Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417747#Comment_121417747

Im sure Morocco would like these back too.

Ludicrous stuff from the Spanish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plazas_de_soberan%C3%ADa

brickster69

I bet they are turning in their graves now seeing what is happening today.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417888#Comment_121417888

And they were welcomed with open arms..........

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417919#Comment_121417919

Then turned on the people who welcomed them ..........

Be right back

Finally...

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418447#Comment_121418447

Sarcasm. They clearly were not welcome 🙄

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418465#Comment_121418465

More sarcasm 😉😉

rolling boh

Great to see Emily Hand released.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418537#Comment_121418537

I just bawled my eyes out when I read it.

Thank God.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417497#Comment_121417497

The next few months will tell a lot, but if you take ISIS for example (and Hamas is pretty much the same. They share the same brutal version of Islam) they were militarily defeated in Syria, yet they live on in Africa and Afghanistan. I think that the ideology will live on, in one guise or another, and the fight against them will continue. Non-military means will not defeat Hamas, no more than it defeated ISIS. Whatever hope there is, and peaceful means is the key here, as you say, for ordinary Palestinians.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418587#Comment_121418587

I fully expecting to hear bad news, so to hear she's now safely back in Israel is fantastic and uplifting stuff.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418605#Comment_121418605

So much could go wrong during any of the hostage swops.

It's very hard to get hopes up.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418537#Comment_121418537

It's fantastic - even after hearing the news about her last week, I was fearful she might be dead anyway and it was just false hope.

cheese sandwich

Finally some good news after a pretty **** week.

And vindication for the diplomatic efforts of the DFA and Michéal Martin. Shows up the performative posturing of SF, PBP et al for the nonsense that it is

rolling boh

I was just waiting for the official word only then did I know it was true and she would be home with her family .Really delighted for her and her family .

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418593#Comment_121418593

ISIS consider Hamas apostate, so no, not the same.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417681#Comment_121417681

Yes, they did in both Germany and Japan, yet it failed in Afghanistan despite spending 20 years and billions (or was it trillions) of dollars? ) The main difference why it worked in Japan and Germany, but not in Afghanistan is that both Japan and Germany were society's that followed a central leadership, and what was decided at the very top, was accepted and acted upon by all of society. (Hitler in Germany, and the Emperor in Japan) Afghanistan was the complete opposite. Faced with a common enemy, Russia, they coordinated, but that was it. When it came to forming an independent state of Afghanistan, which the US had being preparing them for, it all collapsed at the first fence, and they reverted to their traditional Afghan ways. Different regions were ruled by the local warlords. But the minute the Taliban crossed the border back into Afghanistan, and Karzai fled, then it all fell apart into the fragmented Afghanistan that the Taliban were able to control. And this is what we have today. There is no central leadership in Islam, which can say do this or do that. It's all based on the Quran, and the various interpretations of it that decide which path to take, and thats that.

Strazdas

First photo of Emily reunited with her dad :

Be right back

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418762#Comment_121418762

Fantastic..

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418593#Comment_121418593

Yes, Non military means may not defeat the Hamas ideology but it could certainly weaken it by making it less appealing for Palestinians to embrace it if there is the real prospect of a better life turning away from militancy

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418702#Comment_121418702

And the Wahhabi's consider everyone who is not a Wahhabi, as not being a true Muslim. You can take all of the different version's, each claiming to be the true followers of Islam, and that goes for each and every version that you can name. What makes any version different from other version's is the "brand" of Islam they follow. Some are peaceful, others are not. But the one thing ISIS and Hamas have in common is their sheer brutality and dedication to the destruction of anyone they consider enemies of Islam. Hamas are no different from the ISIS that paraded their prisoners, dressed in orange jump suits, before they beheaded them all in public, and in one case, they burned a Jordanian pilot alive in a cage. Hamas left the very same murderous message on the 7th. No different, except ISIS not wanting to hand over the mantle of being the "True" followers of Islam, hence ISIS considers Hamas as being apostates. They consider all Muslims as apostates, unless of course, they are ISIS. At heart, they are the very same murderous radical Islams that are fighting for the return of the caliphate. Just trying to outdo each other to become the "Best" followers of Allah. Their actions speak louder than words, and there's no difference between any Radical Muslims despite what they claim.

