Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445574#Comment_121445574

One of the main points the lawyer makes is that the UK right wing press are no friends of Israel. It's all performative put on nonsense for clicks and sales...quite a few of them probably 'are' anti-Semitic or have anti-Semitic friends and privately couldn't give a toss about Israel. Yes, they are that cynical.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445595#Comment_121445595

Well thats a separate point and difficult to state any thing with certainty.

For the lawyer to say that it is 'all' performative? Really?

Then undermine that claim with quite a few... some etc etc etc

But thats a red flag that those are weasel words which undermine the claim.

Im sure there are some people in journalism who approach issues purely based on sales. And there could be other reasons why Israels conduct is defended ... out of solidarity for being possible targets of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You could be even more cynical than that, and theorise that it is possible to be pro Israel, approve of a secure homeland for Jews and yet also indulge in a sort of weak snobbish anti semitism based on a superiority complex.

As opposed to Hamas or SS kill all the Jews levels of anti semitism based on hate.

This lawyer seems to big on grand declarations and short on specifics.. i would be very doubtful of any such general declarations from that source.

NSAman

If every man woman and child in Athlone was killed by another outside state what would be the reaction of Ireland?

that’s what has happened in Gaza

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445521#Comment_121445521

It means that because Israel says that's what it means

In reality that's not what it means at all.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445559#Comment_121445559

Remember kids

This is what Israel claims is "targeted bombing"

https://twitter.com/k7ybnd99/status/1730858204177768888?t=JQl5KjpmjhEavU-BJs6cEw&s=19

Rezident

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445653#Comment_121445653

After October 7, the chant “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” has taken on a much more ominous tone. Who could now trust the good intentions of those reciting that chant?

Everybody knows what it really means.

NSAman

1.7 Million Gazan’s are now homeless.

15000 people killed 5000 of those Children.

israel is under attack…? I don’t condone ANY attack on Israel, but the above just shows Israel’s intent, wipe out Gaza.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445693#Comment_121445693

The stated goal of wiping out Hamas isn't realistic anyhow

There's probably plenty more been radicalised now

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445710#Comment_121445710

Agreed you cannot wipe out an ideology!

israel is no longer the “victim” in all this…they are the aggressor and a genocide is happening.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445631#Comment_121445631

"Bridie, where's Athlone?"

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445521#Comment_121445521

it doesn't mean kill the jews, it's simply the hardline supporters of israel are trying to claim that it does, when the reality is that jews have always lived in palestine.

it's another hasbara tactic on the failed list.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445666#Comment_121445666

It means the same now as it dis 20 years ago, care to show your posts of outrage when israelis have said it?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445767#Comment_121445767

I'd say many (certainly not all) chanting that on the march in Dublin believe this:

In 2021, the Palestinian-American writer Yousef Munayyer argued that those who saw genocidal ambition in the phrase, or indeed an unambiguous desire for the destruction of Israel, did so due to their own Islamophobia.

It was instead, he argued, merely a way to express a desire for a state in which “Palestinians can live in their homeland as free and equal citizens, neither dominated by others nor dominating them”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/from-the-river-to-the-sea-where-does-the-slogan-come-from-and-what-does-it-mean-israel-palestine

When Palestinians chant it, it's death to the Jews. When an current Israeli PM has a similar phrase in their party's founding charter it's... Well nobody supporting this war on Hamas (war on Gaza) seems to be able to say what that means.

cheese sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445767#Comment_121445767

Do you think Hamas’s actions have improved the chances of a single state solution?

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445521#Comment_121445521

You'd imagine there's a good few useful idiots in the mix.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445574#Comment_121445574

In my opinion, the vast, vast , majority of the criticism of the IDF is because of the large number of civilians killed, the displacement of a million people from their homes, the bombing of homes and hospitals. Everyone I know was disgusted at the actions of Hamas and sympathised with Israel. Practically all think that what the IDF is doing now is indefensible. It is sad to see people having simple empathy being smeared as being anti semitic

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445804#Comment_121445804

does it matter? even if hamas didn't exist israel would find some excuse to genocide the palestinians and they would never except a single state or even a 2 state.

they just want as much land as they can get and they will slaughter as many as possible to get it.

cheese sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445870#Comment_121445870

Of course it matters, apologists for rape and murder like you don’t want to face the consequences of Hamas’ actions.

