Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395828#Comment_121395828

He is a comedian and satirist first and foremost. He produces home made satirical videos on his social media channels all year round on all sorts of topics that are in the news currently (not just Israel) subjects like Brexit, Northern Ireland, Covid-19, class differences etc. Are satirists normally challenged on what angle they take with their satire? I would have thought the whole point of satire is to adopt a very specific position on a particular topic and to mock the thing they are satirising. That being the case, people are totally free to disagree with the satire and not find it funny.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396118#Comment_121396118

On social media I see partisan posts on this topic, no pretence of comedy or satire.

I'm not aware of any requirement for satire that only one particular position on a topic must be mocked. Within the context of one particular piece - yes. But not across all output from same source.

It is obvious the satire is not being done in the name of comedy first, but to serve his political beliefs.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396003#Comment_121396003

As of 26 October since 7 October 2023, following numbers had increased on Palestinian side since then.

30 Israel minor died, names photos and age shared by haaretz Israel news

Baby (0–4) 1

Kid (5–9) 6

Child (10–14) 11

Teenage (15–17) 12

2913 Palestine minor killed by Israeli army, names age and ID numbers shared by Palestinian health ministry

Baby (0–4) 775

Kid (5–9) 778

Child (10–14) 724

Teenage (15–17) 388

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395892#Comment_121395892

If the UN is saying that it is an unparalleled loss of civilian life in modern times then they must have a very short memory.

They are in Yemen where the civilian death toll is far higher.

They are in Ethiopia where the civilian death toll was far higher.

They are in Sudan where the civilian death toll is far higher.

They weren't in Rwanda, where the civilian death toll was over three quarters of a million. Their incompetence in the management of the aftermath of that actual attempted genocide led in no small part to the Congolese war which killed over 5 million people.

Is the UN really saying that? Seriously? Unparalleled in modern times. Are they taking the piss?

The Iranian Army is well trained, well equipped and actually ruthless. As are many others around the world. The Indonesian army, the one that has actually carried out a genocide and is actively attempting to carry out another one as we speak, is also well trained, well equipped and is actually ruthless. Are they all Nazis as well?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396224#Comment_121396224

It is not a numbers game. Not going to get involved in whataboutery.

I'm talking about the Hamas defenders who show their true colours in refusing to condemn them for the deliberate targeted murder of Israeli babies and children on October 7th.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395629#Comment_121395629

With all due respect, I did not enact godwins law. You did. It was you not I brought nazi into this conversation. When I mentioned why people might feel there is a correlation I said Jewish history. I didn’t say nazi. You’re trying to put a square peg into a round hole. I have been very clear as to why I believe there are legitimate questions. Ones which need answering. I imagine Israel feel that way too to see what failed security wise on the 7th and what can be done to ensure it will never happen again.

You mentioned people who are picking apart what Israel is doing and not what other countries are doing is anti semite. This is a thread about Hamas/Palestine and Israel. It’s a discussion forum. When posters mentioned comparisons to IRA very early on in the thread they were lambasted for not comparing like with like. There is a long history there. Its foolish for the point of discussion to pretend there’s not.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396266#Comment_121396266

I might have known you wouldn’t be interested in facts.

You are all for condemnation but have you condemned the killing of thousands of Palestinian children?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396272#Comment_121396272

Are you denying there are posts on the thread who compared Jews to Nazis? I didn't bring it into the conversation. I'm pointing out how it is anti-semitic. You are the one who jumped in challenging it, creating the impression you think it is a valid comparison to deploy.

It is a thread about Hamas\Palestine and Israel, but when hatred is directed at Israel it is entirely valid to question why it is directed at Israel when similar conduct elsewhere does not generate such hate. Or when countries actually engaged in worse conduct start pontificating about the conflict, it is entirely valid to point it out. It is not whataboutery. There is something about the level of hate and scrutiny of Israel that requires explanation and that can only be done with reference to their history and other conflicts.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396211#Comment_121396211

Well, I do know he also makes lots of satirical videos. I don't follow him on any channel, but I imagine they're up on the likes of YouTube or TikTok.

