Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399676#Comment_121399676

And Shell own the majority of the drilling rights. That's British registers, headquartered and run Shell.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399586#Comment_121399586

Ah yes, so instead of actually elaborating on your strange comparison of various genocides (is this justification? It'll be more like the Rohingya rather than Tutsi) then claims that because there's no Jews involved in those although I'm not sure how accurate that is considering the US, including Kissinger at least were happy to ignore the atrocities perputrated by the Khmer Rouge, "You should tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs but we won't let that stand in our way." https://gsp.yale.edu/case-studies/cambodian-genocide-program/us-involvement/united-states-policy-khmer-rouge-regime-1975

You decided to be condecending instead. Well done you.

Regardless, Kissinger, just like Israel, do not present for all Jews and any suggestion that people questioning and disputing the actions of Israel are doing so because the majority of those in power in Israel are Jewish is crude reductionism designed to stifle debate.

Tell me this, was the Bosnian genocide a genocide? Is that something you agree with? People killed en-masse, forcibly displaced and homes destroyed? 80,000 Bosniaks were killed during that, out of a population of 1,760,000 Bosniaks which is rougly 4.5% of their population and almost the entirety of the population displaced. That took place over 3 years.

As it currently stands, estimates in Gaza are over 75% of the population displaced, probably around 15,000 killed, most likely more once the rubble is cleared. That is 0.7% of their population killed in the space of about 6 and a half weeks. Following that week on week growth (we know this won't be the case with increasing risk of water bourne diseaes, starvation etc it will almost be parabolic within the next few weeks if nothing changes) after 3 years it would hit 15% of the Gazan population.

This is in the realms of hypothetical but the current rate of destruction, killing and displacement is on the path to genocide, just like your previous examples.

This has nothing to do with people being anti-semitic, anti-Jew or some other conspiracy and everything to do with watching a western aligned nation, one that people in the west would traditionally view as an ally, carrying out collective punishment after years of oppression and subjugation.

Were Hamas justified in what they done? No, of course not. Maybe people should consider the why behind it rather than being reactionaries. Questioning people not complaining about other atrocities is a non-arguement. Why are you posting in this thread and not posting about all these things? What is it about this situation you care so much about to be in here every day?

So you can take your condescension and take a long walk.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399675#Comment_121399675

The Marshall plan, or UN food programs have nothing to do with the tweet I posted, or the comment I made in respect of that.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399758#Comment_121399758

That poster has categorically stated, several times, that Israel should continue its actions until its mission is completed.

They are condoning rather than condemning when it comes to Israel.

It's only the Arabs that are terrorists and who need to be identified as such.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399659#Comment_121399659

You deny that Israeli officials are advocating Ethnic Cleansing? I would hold the individuals and the government that they represent as responsible for their Ethnic Cleaning / borderline genocidal ideology regardless of their religion. History does not excuse bad behaviour.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399747#Comment_121399747

Are you denying there is anti-semitism behind some of the attacks, current and previous, on Israel and language used towards them?

How many of those countries were subjected to the kind of attacks Israel had been enduring from Hamas?

So "heap of bullshit" - right back at you.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399659#Comment_121399659

Nonsense. All of it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399791#Comment_121399791

Ethnic cleansing is not the policy of Israel, whatever dog whistling signals some officials are giving out, perhaps in large part messages intended for consumption by their enemies and not. The bark and bite are not the same.

Nor is merely 'ethnic cleasning' the reason why Nazis have gone down in history for what they did and attempted to do to Jews.

Either you are ignorant of the numerous such previous examples of ethnic cleaning or you deliberately skipped over them and chose the Nazi insult to cause maximum insult to Jews.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399781#Comment_121399781

I wonder what his views are on the Der Yassin Massacre? Or the terrorism of Lehi in general. Is it not terrorism when it's the side you support ?

riffmongous

Truce to begin at 10:00am tomorrow for 4 days if all goes well and then there is the potential for daily extensions in return for more releases.

Does anyone know how many of the hostages are soldiers?

batman75

Look up Stuart Seldowitz on X or youtube. Just not sure how to do a link on here. Basically he is harassing a street stall operator. The encounter is astonishing. The street vendor shows remarkable restraint. What is chilling is that this guy was a state department official in the US government on middle east affairs across a number of administrations.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399809#Comment_121399809

Reading comprehension and / or critical thinking seems to be an issue. Calling Israeli officials out for behaving like and using language like 1930s Germany does not say they are the same but are taking a similar path. They have a choice though and would expect they wont go anywhere near all the way down that path. But they are undeniably on the path.

Also, you say its dog whistles from some officials and not the policy of Israel. The actions over the past 6 weeks say otherwise. They say "we will turn gaza in a deserted island" and proceed to start levelling the place.