Montage of Feck

Well Michael Martin has shown himself to be a cut above his FG co consul as well as the screechy bluffers in opposition. Not sure how much influence Irish diplomats had in this, but as minister for foreign affairs was fair and diplomatic in his dealing with both sides on his recent trip to the middle east.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121418941#Comment_121418941

Yes, that's true. Quite a large nr of Muslims join radical groups because they are paid to do so, it's the only employment in the area they live in. Same goes for Palestinian's living in Gaza, massive unemployment and then along comes Hamas, money no object, jobs for the followers, which is a pretty easy sell, to fight against the hated enemy, Israel. Same thing the present day in Afghanistan. But yet, not every Muslim is happy to follow these radicals. Much anti-Hamas sentiment is suppressed violently within Gaza, same as anti-Taliban sentiment is suppressed in Afghanistan (and in the North of Afghanistan, there's still plenty of that.) So yes, if an alternative live could be provided, then I could see many Muslims following it.

Tell me how

A number of people have died in attacks by Israel during the ceasefire.

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1728083466921693657?t=FsYKlNfU2dIigs5GhGq2AA&s=19

I always think these deaths must hurt particularly strongly for their families given they happened spring a time when both sides had promised not to attack.

batman75

Norman Finkelstein came across very well on the Piers Morgan show the other night. I believe he is regarded as the pre eminent expert on Gaza. Their will be no peace while Netanyahu is in power. If Israel resumes it's genocide after the release of hostages then it's international goodwill will continue to evaporate.

Prosperity for Palestinians is the only way to 'defeat' Hamas. Hamas can thrive because Palestinians are so oppressed. The greater the mass killings of Palestinians the greater the support for Hamas. It's a bit rich for Netanyahu to want to destroy Hamas considering Israel encouraged and financed Hamas in the early years as a counter measure to the PLO and to try and split the Palestinian people and encourage a form of civil war.

Finkelstein made an interesting point re the October 7th attacks. If people break out of a concentration camp where they have been interned for 20 years is it any wonder they lash out at their oppressor. If you treat people like animals is it any wonder if they act like animals. For the record I would condemn the October 7th attacks.

riffmongous

Thank god the hostage transfers have gone off so smoothly so far, I was quite worried early when there was a delay

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121417470#Comment_121417470

There were 13 arrests out of 300k people at London March today. A march that was observed by a massive police presence.

6 for failure to disperse.

So that's 7 for what was said to be harmful messaging of some sort.

That's 0.002%.

So even if the police only arrested 1 out of 10 displaying harmful messaging (no suggestion that this was the case), it would still mean that 99.98% of the marches had a peaceful message.

Do you think a group should be defined by the actions of 0.02% of its members (or probably closer to 0.002% to be more accurate)?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419186#Comment_121419186

A boy was shot by IDF soldiers while waiting for his relative to be released.

Supposedly they then **** at anyone who tried to come to his aid.

Horrible stuff if this story is true, I saw it on Twitter.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419201#Comment_121419201

The IDF are really cruel and really see Palestinians as below them. There's a hatred there that's just so inhuman. And yes Hamas are worse, doesn't make the IDF right or good. Just because you're not as evil, doesn't mean you're not evil.

Despite what Ukraine has been though they still don't show that much evil and hatred to Russian soldiers, let alone Russian civilians.

Tell me how

From tonight in Jerusalem.

https://twitter.com/JoshuaPHilll/status/1728539870199513141?t=tvXAlyvucb4ZuIHR-opI0Q&s=19

I suppose these people are antisemites as well in the minds of some posters here.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419217#Comment_121419217

Not sure what this is supposed to show, or discredit.

Like any other country in the world, Israel is not a hive mind. Of course people will strongly disagree with what's happening, and have done since day one, no different to Palestinians that are anti-Hamas.

We also saw similar, large-scale protests in Russia at the start of the Ukraine war, but to this day polls show the majority remain in favor or support the war.

