Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432679#Comment_121432679

Truth: Hamas invades Oct 7 and committed atrocities, from what can be seen, for the lulz. Maybe to derail Saudi/Israel closer relationship.

Truth: Ireland feels some comradeship with Palestinians because of antisemitic sentiment long a part of the teachings of the dominant force in Irish society until recently, the RCC. Perhaps a bunch of delusional, BDS inspired victimhood plays a role, too.

Truth: No Palestine in the 1940's. It's a post-1970 concept. And unlike all the previous rules of that region, only Israel has allowed Palestinians to be part of government, vote, etc. Not like the Ottomans/Jordanians/Syrians did anything but treat them like crap.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432660#Comment_121432660

I'd put that down to religious exceptionalism on both sides. Israelis generally, and successive Israeli governments in particular, have no regard for anyone who isn't Jewish. Non-Jews have scant rights under Israeli law and the Jewish faith considers gentiles to be 'half a person'. Muslims also consider non-believers to be kafirs and were happy to massacre non-believers en masse. We all know what Christians have done to infidels and heretics in the past, too.

Religions that claim they are the chosen people are going to be very disappointed come judgement day, having left a legacy of death, persecution, hatred and deceit behind them. So next time someone claims they know the will of God, go ahead and give them a wedgie.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432801#Comment_121432801

If you don't know what is right, how do you know what is wrong?

brickster69

UN security meeting on Palestine just starting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfAa1GiNdgM

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432121#Comment_121432121

No, I wouldn't class Spain as a neighbour.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433194#Comment_121433194

I don't know what are the correct efforts to combat a group like Hamas but I do know that if your methods involve killing multiples of civilians for each militant then your methods are immoral. So I do know the difference between what is right and wrong morally. I'm not against Israel fighting and destroying Hamas.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433194#Comment_121433194

We can think we know what is right on the micro scale but not know it when we zoom out to the broader picture?

TomTomTim

"No one supports Hamas"

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1729630529199432095

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432679#Comment_121432679

See that's the false premise; there were no "Palestinians" in the 1940's. In the 1840's there were around 300,000 people made up of Arabs (85%), Christians(10%) and Jews (5%) living in what became Mandated Palestine but was then part of the Ottoman Empire and had previously never been a geographical Nation. By the 1900's, mainly due to the inflow of Jews and Zionist money, the population of Jews and Arabs had increased significantly. Then the First World War happened and the area came under a League of Nations Mandate, administered by the UK and France. Then there was a series bloody conflicts of what in reality were the ebbs and flows of a Civil War between the Jews and Arabs, both off whom were Palestinian. Then the League of Nations and the victors of the Second World War proposed a partition of Mandated Palestine into Arab and Jewish countries. The Jews accepted that but the surrounding Arab countries in the area didn't and in 1948 they invaded and annexed what is now the West Bank and Gaza. Israel annexed the rest of what was to have been Arab Mandated Palestine but for the most part it was desert.

In short everyone in the region has been treating the Palestinian Arabs like **** since the end of Ottoman rule. Mind you it was a walk in the park in comparison to the conquest of the Arabian Gulf by Ibn Saud when the British and French backed a tribe of fundamentalist lunatics so that the Hashemites wouldn't rule the region and pan-Arab nationalism wouldn't take hold. The level of savagery unleashed was up there with Rwanda and the worst excesses of the Second World War. The locals have good cause not to like the West and to resent anything that sounds or smells like colonialism but many of their leaders don't. Many of them were put in power by Western countries and are still kept in power by them now. The Israeli treatment of the Palestinian Arabs is nothing special in the region. What does mark them out is that religious divide.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433229#Comment_121433229

Was the bombing of Hiroshima wrong? It was necessary to bring an end to the war, it killed 70,000 civilians, with maybe a tiny fraction of military killed.

That is why we have international law and the rules of war to determine what is allowed.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432860#Comment_121432860

I take my news from sources which have an editor and a proper structure. I don't place any value on social gossip (AK social media).