The virulent anti-semitism of Hamas gives the Israeli right wing an excuse to refuse to talk to the Palestinians. The extremes on both sides reinforce each other.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445791#Comment_121445791

We shouldn't have people here in the civilized world shouting genocidal chants, and the only ones doing it here are the Palestinians and their simps.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445912#Comment_121445912

I would agree. But that does not make the Israeli killing of civilians in the thousands right. I think the marchers were against these uncivlised actions too.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445874#Comment_121445874

if anyone is an appologist for rape and murder, it is the hardline supporters of israel and their genocidal beliefs who support them no matter what and make excuses that are so easily debunked in a matter of seconds, for said behaviour.

there is no dispute on the type of organisation hamas is, but israel created them and in terms of rape and murder the israely government and IDF, along with the illegal israely settlers of the west bank, have committed crimes that outnumber the level of hamas by billions of miles.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445912#Comment_121445912

6 residential blocks bombed, god knows how many innocent civilians dead but we have people whinging about words

https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1730994415274279193?t=XmdFnfH-Vv-jfqbXmmilug&s=19

tayto lover

Israel's War on Children ramps up.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446039#Comment_121446039

Plenty of future Hamas recruited after that.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440980#Comment_121440980

Peace talks. never mind an actual peace, does not suit Hamas....the more havoc, death and destruction the better for them. They need to be able to show Israel in the worst possible light, to whip up condemnation against them, the more the better, and their plan is working.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442393#Comment_121442393

I've worked in many similar situations (Syria, Afghanistan, Libya etc.) and with Palestinians also, great people to work with as individuals. In all these places, I've not had my throat slit, but for sure, there were people around who would have slit it if they had the chance. I've worked with people who did in fact go on to kill later on. The moral is that it's not the 99% you need to watch out for it's the 1% (or even less)

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446087#Comment_121446087

I'm not saying Hamas represents all Palestinians, even all Gazans. They represent Hamas (and their masters like Iran.) The Gazans need to represent themselves, not through Hamas. Find a different way, unless they want to keep up the status quo.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446039#Comment_121446039

Of course I'm winging about those words being spoken here. I don't want to be living among this kind of people. How long will it take to go from words to deeds? Have we learned nothing?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445693#Comment_121445693

So because Israel are 'better at war' ( for want of a better phrase) that makes you anti Israel?

If Israel sat back and allowed Hamas to keep firing rockets at them, keep kidnapping their people and holding them hostage, then would your sympathy lie with Israel?

rolling boh

I think nearly all believe that Hamas have to be beaten but Israel have the ability to be a lot more precise in their pursuit of Hamas .The statements from Israel about trying to minimise civilian casualties is simply not true and lends weight to the argument that they really want to eliminate as many Palestinians as the can using the war on Hamas as an excuse .

Rezident

From the river to the sea...

What does it really mean?

The United Kingdom’s Labour Party suspended Member of Parliament Andy McDonald for using the phrase “between the river and the sea” in a speech at a pro-Palestinian rally.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446341#Comment_121446341

Care to show your posts of outrage when Israelis said it?

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446396#Comment_121446396

Israel are better at war because the US pays for everything.

You do realise that Gaza is surrounded by a massive fence? The most heavily surveilled fence on the planet?

you do also realise that Israel also has “kidnapped” people from Gaza, except they call them prisoners?

You also realise that Israel have unlimited latest weaponry? Sending rockets into Gaza a territory that has no water/electricity/fuel without Israel’s say so?

it’s like David and Galliath.

my sympathies lie with innocents on both sides.

Do I agree with Israel’s policies or forcible removal of property rights? No!

Do I agree with Israel’s policies on Palestinian elimination? Do I agree with shooting kids and women and men in cold blood because they are just Palestinians? No.

Likewise I do not agree with Hamas causing death in Israel.

Israel its politicians and some settlers are behaving like, they themselves were treated a few short years ago.

of all the people they should understand what they are doing.

Rezident

"From the river to the sea...'

The Football Association in the UK has banned players from using the slogan on their private social media accounts.

Seems to be a good idea to ban the slogan that is popular with Hamas, the hospital-based death cult. Sad and shameful to see so many screaming it, in their hatred, today on the streets of Dublin. The message was depressingly clear.

Seems to be a lot of hatred on the streets of Dublin these days. Much easier to blame all problems on some outsiders rather than getting your own house in order. I predict Dublin to significantly deteriorate even further with all of this hatred. No good can come from it.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446421#Comment_121446421

Which version? The Israeli version.... Well here's a visual aid:

Pretty self explanatory there. It's even colour coded.

The Palestinian version, I've already posted a comment earlier with a link to a guardian article with various meanings of it.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446269#Comment_121446269

Yes, and there have been anti-Hamas outbursts, which were quickly suppressed. it's the perfect storm situation for them, and Israeli bombing is driving even moderate (and possibly anti-Hamas) Palestinians deeper into Hamas clutches. Before Hamas attacked Israel on the 7th there had to be many Palestinians who knew from past experience that there would be an Israeli response, as has always been the case in the past, but with the responses graduated to match the level of the attack. But there's no going back from the brutalities of the 7th. Just a thought, supposing that the Israelis' saw the attack on the 7th for what it was, and decided no, we are not going to fall into your trap. We will not respond. I wonder what the outcome would have been like then? A Hamas so discredited that it would be the end of them Globally? Too hot a brand even for the Iranians?

Rezident

Austrian police took a similar stance, banning a pro-Palestine protest on the basis of the chant and claiming that the slogan, originally formulated by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), had been adopted by the armed group Hamas.