Clearly, he's coming at these topics such as Brexit, Northern Ireland and Israel as a 'left wing Irish nationalist', he's hardly making any secret of it....he's definitely not claiming to be neutral. I don't know his politics, but one assumes he would be a Sinn Fein or People Before Profit supporter.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396245#Comment_121396245

Do you not follow the news? Well reported today.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143772

Is that official enough for you? Sufficient evidence?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396036#Comment_121396036

Keep that energy next time you're talking about the deep state and antifa/Far left etc etc etc.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396292#Comment_121396292

I get that if references are made to another separate conflict that that can be referred to as whataboutery but even referring to civilian casualties on both sides seems to be called whataboutery by the diehard supporters of Israel's action since the attack. I dont think they want to read about kids being blown to pieces.

I think it is right to call out Hamas supporters but to have every post talking about antisemitism is a bit obsessive.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396292#Comment_121396292

Nope, not playing the whatabout \ numbers game. As other posters have argued, the Hamas attacks on civilians on 7th are unquestionably war crimes. Israel has the right to defend itself and respond to such attacks, and in hitting back against Hamas, the culpability for civilian deaths is very much in question between Hamas and Israel. Given how Hamas bases itself and uses civilian areas to launch attacks, does not wear uniforms, and uses the civilian population to conceal its terrorist activities.

You are in no position to request that when you have multiple times now refused to condemn Hamas for their atrocities against Israeli civilians, including children, on October 7th. Phrasings vaguely referencing 'civilians killed in the attacks' does not amount to the same thing.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396245#Comment_121396245

Yemen, Sudan, Ethiopia are all conflicts (and there are more) that have grater death tolls but the death toll in Gaza has been reached in a matter of weeks. That is the significant part here.

If you can't grasp that or think the UN would be making misleading statements to the point that they were 'taking the piss' then, I don't know what to tell you.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396327#Comment_121396327

Wow, what a complete idiot. Is he not aware of all of the other larger conflicts that the UN have failed to address since 2017?

Does he not know about, since he took over, the more than 200,000 dead in Ethiopia, the more than 100,000 dead in Yemen, the 20,000 or so dead in Maghreb, the Drug wars in Mexico, the Gang wars in Haiti, the conflicts in Myanmar, Nigeria, Burkina Faso and Somalia, or the invasion of Ukraine?

Or maybe he's not stupid, maybe, like so many here, he's just really selective about who he's critical of and is willing to spew nonsensical hyperbole because of an undefined reason that he doesn't like Israel.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396003#Comment_121396003

For the love of God, don't be so obtuse.

We were told that 40 babies were beheaded, then that it couldn't be confirmed, then that maybe they hadn't been beheaded, but had died, then that the number was smaller. That was simply my point, that there was ambiguity around the events.

Any outrage you feel about the deaths of Israeli babies, should be magnified with respect to the deaths on the Palestinian side given the vastly greater numbers.

That's it. This continued justification of Israels actions because of X number of lives tragically taken deserves to be questioned given the (X times Y) numbers of lives tragically taken on the Palestinian side.

The refusal to see this is what infuriates a lot of observers (including Hickey I imagine) because it implies that some lives are more valuable than others.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396118#Comment_121396118

"He is a comedian and satirist first and foremost", That's both the most generous and most inaccurate thing anyone's said on this thread so far. I think "Joker", in the pejorative sense, is a more apt description. "Clown" would also suffice.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396449#Comment_121396449

Google Definition

satire the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.

He mightn't be your cup of tea, but what he does fits the literal textbook definition of the word.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396430#Comment_121396430

Not this again. We weren't told that 40 babies were beheaded. The report said that 40 babies/children were killed, and some were beheaded. That people are trying to use the fact that not exactly 40 babies were beheaded to downplay and write off what Hamas did is disgusting.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396486#Comment_121396486

The number that you say was "not exactly 40" is zero.

It would however be a pretty conservative estimate to say that more than 40 innocent Palestinian babies have been beheaded by Israeli bombs, given that most Palestinian children have resorted to writing their names on their limbs for identification purposes because having their bodies ripped apart by the IDF is so commonplace.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396430#Comment_121396430

Don't be so obtuse - take your own advice. So far, he seems like terrorist apologist rolling out the just asking questions schtick to mask that he is a Hamas supporter. Pay attention to what is not said as well as what is said.

There is a world of difference between a Hamas terrorist deliberately going around targeting and executing civilians on October 7th, and deaths of civilians when Israel attempts to strike back against Hamas sites in civilian areas. It is constantly debated on this thread, the degree to which culpability attaches to Hamas or Israel for those deaths.