Not all Israelis support what's happening. Not all Palestinians support what happened on October 7th. Not all Russian's support the ongoing war in Ukraine.

I don't think anyone ever suggested or thought otherwise.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419230#Comment_121419230

Not sure what this is supposed to show, or discredit.

It's supposed to show people protesting outside the residence of the PM of Israel, as it says it does.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419217#Comment_121419217

Holocaust deniers also, Pro-Hamas supporters etc...

So protest about the lax security that resulted in the deaths of 800 civilians, but don't protest the deaths of 13000 civilians.

For those on the 9/11 system, that's 8x vs 562x

sock.rocker*

Amazing how some people representing a group can mean nothing when you don't like it, but some people representing another group is an excuse to murder thousands of children when you do like it.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419236#Comment_121419236

Who is that directed at?

Just nonsensical posting.

Who expressly said Israelis protesting means nothing? Can you point out where?

Who said people representing another - or any - group is an "excuse" to murder thousands of children? Can you also point out where anyone excused the death of thousands of civilians/children?

This level of infantile nonsense is contributing exactly zero to the debate.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419217#Comment_121419217

Look at the signs. They are protesting because they don't think enough is being done to get the hostages back, not because they are opposed to the war

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419255#Comment_121419255

It's the first time I've seen someone argue that families of Israel want more bombs fired at the areas where their family members are being held.

Hamas offered to exchange hostages within a week after they were captured, Nethanyahu refused but instead started a genocide.

Surely you accept that the people who want their family members returned would have preferred he didn't act as he did but instead pushed the return of hostages.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419255#Comment_121419255

Criticizing the Israeli government is enough to be classed as antisemitic or Pro-Hamas in this day and age!

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419264#Comment_121419264

Where did that poster argue that?

Because they did not, or anything close.

Literally pointing out a fact, that the protest is about families wanting the Government to do more in no way, shape or form says, suggests, or implies that families are demanding that Israel unload more bombs on Gaza.

Only the families can know what greater effort means. Someone pointing out that they want greater effort, whatever form that might take, is just pointing out an objective fact.

This sort of utter crap would be akin to claiming that someone taking part in a pro-palestinian march is advocating for a repeat of Oct 7th.

Could you maybe actually stop and consider what you're saying before you post such complete and utter drivel.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419269#Comment_121419269

I'm not here to satisfy whatever metric you have set for what justifies views being held. 3 posts in a row now where you're outraged that people have the audacity to draw different conclusions from something to you.

The poster I was responding to implied that the protesters could still be in favour of the war, I pointed out the issue that that would suggest, it was an entirely reasonable suggestion to point out.

If you want a place where you can control exactly what people can respond to your posts, maybe a discussion board like this isn't the place for you.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419274#Comment_121419274

Sorry, but you are arguing in bad faith.

They simply stated facts, but you don't like those facts so you invented scenarios instead.

The poster pointed out an absolute fact. The protest isn't opposition to the war, it's calling for more to be done to release hostages.

They did not "imply" they are in favour of the war. They said nothing about that whatsoever. They simply stated a fact - and the fact is that the protest is calling for more to be done to free hostages, and it doesn't say anything about opposition to the war.

Are some the crowd against the war? I'm sure they are. But nobody can draw any facts from the photo save for the fact they the placards call for more action.

What does more action mean? We have no idea. Only the protestors can answer that. Yet you came along and claimed that the poster was arguing that families are calling for more bombs to be dropped!

It's complete fiction based on nothing whatsoever save your own bias.

You can dance around that simple truth whatever way you like, but it is the truth.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419274#Comment_121419274

You tried to imply that those protestors are calling for the resignation of netanyahu because they are against the war when that's not the case at all.

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419245#Comment_121419245

It's a general statement at how picky and choosy everyone is when it comes to viewing marches, reading polls, or determining a citizenry's deserved punishment for their government's actions.

What I've noticed is that people in democratic countries are excellent at distancing themselves from the actions of their governments, even though they vote for them. "Not my president" etc. or people completely separating themselves from the actions of their armies.