Also, the claim is Israel is an open liberal democracy. As such they should be accountable to the norms of civilised society, so forgive me for holding them to those standards.

circadian

https://twitter.com/bbcpress/status/1726973252839354667

Madness.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399795#Comment_121399795

But of a disingenuous response, you went from 'a major reason people are talking' to 'some of the attacks on israel'.. of course that's the point isn't it, to try silence any talk of israel as being anti Semitic

And no I don't deny that 'some' are anti-Semitic, there are definitely anti Semites out there, and trying to paint anyone who is critical of killing and ethnic cleansing as being as bad as them is despicable

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399821#Comment_121399821

Hopefully water and aid will be the priority as there is a massive problem with santitation, clean water, medical supplies and food. Just because the bombing may stop for a while doesn't negate the effects of a full on siege.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399769#Comment_121399769

Okay, so you did understand my post. See, that wasn't hard.

It seems that you are interested in bad things done by America and her allies. It sounds like you're having the same conversations I heard by son have with his friends when he was in transition year.

The Bosnian Genocide was a genocide. Thankfully the Americans stopped it. I was young at the time but the fact that the Americans had to step in to save one of the oldest indigenous Muslim populations in Europe and the powerlessness of the EU wasn't lost on me. So far the Palestinian Arab population of Gaza is internally displaced. It remains to be seen if the extremists in Israel get their way and it becomes an ethnic cleansing. What's happening in the West Bank, now that is ethnic cleansing.

I'm aware of the other genocides and conflicts going on in the world as we speak. I'm as concerned about them as I am about what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank. I like to know, in as much as I can to the limits of my time and my intellect, what the root causes are. I find the narrative around this conflict as incomplete and immature as a bunch of 14 year old socialists. The chief narrators are bombastic blowhards like Mickey D and his ilk of rich socialists.

Brussels Sprout

A pause in the fighting and a release of hostages/prisoners can only be a good thing. However I am a bit confused. From a Strategical point of view what is the benefit to Hamas for a hostage release? In return all they get is a "pause" to the bombardment of Gaza. After 4 or 5 days or whatever it'll just resume and they'll have even less leverage to stop it continuing into perpetuity. In fact the IDF and Israeli Politicians have stressed that it will continue. The biggest brake on the IDF right now are the protests by the families of the hostages. Presumably that'll be reduced when lots of the hostages are released.

I know that the Israelis will be releasing Palestinian prisoners as part of the deal but that doesn't really seem like it's worth it either from the point of view of Hamas (especially if those prisoners just end up in Gaza under future bombardment).

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399935#Comment_121399935

I think I read it's still limited to 200 trucks per day, but including fuel.

I imagine we'll also see a big spike in the numbers of deaths too as the recovery efforts get under way

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399773#Comment_121399773

You said that when America helps others it is an act of self interest.

batman75

The truce was agreed to by Israel due to the leverage Hamas had with the prisoners. Respected commentators like Norman Finkelstein are calling the bombing in Gaza a genocide. For that is precisely what is it. Since 1948 Israel has been engaged in ethnic cleansing as the holocaust survivor said in the clip posted earlier on this thread.

As the holocaust survivor correctly points out you can criticise Israel and not be an anti semite or pro Hamas supporter. I don't foresee Gazans being able to return to Gaza. As Gideon Levy said the average Israeli has become desensitised to the suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of their Government. As we saw with attempts to amend the constitution Israeli's are well able to protest.

Until the Israeli Government learn to accept that a Palestinian life has equal value and merit as an Jewish life then their will be no resolution.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399679#Comment_121399679

I agree on your first point. The question is why are so many aware of that and not of other more serious oppression?

The reason Israel gets the support it does is because the region is strategically important and the other major players in the region are worse than it. Is Israel better or worse than Saudi, Iran or Syria? What about Libya or Egypt? It's a pretty poxy choice should the democratic would surrender the region to Russia and China?

On your last point, it's aa good question. I do discuss those topics on other forums.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399966#Comment_121399966

The longer the pause lasts, the more people see how diplomacy has achieved the release of far more hostages compared to military action, and especially once the true scale of death and destruction starts to come out of Gaza during the pause, the more pressure will be applied on the Israeli cabinet to not restart the war to get more hostages out.

I expect the flow of hostages being released will start to slow down though after the initial burst to try stretch things out while Hamas still retains enough of a reserve as a bargaining chip ( some poor soldiers are going to be kept for a long time unfortunately)

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399959#Comment_121399959

Not at all, I also have an interest in the destabilising effect China has in Asia, currently with the ongoing conflicts they are using as a proxy war in Myanmar. I appreciate your recognition of what is happening in the West Bank and it clearly is textbook ethnic cleansing. I hope you can see that having a ceasfire and reduction in hostilities in Gaza is one step in preventing ethnic cleansing there. This is what most people want, this is why people disagree with how western nations have handled things since October 7th.