But sure, come back to me when you find him in his role 'as an observer' subjecting Hamas and accusations against Israel to the same scrutiny, when he unequivocally condemns Hamas for the babies and children they did deliberately slaughter on October 7th. And I'll withdraw that.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396486#Comment_121396486

They, and me, are trying to point out that if dead babies repulses you, the vastly greater number of dead babies on the Palestinian side should mean that at the very least you acknowledging that there is greater loss to that community.

I want to say nobody is downplaying what Hamas is doing but some pedant will say "Oh but you said someone probably did downplay it maybe possibly 5 weeks ago and therefore everything you say is a lie" so let me try to put it this way. The death of any baby/child/innocent at any time is a tragedy, that the deaths often come about at the hands of others is horrific, but pointing out that the details of the attack has changed repeatedly does not equate to supporting or downplaying what Hamas did.

I know that on this thread, I was told by a very pro-Israel poster that the manner of the childrens death was significant as to how Israel responded, so then, when it turns out that what was said to have occurred had not occurred in the manner in which it was said, does it not follow through that the response of Israel can therefore be questioned? All without saying that someone is supporting or downplaying Hamas?

And this isn't a pissing contest to see which community suffered more, those of us calling for a ceasefire are motivated in trying to advocate so that other children (and adults) don't die or have their lives destroyed. It's a messed up world when calling for peace has people accusing you of supporting terrorism.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396539#Comment_121396539

Again with the 'condemn Hamas' BS. Why is it that that is something everyone who is appalled at Israels actions has to declare before being allowed to have an opinion? Do you condemn Israel?

This conflict has taken off the veil of Zionism and how it exploits the suffering of its own community to stifle opposition to its genocidal intent.

In the eyes of some, anyone asking Israel to stop butchering tens of thousands is a terrorist apologist. So be it, each of us has to satisfy our own conscience as to how we felt about the needless death of others Israeli or Palestine or anywhere else.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396552#Comment_121396552

Merely blaming Israel for the dead babies in Gaza is downplaying what Hamas is doing. Israel certainly have some culpability but the overwhelming blame lies with Hamas.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396569#Comment_121396569

"the veil of Zionism". Are you saying that Zionism as an ideology permits the killing of children? If not then what exactly do you mean by that comment?

Israel is not butchering anyone. That involves killing someone like you would livestock. That's what Hamas did. Literally.

Israel is guilty of a disregard for the human shield that Hamas terrorists use to protect themselves. That's wrong and should stop but it is Hamas who have caused all of this and it is Hamas who could stop it in an instant.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396569#Comment_121396569

You seem to have lost track of the discussion.

The point is that when they don't condemn Hamas for atrocities, when they don't ask Hamas to stop attacking Israel from civilian sites or ask Hamas to release the hostages - but only ever ask questions about Israel's conduct they out themselves as terrorist apologists and Hamas supporters and defenders. Sure they can carry on like that, and when they do so they will correctly be called out as such. They can have that opinion and they can be right labelled terrorist apologists. Because that is what they are.

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395580#Comment_121395580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396397#Comment_121396397

Tbf he has mentioned this at least twice in the last day. He has explicitly stated he condemns them. Honestly, it’s like you’re never satisfied or are blinded by your own rage you skip over posts. What do you want him to say? Brutalised? Murder? Extinguish? They all mean the same thing?

And honestly you mention when these questions are only asked of one side. I don’t think I’ve seen you, and correct me if I’m wrong, condemn Israel for any of their wrongdoings before or after Oct 7th.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396620#Comment_121396620

Nope. Read exactly what was posted, and read what was asked. They are not the same thing. Atrocity and killing are not the same thing. Murder and killing are not the same thing.

The vague phrasing "in which civilians were killed" - this doesn't actually assign any culpability to Hamas for the deaths of the civilians. It doesn't assign any culpability to Hamas with regard to deliberately targeting and murdering civilians.

So - your own advice - go back and read the posts. Don't skip over them.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396611#Comment_121396611

"the veil of Zionism". Are you saying that Zionism as an ideology permits the killing of children? If not then what exactly do you mean by that comment?

The veil of Zionism = the prioritizing the creation of and operation of a Jewish state irrespective of the impact it has on other countries/religions/races/cultures. It includes using the past suffering of the Jewish people to shut down objective analysis and justified criticisms of modern day actions irrespective of how warranted they are.

