Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

tandcapply

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121409212#Comment_121409212

I assume that you're just trolling the thread.

Not sure what could be going on in the head of someone that believes that any country would target it's own people,even Israel that seems to some to be the root of all evil

Rezident

Once we [take all of Gaza] it will probably take almost a year to clear the whole Gaza Strip, and to explore all their underground infrastructures, and find all their rockets and missiles . . . The strip is one big bunker,” said Avivi. “It’s full of booby traps, full of IEDs everywhere, bombs, munitions — it’s unbelievable what they built. So there’s going to be a lot of work.”

So Gaza is essentially a giant terrorist bunker with millions of human shields on top. It's kind of brilliant in a Dr Evil way.

Using their own women and children as human shields. Using hospitals and mosques to launch attacks anticipating the Neville Chamberlains in the West will call for ceasefires and appeasement.

Hamas are smart, far smarter than a lot of people in the West evidently. Imagine if they put their considerable abilities to use for good instead of only killing their neighbours and killing their own people?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121407651#Comment_121407651

He's been shown to be a Russian tool. Why believe anything he says, and why click his videos and earn him money. If you can bother, why don't you summarize his points and debate those, rather than just point to some video from a putinbot.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121409802#Comment_121409802

Israel's military doctrine allows it's military to target it's own in the event of a possible hostage situation. It is common knowledge through interviews and eye witnesses that this happened on the 7th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#:~:text=According%20to%20one%20version%2C%20it,and%20subsequent%20controversial%20prisoner%20exchanges.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410447#Comment_121410447

Opening paragraph of that article states that the directive was revoked in 2016.

If you are going to make a case with references, you should at least read a bit of them.

Posters are regularly making their arguments with links to back them up, and when reading beyond the headline, that article makes the opposite case.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410818#Comment_121410818

How long would it take to invoke do you think. Fact is 28 helicopters and jets were used, tanks were used to attack settlements, they bombed their own bases which were under attack and orders were given and received to do this. Hundreds of Israeli soldiers killed that day and the helicopter pilots are on record as saying they had no idea who they were shooting at.

Not excusing Hamas's role that day in any way, but plain as day hundreds were killed by friendly fire.

www.instagram.com/reel/Cz6iQIji1Ph/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=loading

Francie Barrett

https://www.thejournal.ie/lord-mayor-israeli-ambassador-meeting-6231031-Nov2023/

I thought Irish neutrality was important to the left? If so, why are they so eager to close down diplomatic channels?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408700#Comment_121408700

I'm just assuming/guessing Hamas stockpiled rockets for the 7th and fired as much as they had as quickly as they could.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411214#Comment_121411214

You say yourself they didn’t know who they were shooting at. That is different to deliberately targeting with friendly fire to prevent hostage taking.

You are victim blaming. The deaths on that day were 100% caused by Hamas actions. They are proud of the killings. No need for you to make excuses on their behalf.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411311#Comment_121411311

I'm not saying that you are wrong (I don't have a 100 % reliable figure either) But I remember one Hamaz spokesperson claiming that they had 100'000 Rockets / Missiles etc. (he could have been including Mortars in that figure) so I went with the 50'000 figure. That seems reasonable to me for the kind of war Hamaz expects. If you have seen any Russian / Ukraine multiple rocket launching vids, even 50'000 rockets will not last too long. For instance, a BM-21 122-mm MRL can fire all rockets in 6 seconds or fire each singly and can reload in 5 minutes. It can fire the 40 rockets or any part thereof at a fixed 0.5-second interval. Single rockets can be fired manually at any desired interval. One volley from a BM-21 battalion is 720 rounds. I doubt that Hamas has any BM-21's, none the less, several teams working together can fire quite an amount singly. 3'000 that they fired in the same day, and 7'000 in the same week, is quite some doing without using a multiple rocket Launcher.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411404#Comment_121411404

I've heard the 100,000 figure before, but that was in relation to Hezbollah. Considering about 10,000 missiles fired so far from Gaza this year, that's more than fired in the 10 years preceding it. Hard to believe they have 10x the amount. They have been planning for 2 years, that's a hell of a lot to stockpile.