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433143#Comment_121433143

That second one anyway is utter conjecture. I would counter that Irish people feel a kinship because they know what it's like to be forcibly removed from their land by force and then treated as second class citizens for generations while being gaslit by their oppressors.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433321#Comment_121433321

If I were to say yes would you advocate the nuking of Gaza . No you wouldnt because a world war is a completely different scenario to the one we are seeing in palestine/israel. If you think it is acceptable to kill more civilians than militants in such an operation and how that will result in Palestinians wanting to make peace with Israel argue that point.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429821#Comment_121429821

What organisations are these?

Care to link them to us please?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433178#Comment_121433178

Does anyone really think there'll be a judgement day? Do we not know enough by now to know that there's no such thing as the supernatural?

My daughter once asked me what the difference was between a religion and a cult. I thought about it for a minute and then said "Time". If you read the writings of Roman intellectuals in the second Century they talk about Christianity the same way we talk about Scientology.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433272#Comment_121433272

Useful idiots the lot of them

We see the same narrative taking shape here.

"October 7th wasn't that bad"

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433359#Comment_121433359

That happened to the Jews as well.

brickster69

Announced just now at the UN a couple of kids were shot dead in Jenin this afternoon by Israeli snipers.

CCTV of the 8 year old kid

https://twitter.com/Hisham_N_Omari/status/1729859120617099696

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432605#Comment_121432605

There was supposed to be a Command Centre in the hospital too but the IDF haven't managed to find it yet after nearly 2 weeks. Figure that out.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432608#Comment_121432608

They've been doing it towards the Palestinians for years.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433390#Comment_121433390

And everyone else as far as I can tell.In Britain we had 1066 and before that Boudicca. There were genocides in the North I would call them.

We were all exceptionally mistreated (but the Jews indeed suffered the most ,long term and short term-this latest atrocity is probably just par for the course,sadly)

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433272#Comment_121433272

Another strawman.

We've said on here that no one within the thread is actively supporting Hamas.

If you had to go to a district council meeting in California to find evidence of someone publicly doing so, it says a lot more to than you think.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433367#Comment_121433367

I will yeah. Of course.

I'll do so immediately after you show broadcasts calling the validity of the letter in to account from similar outlets.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433431#Comment_121433431

You misunderstand. When Mandated Palestine was divided into Arab and Jewish States the Jews in the Arab part had to leave as too.

Between 1948 and 1970 approximately 900,000 Jews were expelled from or fled Muslim majority countries in Asia and Africa. Most of them resettled in Israel.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433409#Comment_121433409

Specifics please.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433404#Comment_121433404

Do you think the absence of a Bond Villain type Layer means that there was no command centre there? You do know that computers and guns and all that stuff can be carried, right?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433404#Comment_121433404

They did find it, but because it had been cleared out, we were told it wasn't a command centre. If forensic evidence points to its use as a command centre, the story will shift again. Remember, from the start, we were told by the doctors, no Hamas, no tunnels in the hospital. That was the first lie.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433491#Comment_121433491

Carried away??? In full view of all the IDF and their helicopters eye in the sky etc??

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433363#Comment_121433363

A war is a war.

However, I wouldn't advocate nuking anywhere, regardless of context.

Hiroshima happened, and it was required. More citizens were killed than in Gaza. Remember by then, Japan was the only one left in the war and it was no longer a world war as most of the other protagonists had surrendered.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433359#Comment_121433359

That would mean kinship with Jews though, wouldn't it? They were gassed rather than gaslit by their oppressors though.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433514#Comment_121433514

You do know that, despite what the Doctors said, there were tunnels under the hospital, right? They are big but I don't think you'd fit a helicopter into one... but you'd fit a few chaps with AK47's over their shoulders and a laptop under their arms.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433492#Comment_121433492

It is not possible that there was no command centre there?? It it not possible that this was just an excuse for the IDF to fire on the hospital, prevent people from going there for treatment and causing as much disruption as possible to the people of Gaza??