There should have been pressure applied immediately to measure Israels response but instead many world leaders went with the "Israel has the right to self defence" line knowing what was happening in the West Bank and that it was clear as day that the response was going to be extremely heavy handed. Now we find ourselves with a massive humanitarian crisis that despite ceasefires shows no signs of improving, pandoras box has been opened and the dangerous demagogues like Ben Gvir have been emboldened. The longer the current Israeli government can maintain a state of emergency the longer they stay in power, and those in power at the minute are extremely dangerous to not only the Palestinians but the region as a whole.

What is incomplete about the current narrative? I don't agree with the comparison with "14 year old socialists" and "bombastic blowhards". Do 14 year olds not have a valid opinion to offer? They do inherit the shithole we leave them, after all.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399935#Comment_121399935

I just hope the ceasefire isn't broken during the timescale. I can easily see Hamas firing a rocket or two or attack IDF soldiers in Gaza in which case, I can't see the IDF holding back for the sake of the ceasefire.

200 trucks a day, well short of the 500 they use to get daily and even that wasn't nearly enough. I fear the worst is yet to come.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400043#Comment_121400043

Yeah agreed, all it'll take is one person to do something stupid and it'll be enough justification to resume destruction.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399821#Comment_121399821

Well done Israel and the IDF.

They need to keep the pressure on Hamas until all the hostages are released.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399589#Comment_121399589

Ah, that old nutshell.

The idea that the Iraq war was fought for Oil is the biggest Myth.

Why would the US spend $1 Trillion on a war, for oil contracts they don't even have today?

At the same time Oil Shale gas exploded making the US a net energy EXPORTER. Coupled with the Biden administration's spending $20 Billion on a Green New Deal.

The ideas you expose are cute and make good chat down the pub, but they lack serious credibility given any degree of critical assessment.

https://niranjanshankar11.medium.com/the-blood-for-oil-myth-899ce3afd558

So, I'll ask again, how is the US going to 'gain' if Gaza manages to make use of its Gas extrapolation potential?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399656#Comment_121399656

OK, so what do you want to happen to Gaza after this war is over?

Hand it back to Hamas, the death cult?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399768#Comment_121399768

The same Shell who is run by Wael Sawan, who was born in Lebanon? That won't sit well with the conspiracy theorists.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400077#Comment_121400077

The irony that you describe a notion like this as "cute" when the real cuteness is assuming that those in power, the likes of Cheney, didn't financially gain and grease the hands of their buddies from carrying out this war. They don't give one flying **** about putting money in government coffers or helping the everyday citizen.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400077#Comment_121400077

It's not so much who has the contracts, it's who controls the supply and more importantly the currency it is traded in. If the US Dollars was not the reserve currency for the majority of oil transactions it would have a big impact on the US economy. There were suggestions Saddam was going against US Interests. As we have seen in other places over the years,if you go against US geo political Interests the risk was regime change whether directly or through proxies

With this in mind what ever the reason for the war, it wasn't likely the primary reason cited by apologists for the war.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399453#Comment_121399453

Not surprised Mate's popped up again. Always taking swings at Israel, nothing new here. His 'therapies' for conditions like ADHD are not without controversy, too. His contention is that everything is traceable to childhood trauma, even things like ADHD. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/addiction-in-society/201112/the-seductive-dangerous-allure-gabor-mat

links to some refutations of his hypotheses on mental health.

As for being a holocaust survivor, technically he was, he was 1 years old when the war ended, but likely was a baby when spirited away from Hungary, perhaps by Wallenbergs efforts. Holocaust survivors with memories of the events are very elderly now.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399659#Comment_121399659

That's silly.

Would you protest against the Irish government today if they were sending aid, military or otherwise operational, to Hamas? Or would doing so make you a bigoted anti-muslim? Because you haven't protested equally about all the other unconnected and unrelated events that have occurred in the last 10 years?

People in the West always protest when countries in the West unconditionally prop up States and governments that commit atrocities.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399808#Comment_121399808

You deny that there is any Anti-Semitism in the wider Arab and Islamic world towards Israel and the Jews?

Do you know what was written in the Hamas Charter? Do you know what they teach their children in schools?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400127#Comment_121400127

Again, more conspiracy theory nonsense.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400121#Comment_121400121

It's a lovely story, but that is all it is, a story.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399929#Comment_121399929

Nowhere did I paint anyone who is critical as being anti-semitic.

I listed specific behaviour that is anti-semitic, and noted anti-semitism as being one major factor in the criticism that Israel gets relative to other states.