Just because Hamas have shown they can fire 3000 missiles in 4 hours doesn't mean they have a large stockpiles of 50 or 100k.

I'm sure if they had a supply that large they would have been firing 24k a day for 4 days straight to overwhelm Israel's air defence.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411396#Comment_121411396

Of course they could not distinguish who was in a car, who was in a house and who was running through a field.

The point is when you fire on someone you need to be certain that person is the enemy and even the people doing the firing admitted that they knew they would be hitting their own people in the process. That is why they requested the order to do so and that order was given.

The whole idea of that directive was to prevent hostages being taken regardless of who they shot. Maybe if they never did that loads more hostages would of been captured and many more Hamas would of escaped also.

I agree Hamas's actions that day was the cause of the deaths, but i also accept that years of Israels documented crimes against humanity played a part of those actions also. Don't you ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411569#Comment_121411569

I’ll address your last paragraph, and give some elaboration. The origins of this conflict clearly go back many years, and the actions of Israel cannot be described as mild. The actions of settlers on the West Bank is wrong and cannot be condoned.

I think the fundamental question that divides people on this forum is whether the state of Israel has a right to exist.

If you believe not, then nothing they do can be in any way acceptable. If you do, then it is possible to form the opinion that it is understandable that they are armed to the teeth, and aggressively defensive, given that they are surrounded by neighbours that openly campaign to eliminate them.

The Israeli response to the most recent attack by Hamas has been exceedingly brutal, and I suspect that Hamas use that to their political advantage.

I do think that the Israel / Gaza war is particularly contentious because of the Jewish element to the conflict. It has been pointed out numerous times on this thread that there have been vastly more barbaric conflicts in the Middle East between Arab nations, and these have not stirred the same level of debate on this site.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411228#Comment_121411228

It's military neutrality.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411396#Comment_121411396

Hamas fired the shell from the tank. Sure.

What are you referring to, circadian?

I’m not disputing that friendly fire casualties are likely to have happened. I’m quite sure that day was pandemonium.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411896#Comment_121411896

Not once in over 700 pages has anyone to my knowledge disputed Israel's right to exist.

Why is it when you ask a question like - Do Palestinians have the right to self defense people flee to the hills, refuse to answer and never to be seen again. I mean it is like saying the French resistance never had a right to resist the occupying Nazi's isn't it. It is black & white.

Anyway, looks like another crackdown on the press is incoming.

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1727860032274940413

odyssey06

@Brickster69 Yes, lots of people have disputed Israel's right to exist. Anybody who chants "From the river to the sea..."

As for the French resistance. The French resistance didn't go door to door deliberately executing entire families of German civilians. They didnt mutilate and kill children, civilians. They didn't kidnap German kids as hostages.

Your historical comparison is false, and is a deliberate attempt to downplay the atrocities Hamas inflicted on civilians. Hamas are a terrorist scum death cult. They are not freedom fighters.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412000#Comment_121412000

Sorry I thought you were referring to the tank that blew up the car in the Gaza strip a week or so ago.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412134#Comment_121412134

Firing rockets at your neighbour isn’t self defence. It is aggression.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411228#Comment_121411228

This was in response to the Dublin Lord Mayor cancelling a meeting with the Israeli ambassador. Why do Irish local politicians get so involved with foreign policy? THey should stick to what they elected to do: street cleaning, provision of parks and other facilities, road maintenance, etc. THey should have more responsibilities, even if only to stop them sbing distracted by Gaxa or whatever. Problem is, they are of such low calibre, you would't put them in charge of toilet cleaning.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412233#Comment_121412233

Oh right. So someone illegally invades and occupies you, throw your kids in prison, go into peoples homes with a gun and say " **** off this is my home now " build a ghetto around 2.5 million people, tell them they have to leave their homes or they will be blown up and then call them animals who should be destroyed.

What do you expect them to do bake them a cake and give them a bunch of roses ?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412173#Comment_121412173

Do you think Palestinians has the right to self defense under international law ?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410068#Comment_121410068

Imagine if the Israelis realised that Hamas were hiding underground and knew that there was no point in killing the civilians on top? Then imagine if they looked after those same people and showed them what life could actually be like without Hamas?

