else can see it for the BS it is. All you're doing is proving the absence of evidence to prove your point.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394987#Comment_121394987

I agree that the Hamas attacks didn't happen in a vacuum. I have a big problem with the narrative which frames this as a conflict which originates with or is sustained by Israel. There are multiple players in this, as there always has been. The Palestinian Arabs are a tool of their Arab neighbours, which those neighbours have used in various ways over generations with callous disregard for their Arab brothers and sisters to attack Israel, America and each other. Any discussion about peace and war, conflict or settlement, cause and motive, which does not include the broader regional players is at best ignorant and most probably disingenuous. That's why I find myself advocating for Israel here. Not because I support their government or their policies in Gaza and the West Bank, on the contrary I most certainly don't, but because the popular narrative around this conflict is constructed on the false premise that Israel is the root cause and a solution is within their gift.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395092#Comment_121395092

I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by this stance?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395097#Comment_121395097

I'm reminded of the words of the late and great journalist Robert Fisk. An expert on the region.

When asked about impartiality and bias, he said that he 'was biased on the side of the oppressed'.

The conflict, like most conflicts, is not something physical as such that we can apply hard rules to or treat like a science experiment where there is a definitive outcome that we can use to determine cause and effect etc.

The Jewish people have a terrible history of being persecuted, or maybe I should say people of Jewish faith since the term 'Jewish people' seems to have been hijacked by Zionists, and at a local and individual level worldwide are probably terrified of being targeted again to various degrees. And any such acts should be denounced, and perpetrators identified and prosecuted or handled appropriately. There is no confusion about this. I posted a link at the weekend showing Nazis marching in Wisconsin and I said how dangerous that is and a sign of very bad things.

But the Palestinian community is, and has been persecuted on a macro level for generations, and they are the ones being killed or literally having their lives destroyed in their tens of thousands at the hands of a state led by extremists, intent in their obliteration. And while some will immediately respond with claims that that is what Hamas says of Israel, Hamas, according to Israel has 40,000 members, It has no army, navy, airforce, equipment or funding that is even a fraction of what Israel has. With the might of the US supporting Israel also.

There are many Israeli's and Jewish people calling for a ceasefire, but these are unfortunately not in power in the Knesset. What is, is carrying out genocide, not saying they want to while not having the means to even think about it.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395060#Comment_121395060

Thank you. You are right. Language is important. We see language used as a tool here even for misinterpretation even if the language questioned was initially used incorrectly. That may even be on purpose. We see it with Israeli ministers and I’ve discussed previously how I would hold them to a higher standard that Hamas. Counter productive is exactly what I feel. I genuinely don’t believe this will eliminate Hamas forever. Another fraction may emerge. I do call for innocent Israeli hostages to be released. I also call for a ceasefire. I also call for innocent Palestinian hostages to be released. For settlements to be disbanded. The list goes on. At some stage there will be talks. When that will be whose knows. But hopefully they the talks going on now regarding hostages will lead to fruition and further advancements. Ultimately no peace will happen without Hamas or what’s left of them, Israeli government and PA and all others come to the table. As per usual right now it’s innocents on both sides who are suffering.