But at the same time, they look at authoritarian regimes where people do not have a vote and hold every citizen responsible for the actions of the government. Regular Russians and Palestinians being those people in the last couple of years, even though they don't vote for their leaders.

Polls are viewed with healthy scepticism in democratic countries because we know it depends on who runs the poll and who asks. The Express's polls are going to lean one way while the Guardian's lean another. But people latch onto any poll coming out of an authoritarian country, where you cannot get a valid poll result, and then take that result which will always support their government, and use it to justify the abuse of those people.

You're right, this doesn't really add much to the thread, but neither does 99% of the other posts here. This is a discussion forum, not Wikipedia. Go hangout there if you do not like discussion.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419294#Comment_121419294

Really? How do you know?

Family members of people held hostage have spoken at the Knesset (amongst other places) calling for a ceasefire and negotiations. That is a simple fact.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419291#Comment_121419291

See previous post.

You don't get to call your opinions or those of others 'facts' just because you claim them as such to try to shut down conflicting opinions.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419296#Comment_121419296

The poll which showed 55-60% support for Hamas literally came from within Palestine, from a reputable source.

The poll which showed lesser support I am not sure, but it still showed a reasonably strong level of support, and it was a far smaller poll too than the previous one referenced.

I suppose you wouldn't like to comment on the fact that polls show dismal support for the PA? Or maybe the fact there's been no elections in West Bank either because they actually know Hamas would take power there too?

But sure, continue to try and dismiss it all.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419309#Comment_121419309

You literally claimed a poster said something they did not regarding the motives of the protest.

A fact is a fact. It's objective.

The fact is the protest has placards calling for more action to release hostages.

We have no idea what more action means. I wouldn't even speculate. I have no idea. Maybe it means more diplomatic effort. Maybe they want more bombs. I have no idea and I wouldn't even pretend to suppose.

Maybe every single one of those protestors is against the war. Maybe every single one is in favor. I have zero idea. Once again I wouldn't pretend otherwise, nor would I make any assumptions.

I can only go by logic and fact, and the fact is the placards call for more action. They don't say "we support the war". They don't say "drop more bombs on Gaza".

But you expressly said, the poster argued that families want more bombs to be dropped.

It's an incredibly bad faith argument with zero basis. It's nothing to do with opinion. The poster literally pointed out an actual fact. No opinion. Just fact.

Of course you could easily solve this discussion by pointing out, precisely and specifically, where the poster argued that families want more bombs dropped on Gaza by pointing out that the placards demand more action on releasing hostages, and not opposition to the war.

Can you do that? Would clear it up nicely.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419318#Comment_121419318

In the original post.

not because they are opposed to the war

It was that posters implication that these people support the war. The war is essentially the dropping of bombs on Gaza.

Glad to help.

Homelander

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419320#Comment_121419320

The poster pointed out that the placards show they are demanding more action to free hostages. Made zero comment on what that action might be. Probably because the poster, like myself, have no idea and wouldn't presume to know.

And simply observed that they are not protesting against the war as might have been assumed from the video without that context.

It says nothing whatsoever about their stance on the actual war. The poster claimed nothing whatsoever about their motives. In fact the poster claimed nothing whatsoever, save the fact that the protest seems centered around freeing hostages.

To be quite frank, if you insist on claiming that the poster implied they expressly support the war simply by pointing out that objective fact, you have serious bias.

With that logic, any Palestinian not expressly condemning Hamas completely backs Hamas. Except no-one with a shred of logic would ever argue such a warped thing.

Sad reflection of the online world. Everything has to be binary, you're either on my side or their side. No allowance whatsoever for nuance, context, middle ground, observers, et al.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121419323#Comment_121419323

You seem intent on having an argument based on the foundation that only your opinion or interpretation of comments/posts is correct.

You'll have to find someone else to have that argument with from here on.

I've already pointed out the basis for which I made my comments, take it or leave it, I don't really care, but I'm not going to waste time when all you have to counter it is your opinion.

But it is a noticeable shift on here from that people are now arguing so as not to be associated with supporting the war when in recent weeks this was not the case. Lets hope the trend continues in this direction.