Of course that would entail treating them like human beings, not cutting down their olive groves etc etc. It could work.

brickster69

Spain's leader speaks to Bibi

https://twitter.com/europapress/status/1727692187259764815

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412798#Comment_121412798

Just imagine life were that simple.

It isn’t.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411495#Comment_121411495

From WIKI and Al-jazeera:-

Quote "Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip since 2001 as part of the continuing Arab Israeli conflict. Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel,." Un-Quote. On the 7th, they fired a total of 3'000 missiles, so that gives an average of 125 missiles per hour. And as we know, a further 7'000 were fired in the same week.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412955#Comment_121412955

I'm not quite sure what that proves?

Certainly doesn't prove they have a stockpile of 50/100k rockets.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412984#Comment_121412984

OK.,No problem I'm offering my opinion, and I will stand by it. You have a different opinion, that's OK. Speaking of proof, can you prove that I'm wrong and you are right?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412717#Comment_121412717

The question is moot when Hamas conducts this so-called defence of Palestinians using war crimes and atrocity. In fact, inflicting war crimes on their supposed 'own people'. And ruling Gaza as a despotic regime. So sure, Palestinians have the right to self defense against the Hamas terrorist scum death cult.

As to any other angle, let's see what experts in international law outline wrt conduct of Palestinian self defence that would be justified.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413138#Comment_121413138

Honestly, do you actually believe that ?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413314#Comment_121413314

Every word. Hamas have zero interest in the self defence of Palestianians, they have committed war crimes against their own civilians and Israeli civilians. They seek to commit atrocities against Israeli civilians. They are a terrorist death cult, and ultimately enemies of Palestinians as well as Israelis.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394539#Comment_121394539

Indeed, and unlike the poster @Tell me how you quoted, I would not take South Africa as a moral or other guide for anything. The SA government (and to a lesser extent society) is so insanely corrupt and dysfunctional that they literally cannot even keep traffic lights or street lights on the roads.

Why are South Africans Stealing Traffic Lights? - YouTube

If the ANC is one side of an issue, the default position of any sane person should be to take the other side.

tandcapply

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412609#Comment_121412609

You forgot a minor detail of going to war against a 1day old Israel in 1948, losing and getting kicked out to Gaza strip.

Given autonomy in 2005 and 2 years later electing Hamas Isis and the rest is on the news.

Not just these poor people going about their business but agree that leaders failed all in the middle east and Europe.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413458#Comment_121413458

"Hamas Isis"? ISIS consider Hamas apostate, as they do Palestinians in general.

tandcapply

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412798#Comment_121412798

I can read your hatred towards Israel in here but will address to me best knowledge. Gaza was freed from Jews in the early 2000s and Hamas got elected/took over after killing the Palestinian authority (PLO nominated). A bit like what happened in Afghanistan when the US withdrew last year, Hamas took a bit longer (1+ years).

Any freedom/self determination Israel gave Gaza brought misery in multiples to both Gaza and Israel.

West bank is no way near as bad so food for thought there

rogber

Good to see some hostages released, including some very elderly people and kids. Almost first positive development in weeks.

Somehow not surprised it barely gets a mention in this utterly tedious "my side is better than your side" thread.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413458#Comment_121413458

And who went to war with the 1 day old Israel exactly and why ?

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412717#Comment_121412717

Under international law, NATIONS have a right to self defence. There is no Palestinian nation, so the answer is no they have no such right.

(And, it should be pointed out that nations (or would be nations) also have obligations, one of which is prevent, or actively try to prevent, their territory from being used by illegal armed forces to attack the territory of other nations).

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413535#Comment_121413535

Jordan, Egypt and Syria, who wanted the land back.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413619#Comment_121413619

You could argue Israel doesn't have the right to self defense in land it has occupied.