Israel is absolutely butchering people. An appropriate term given that their representatives referred to Palestinians as human animals.

It is absolutely not Hamas who have caused all of this. Israel has been killing Palestinians for decades, before even the foundation of Hamas. Hamas does not exist in the West Bank and yet Israel has killed over 200 Palestinians there in the last number of weeks.

Hamas are guilty of carrying out horrific terrorist attacks. There are a participant in this, not the sole aggressor. Not by any stretch.

Sir_Name

You’re entitled to that view. I obviously as I asked didn’t read it into it the same way.

Same way I’d appreciate you answering this. I don’t think I’ve seen you, and correct me if I’m wrong, condemn Israel for any of their wrongdoings before or after Oct 7th.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396614#Comment_121396614

How do you know he didn't condemn Hamas, has he refused to do so?

The attacks happened 6 weeks ago, his satirical videos that started this discussion came out in the last ten days or so. It's just an easy and repeated angle taken by everyone from Anderson Cooper to Jesse Waters, to Pierce Morgan, to Tony Connolly and so on that as soon as someone says that Israel are acting disproportionally or excessively or whatever the response is 'Do you condemn Hamas'. What that question is doing, is telling people that the person asking it does not condemn Israel.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396211#Comment_121396211

Well, he's not on TV or radio or writing for a national newspaper, therefore there's no obligation on him to show 'balance' or to satirise both parties to the conflict.

In fact, I don't think RTE or the BBC would even allow any satirist to produce satirical content about what's happening in Israel / Gaza at the moment. It would be considered too sensitive a topic for mainstream TV.

Sir_Name

I haven’t finished listening to this yet however about a third of the way in and it’s quite interesting and things to read more about.

https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1726948242531782961?s=46&t=nCkpkIOG7qw2lW1upKk_bw

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396589#Comment_121396589

I categorically, unequivocally, absolutely compeletely disagree.

Israel is absolutely responsible for the bombs that it drops.

This is the veil of Zionism I was referring to. Israel does not get to absolve itself of its own actions when it is clearly and repeatedly targeting civilian locations just because some of its citizens were killed in a horrific attack.

Tell me how

Israeli views on Gaza

These people are genocidal.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396666#Comment_121396666

Nine times out of ten when such a wording is used, it is done deliberately, rather than carelessly. I have seen such phrasings elsewhere on this forum, and in short order it becomes clear why it was worded that way, as a way of weakening what was actually said but pulling the wool over the eyes of casual readers.

"Any" of their wrong doings? Ever? That is very vague. I have not jumped in defending Israel against "any" and "all" of their "wrongdoings". On the subject of civilian casualties in Gaza in the current conflict, there is considerable debate on culpability between Hamas - in basing itself in civilian areas - and Israel, in targeting Hamas in those areas.

Before October 7th, Israel was normalising relations with other powers in the region. The major obstacle to peace and progress is Hamas, who instead of focusing on protecting and improving the lives of Palestinians, have embraced conflict with Israel.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396641#Comment_121396641

Are you saying that all people who refer to themselves as Zionists hold such views and condone such actions?

We have nutters and extremists in our Parliament too. Soon we'll be ruled by people who still celebrate and erect plaques to child killers. That doesn't mean all of our Parliament agrees with them it is not reasonable to say we are butchers either.

Israeli Palestinians have been killing Arab Palestinians for decades and vies versa. Iran and Syria have been using Palestinian Arabs as proxies for their war on Israel for decades. Israel has never carried out the sort of mass murder of civilians that Hamas has done, in fact the last time Arab Muslims were killed at that scale was in Lebanon in 1982 and it was Christians that did it.

I do agree that Hamas are not the sole aggressors in this. That title goes to Iran, or Hezbollah, or maybe Qatar. Israel is certainly in the mix too but anyone who thinks this is a conflict between the Palestinian Arabs and Israel is a fool.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396668#Comment_121396668

How do you know he has?

I have repeatedly couched my language with caveats that it is based on what I have read, and that I withdraw my remarks if such comments were made and are still stood over. I have tried to state it conditionally, laying out the criteria under which I made the accusation.

A quick google suggests I am on the right track... we have a full blown Hamas supporter and terrorist apologist here:

Irish "comedian" Tadhg Hickey says that he doesn't condone Hamas but describes their actions as those of legitimate "freedom fighters".