The onus is on the IDF to prove it was there and they haven't done that. They cannot justify their attacks on the hospital.

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433520#Comment_121433520

It would also mean ignoring that the Jews were forcibly removed from their land first... oops!

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433525#Comment_121433525

According to some of the posters here there's hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza so there should be no problem for the IDF to find them and go in and rid out Hamas from them. Have they done that?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433532#Comment_121433532

There is a huge credibility issue for those who defend Hamas on here. There were no tunnels, they said, there were no Hamas in hospitals they said, there were no tunnels under hospitals they said, there were only tunnels but not rooms under hospitals they said, all of that was wrong, all of that was lies.

Now we are told that the rooms in tunnels under the hospitals (remember these didn't exist two weeks ago) were not used as command centres, and we are all supposed to still believe that? Balance of probabilities, given the experience of the last two weeks, is that those who defend Hamas are lying again.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433542#Comment_121433542

Do you have any clue about the use of tunnels in warfare? How they are defended, how they are attacked?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433492#Comment_121433492

Talking about stories shifting, Ros Atkins showing the inconsistencies in Israel's story around the command center narrative.

Note the difference between the CGI that Nethanyahu himself broadcast as evidence before the entered the hospital versus what was actually found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srp5r2e-5qo&ab_channel=TonyGreenstein

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433542#Comment_121433542

And according to CNN and the USA and Israel and Hamas themselves... but I'm sure you're right, whatever it is you're actually saying.

What do you think the IDF are doing in Gaza if they aren't looing for tunnels and Hamas infrastructure. Have aa good think about that now.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433551#Comment_121433551

Yes and apparently its very scary and much more difficult than bombing the hospital.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433359#Comment_121433359

But, every Easter the Irish were reminded how awful the Jews were. Wasn't till John Paul II put a stop to the official RCC blessing of that nonsense.

Old habits die hard, Jews are the villains in the fundamental event of Christianity as chronicled by the RCC (and others.) It's easy to develop 'kinship' with people perceived to be oppressed by a group you're taught from birth to hate.

Irish have no special victimhood when it comes to being expelled. Every religious group has been expelled - Jews, Catholics by Protestants, Protestants by Catholic, Hindus by Moslems, Moslems by Hindus, and on and on. But, in Ireland, we're 'one with Palestine' but not one with, say, Moslems in India or Hindus in Pakistan, even Afghans in Pakistan.

Because we're taught to hate Jews.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433459#Comment_121433459

Its not up to me to prove a negative.

That is not how this works.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433557#Comment_121433557

So there are tunnels under the hospital? Weren't you telling us 100 pages ago that there wasn't because the doctors said so?

Ulixes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433532#Comment_121433532

What was the motive for the IDF to attack the hospital if there was no Hamas presence there? Was it just because the evil Jew does that sort of thing? Did those nasty hook-nosed Jews decide that they would just attack a hospital and risk have a PR disaster because their evilness overrode their conniving nature? Are Jews, sorry, "The Jew" really that nasty? Thank goodness there's not a whiff of anti-Semitism framing this discussion!!

Oh, and who was shooing back at them? Was that the same doctors who said there were no tunnels or were they shooting at themselves? Was it the same IDF members that shot the kids at the Rave? Maybe it was Bill Gates or the Illuminate. Are the Lizard People in on this as well?!

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433575#Comment_121433575

"We're taught to hate Jews."

This is complete balderdash.

The far right who were out causing chaos the other night in East Wall and Clondalkin were screaming "Fcuk Palestine".

Perhaps these racists are actually the true anti-racists...

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432609#Comment_121432609

Did you ever find evidence of people changing their profiles, posting in support of Hamas as you claim in the days before Israel started attacking Gaza civilians.