As you said, NATIONS have a right to self defense against other NATIONS.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413481#Comment_121413481

Yes I hate people who murder kids and innocents. No time for people who do that at all that's why I said earlier in the thread that the Israeli war machine was just as bad and as murderous as Hamas. They prove it every day.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413649#Comment_121413649

That’s incorrect. Under international law, nations have the right to self defence against other nations that attack them AND also against illegal organisations that operate from a territory (or nation) to attack them.

In other words, to take a domestic example, had an Irish terrorist organisation launched a comparable attack on the UK, it would be absolutely within the UK’s self-defence rights to attack Ireland if - in the UK’s opinion - our government wasn’t actively trying to prevent such attacks or had effectively lost control of part of our territory to such an organisation.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413619#Comment_121413619

139 of the 193 countries at the UN recognize Palestine as a country.

That number is only going to grow as Israel has alienated a large section of the planet with its genocidal mania over the last 4 weeks. They've burnt a hell of a lot of goodwill with this conflict and will ultimately pay a price for it on the diplomatic stage.

And I wouldn't be talking too much about the obligations of nations when Israel desecrated the memory of those who perished in the holocaust with their wearing of the Star of David at the UN in recent weeks. Not to mention the US, UK, Germany and others supporting them devoutly as they aimed to butcher Palestinians. Something they did again today despite a ceasefire being in existence. How difficult is that for the families of the people shot and killed by Israel, during a ceasefire, as they tried to return to their houses after Israel made them leave by bombing the entire area.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413672#Comment_121413672

Not sure why you are mentioning Ireland and the UK in your example, that's 2 nations. Israel occupies Gaza, so the self defense clause is out the window.

The same way Russia cannot claim self defense in areas it occupies in Ukraine.

I guess it's to prevent hostile countries invading and occupying territories while using internation law to protect them and cover their crimes.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413692#Comment_121413692

Israel didn’t occupy Gaza for the best part of twenty years and that didn’t work out well for them or the Palestinians.

The alternative if you prefer is that Israel does occupy Gaza and therefore as an “occupying force” has a legal obligation to police the territory and therefore an obligation to suppress Hamas. And, of course, given the arms Hamas controls such suppression is inevitably going to be violent.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413675#Comment_121413675

How many of those 139 countries that supposedly recognise Palestine actually recognise it is a nation? And how many are prepared to aid it militarily?

(I will leave aside your obvious antisemitic criticism of Israelis wearing the Star of David in a public protest particularly given the star is used by Israel every time it flies its flag)

Sir_Name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121407234#Comment_121407234

Measured and articulate answering the questions. Delighted a number Israeli hostages have been freed. Hopefully many more and with any luck ceasefire extended to release even more. Also delighted to see some Palestinian hostages released.

Some background from CNN: Around 8,300 Palestinian prisoners are currently held in Israeli jails, said Qadura Fares, head of

the Palestinian Commission for Detainees and Ex-Prisoners' Affairs.

More than 3,000 of them are being held in what Israel calls "administrative detention," Fares told

CNN, adding that this means they are being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process. “

a handful of these are as young as 14! And according to CNN offences for some detained was throwing stones.

I find that shocking. To caveat I’m sure some are being held for legitimate reasons but this administrative detention isn’t how I would expect a democratic country to behave. Everyone has the right to a fair trial.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413718#Comment_121413718

If there's any war crime charges brought against Israel and they use the self defense argument, they very may well loose it, if it's proven they initially occupied Gaza.

This won't be some UN resolution with countries abstaining or vetoing on political lines, it would actually be a court in the Hague applying international law etc...

The alternative I prefer is Israel be more clinical in their response. Not bombing a refugee camp to kill a dozen Hamas fighters when those fighters are not an imminent threat to Israel. It's not like those fighters were loading a rocket to be fired at Israel, one which Israel can't defend against and not destroying it would have a high probability of causing more Israeli civilians to be killed.

Or bombing ambulances which they believed contained Hamas fighters. No immediate threat, these weren't SCUD launchers being erected and fueled and being ready to fire within minutes. So maybe don't bomb them outside a hospital and wait until they are away from it. You know, actually try limit civilian deaths.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413619#Comment_121413619

Are you honestly saying that the Palestinian people have no right to self defense ?