Do you think the Hamas atrocities on October 7th were those of legitimate freedom fighters?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396696#Comment_121396696

They are targeting locations where they think Hamas operatives, rockets or infrastructure is located. Hamas are locating those assets in populated areas precisely so as to maximise the death toll of their own people.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396611#Comment_121396611

'im going to keep on shooting you despite the fact you are behind a human shield and it's your fault if i hit the human shield.'

you know, in every analogous real life situation that would be an absurd twist of logic. it's like driving in a straight line and expecting the world to get out of the way.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396702#Comment_121396702

I haven't read the article or the context but, as I have said previously, there is no shortage of nutters in Israel and the fundamentalist Jewish settlers are as extreme as Hamas.

Sir_Name

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-israel-hamas-hostage-deal-closer-than-before-2023-11-21/

Apparently a cabinet meeting this evening so imagine a vote on this. Helpfully agreed to hostages can be released.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396749#Comment_121396749

'I'm going to keep on shooting you, while you continue to shoot at me and hold members of my family hostage, despite the fact you are using a member of your own family as a human shield and it's your fault if I hit the human shield.'

I think that's a more apt analogy.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396687#Comment_121396687

I didn't say there was an obligation to show balance. I said that when his satire is only directed at one set of targets, taken in conjunction with his other public comments on the topic, it is reasonable and legitimate to call him out as a terrorist apologist and Hamas supporter. It is not being done just in the name of comedy, of what gets the best laughs. It is serving political ends. And therefore he cannot hide behind the shield of satire \ comedy as a defence. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396721#Comment_121396721

Normalizing relations by annexing/settling more land and displacing hundreds of people who lived on it for generations than they had done in the 40 previous years combined?

There are very few places in gaza, that are not civilian places. It is one of the most densely populated parts of the world. 2 million people in an area half the size of Louth

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396802#Comment_121396802

They were normalising relations with other Arab powers in the region. This is publicly documented, and the current conflict has put that on hold.

The settlements need to be curtailed, that needs to be on the table.

They are launching attacks from high density civilian locations, to what end? Sometimes apparently hitting their own civilians.

It is documented they have launched attacks at Israel from schools, to what end?

Does that show any regard for the lives of Palestinians?

They have bases under hospitals. They hide in refugee camps. They wear no uniform.

Does that show any regard for the lives of Palestinians?

And you're going to try to defend those war crimes by saying Gaza is densely populated? Come off it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396539#Comment_121396539

"There is a world of difference between a Hamas terrorist deliberately going around targeting and executing civilians on October 7th, and deaths of civilians when Israel attempts to strike back against Hamas sites in civilian areas."

And therein lies what you really think - your bias.

Let's be clear - there is no equivalence between these abominable acts. On the one hand, we have a group of religious fundamentalists widely considered as a terrorist organisation committing acts of atrocity.

On the other, you have a state, a heavily armed state, a military apparatus bent of delivering death and destruction on a defenceless civilian population hemmed into a small area. Who knows what their rationale is - maybe if we kill 100 civilians we might get one terrorist.

It's sick and it's depraved and it's indefensible what the state of Israel is engaged in.

Ulixes

Imagine you're a farmer and you have a neighbouring farmer with whom you have a land dispute. You hate each other and have been smashing each others stuff for years. You've been killing each other's animals and doing all sorts of nasty stuff. You've done your fair share to make the problem worse over the years but at the moment things are calm. Your other neighbours don't really like you either but and you're about to reach an agreement with those neighbouring farms to normalise things with them.

The fist neighbour really doesn't like that so one day he comes into your house, smashes the place up, kills some of your children and kidnaps a few more.

You get your gun and you chase after him, right back to his own home. You smash in, looking for your children. You set fire to the place to try to flush him out. You don't care if his children are upstairs and might burn. When you find him he grabs one of his own children and used them as a human shield while shooting at you. If you leave there's a high probability you'll never see your kidnapped children again.

Your name is Israel. What do you do?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396387#Comment_121396387

When did I ever talk about the Deep State and go on about AntiFa?

You ignored my entire argument.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396692#Comment_121396692

I don't think anyone responded to your post Sir_Name so i thought it was well worth repeating it, considering all these statements of intent to commit genocide are publicly on the record.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1726948242531782961