You made this claim several weeks ago and were asked to show people supporting Hamas on the day of the attack and to my knowledge, you never showed evidence of what it is you were claiming.

You asked me to produce evidence to support my comment last nigh about conversations in the days after Oct 7tht, which I did, so maybe you can show the same.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433516#Comment_121433516

It is not a good lesson though I think to deal with any conflict, people would not advocate a destruction of a city in most modern wars. Time has moved on from the 1940s.

If a war is just a war then why do people judge Russians for their actions more than say Israels. We do that because there are expectations on how wars are fought.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433577#Comment_121433577

I'll take that of confirmation of my point that you saw no such evidence.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433653#Comment_121433653

Just go back to the start of this thread to see posts supporting Hamas from October 7th? It's not that hard

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433657#Comment_121433657

Russia and Hamas are the aggressors under international law.

Ukraine and Israel are acting in self-defence under international law.

That is why Russia is judged differently to Israel. There are different aspects to international law, depending on whether you are aggressor or acting in self-defence.

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433306#Comment_121433306

Nice attempt at history, but a lot of info/context missing. By 1900 the population was about 500,000 Arab and 22,000 Jews in the area that was Palestine. The Zionist movement had already been established by 1900 with the aim of creating a Jewish state in that area and they encouraged Jew to emigrate to that area. What evidence is there that the population increase was down to Zionist money? Regardless, by the time the British mandate was introduced, Jews still made up less than 10% of the population.

During WW1 the British made promises to 3 different groups based on the fall of the Ottoman empire, 1. They promised the Arabs an independent state of their own. 2. They signed the Sykes-Picot agreement with the French to carve up the Arab lands between themselves. 3 They introduced the Balfour declaration which promised the Zionists their own state in the area. As can be seen, these promises were contradictory and not realistic.

Much of the post WW1 peace treaty was about self-determination and the rights of ethnic/national groups to form their own countries....as long as they did not interfere with British/French or Italian interests too much. So in Europe, we seen the creation of countries that never existed before like Czechslovakia/Yugoslavia and the re-emergence of countries that had not existed for over 100 years, Poland/Lithuania etc. As part of this nation building, there was a commission of enquiry into the claims for a new state with representatives sent to establish the potential of any new state, this was led by Woodrow Wilson, the US President who was kind of a referee between all the major nations, Britain, France, Italy.

During the discussions at the conference, the British were bullish about having Palestine as a mandate as Balfour had promised it to the Zionists. The following extract is take from a book Paris 1919, by Margaret MacMillan about the Paris Peace conference.

"And Zionism" said Balfour "be it right or wrong, good or bad is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs or in future hopes of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit the land"

Wilson nevertheless insisted that his Commission of Inquiry into the Middle-East include Palestine. The two American Commissioners, reported back at the end of the summer of 1919 that the Arabs in Palestine were "emphatically" against the entire Zionist program and recommended that the Peace conference limit Jewish immigration and give up the idea of making Palestine a Jewish homeland. Nobody paid the slightest attention.

During the Paris Peace conference, Faisal who represented the Arabs was under the impression that any independent Arab state would consist of modern day Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, but due to the self-interests of the British/French and the Sykes-Picot agreement, no independent state was forthcoming with the French being given the mandate for Syria/Lebanon with Faisal as nominal king of Syria and the British convinced him to give up any claim on Palestine which they had ear-marked for the Zionists. So off the 3 agreements made during the war, the only one not kept was that to the Arabs. Britain/France put their own interests ahead of the Arabs.

Jewish emigration to Palestine continued as promised under the British mandate until the point that conflicts broke out, and then the British realising the problems they had created tried to stop Jewish arrivals in Palestine and were reluctant to see the creation of Israel at the end of the mandate as they knew it would be a mess. The UN went ahead and recognised Israel despite every other country in the region being opposed with the Palestinian Arabs again having no input and here we are still wondering how this is still a mess.