So "Bit of a disingenous response"? Sums up your post perfectly.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400131#Comment_121400131

I suppose Hajo Meyer and other holocaust survivors who are critical of Israel can also be cast aside as fringe headbangers too then.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400145#Comment_121400145

They don't protest on anywhere near the same scale, as you are well aware. It is always Israel that gets it.

If the Irish government was sending aid to Hamas like regimes around the world, carrying out Hamas like actions, and one particular regime gets 10 times the protests of another - that warrants examination.

The why of that, is what was being discussed and the point you completely missed in your rush to labelling things "that's silly".

TheRepentent

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399791#Comment_121399791

That picture is the best way to deal with the islamaphobes/hasbarats/Irish-Israeli apologists.

Hopefully the hostages are all released quckly .

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400218#Comment_121400218

No - he was a Holocaust survivor as a child. Mate claiming to be one seems a pace with him being a fringe headbanger.

It's perfectly okay for Holocaust survivors to be anti-Israel. It's not as o.k. to claim to be one when you were a baby then and then use that claim for furtherance of your politics.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400234#Comment_121400234

Sure it's the same as how those poor lads with 200+ convictions are always getting it in the neck from certain sections here.

Pure hatred and discrimination.....nothing else could explain it..... not the poor lads faults. Yet you'd have eejits trying to say that the reason they get in trouble so much, and get their knuckles rapped so much, is that they keep doing the same thing over and over.

Israel is carrying out a genocide in front of the eyes of the world. And the West is facilitating it.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400181#Comment_121400181

Is it really markodaly? You might not like to accept it given your own political views , but America engaging in regime change is factual- the CIA admit in their own declassified files down through the years.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400005#Comment_121400005

Finkelstein and others point out that the regime uses a lot of dehumanising language when speaking about Palestinian people, in order to justify the war crimes against them - constantly linking them to terrorism and extremism etc. This is all part of the classic rogue state playbook (witness how the Russians keep referring to Ukrainians as "Nazis" and "fascists").

Brussels Sprout

I don't think it's accurate to say that people hold Israel to a different standard than some other countries in that region just because of some sort of anti-semitic reasons. After all the South African Afrikaner government was similarly subjected to mass protest and condemnation in the West during the era of Apartheid.

My own theory on the matter is that places like Saudi Arabia and Iran that are absolute pariah states, run by ruthless autocracies who rule their people with an iron fist. They don't have freedom of speech or freedom of the press and have never really had a history of these things. People see places like that and just think they're a lost cause.

In contrast, people see a country like Israel that's a functioning democracy with a free press and a highly educated population that has a look and feel of many of the southern European countries that also border the Mediterranean. They see a place like that and it's easier to imagine it like their own country. That's why it hurts so much more to see how they treat the Palestinians. (Obviously in Ireland then there's a whole other layer when it comes to seeing people get disposed off of their land by colonisers backed up by military might like the settlers in the west bank - that just reminds us of our own not too distant past and the pain that our ancestors went through.)

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400471#Comment_121400471

I take your point but I am not just talking about Irish or even Western people here though in relation to the anti-semitic angle. I am saying it is a major factor globally.

I'm talking about global reaction and how Israel is treated differently by other powers in the region, for conduct they turn a blind eye to (or engage in themselves, or worse conduct) from other powers of the same ethnicity \ religion.

And the noise that that generates feeds into the reaction in Ireland also.

I think also some of the criticism to Israel from certain circles (the PBP types) comes from a general hostility to Western nations of which they include Israel, and never mind not holding Israel to same standard, do not hold 'others' to any standard and make excuses for their far worse conduct.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400537#Comment_121400537

Is there any crime, or any point, at which you think it would be possible for a non-jew-hating, non-antisemitic, person to legitimately criticize Israel? Even if they haven't devoted at least as many words to every single bad thing that has happened anywhere in the world during their lifetime?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400131#Comment_121400131

Why do you think people refuse to condemn Israels obvious crimes against humanity ? Do you not think it is strange ?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400605#Comment_121400605

Disingenuous much?

And already asked and answered below.

When it is only Israel being criticised, when Hamas is not, when the insult Nazi is hurled at Israel for conduct they would not describe as Nazi from others - that is when the legitimacy should be questioned. Or rather, that is when is is entirely legitimate to question the agenda and motivation for this difference.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400211#Comment_121400211

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400537#Comment_121400537

With regard to PBP: Their mealy mouthed response and hand wringing after Russia's invasion of Ukraine showed them to be entirely morally bankrupt. It was clear after that that their entire view of geopolitics is based simply on bashing the USA and their allies, regardless of the circumstances. They're a joke of a party.