German authorities declared the slogan forbidden and indictable.

As the slogan is now taken by Hamas to mean: 'Kill all the Jews in Israel' (is that just for starters?), why were so many people in Dublin today screaming a slogan that is widely understood to mean: Kill all Jews?

You know it is taken to mean this, so why do you want to be seen saying (screaming, roaring) such hatred?

How do you feel inside when you say it? Some of you looked very angry today. I can still see the angry girl with the loudspeaker screaming her hatred in Dublin. I feel like you are making Dublin, and the world, a worse place.

Would you not rather make the world a better place? One with less hatred? It really is the very last thing we need more of right now.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446495#Comment_121446495

So, yes, basically because Israel are better at defending themselves and at 'war' you are anti Israel.

the big fence is called a border, lots of countries have them, there's one between Gaza and Egypt.

it's exactly because of the way Israel has been treated since the beginning of their existence and the way the Jewish people have always been treated, that they behave as they do. They have to be 'better ' then everyone else, in order to survive.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446439#Comment_121446439

I'll try again: I don't want people cheering genocide living in the same country as I do, I care about this way more than I care about what happens in the middle east, simply because these people are a threat to us and to our society. No one is doing anything to them here, but jews are again, almost 100 years later, felling unsafe in Europe.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446396#Comment_121446396

Some people seem to be incapable of having any sympathy for Israel. If they stop fighting back, they will be annihilated. Hamas have said over and over that they won't stop attacking them. Not sure what Israel are supposed to do to keep them happy tbh. Say "ok we give up. All of us Jews will leave and you can have the land back" or what like? What is their solution? They never come up with any besides Israel stopping fighting. Never Hamas, just Israel.

Tell me how

The outrage over the 'From the River to the Sea' phrase is gaslighting on an international level.

The same phrase is used in Likuds founding manifesto but there is no suggestion of that being inappropriate by the people using it to justify the butcher of Palestinians. This despite it going on to say that in that area there would 'only be Israeli sovereignty'.

A genocide is being carried out in front of our eyes. Israel is now bombing in to oblivion the area they told people to move to for the last 6 weeks.

I feel such disgust for the people who are ok with this and I can't describe what I think of those who encourage it.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446580#Comment_121446580

Even taken at its most benign meaning of not genociding Jewish people, that chant means Israel, the country, not existing anymore. If a person is chanting for literally the only Jewish nation in the world not to exist, they might want to ask themselves why, or whether that is a good thing for the world or for jews.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446704#Comment_121446704

I've given detailed solutions that if they were adopted by all groups could lead to peace, I've posted it several times so saying people never come up with solutions is just plain false. These solutions included the targeting and removal of Hamas.

Israel is supported by the US, and several of the other most powerful and influential countries on the planet, they are at no risk of being annihilated.

This conflict was facilitated by Nethanyahu's desire to see Hamas enabled and emboldened as Israel continued to persecute Palestinians, steal their lands and ignore any sort of international condemnation for their actions.

They are doing nothing at this point but recruiting for future waves of Hamas fighters with every child they now shoot in the head and every Dr and journalist they drop a bomb on. And all while genocide apologists say that Hamas is the problem. We're watching Israel put the support and security of Jewish people worldwide at risk for the next 10-20 years and everyone who is supporting their disproportionate violence is complicit in this. Everyone.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446609#Comment_121446609

" I don't want people cheering genocide living in the same country as I do"

You're not so calm down .

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446520#Comment_121446520

Is there a legal basis for that ban

Didn't Gary Lineker prevail in a similar situation

Weepsie

From the river to the sea was not solely about Israel and never was when it was created. It was also about interference fo other Arab nations. It has a pretty benign origin and can still be benign in peaceful protests such as those we see in most major cities at the moment.

Nobody is calling for the elimination of the state of Israel, or nobody that anybody is giving a moments thought too. There are some outliers there, extremists nutters, but they also want to see all of the Muslims eliminated too in my experience because they're not just antisemitic, they're anti islam, xenophobes, racists ,etc etc

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446704#Comment_121446704

Do you honestly believe if Israel stopped fighting/bombing Gaza for say a week, a month that Israel would be overrun by 50k Hamas charging into Tel Aviv slaughtering people?

All Israel have to do is defend their border and Hamas are not going to be pulling another 7 Oct again. Israel is not under an imminent threat from Hamas. I'm baffled how you think Israel could be annihilated by Hamas. Is that the justification you use when you see the thousand of dead children in Gaza, Israel had to do that because any second Hamas is going to annihilate Israel.

It's like a mad panic to level Gaza ASAP. Dropping 2000lb bombs as fast as they can reload the jets. Even the Americans were surprised that 90% of the bombs dropped the first week were 2000lb, they have smaller ones which are more suitable to reduce collateral damage. Assuming Israel were looking to reduce colleratal damage.

Don't get me wrong Hamas has to go, there's zero chance of peace in Gaza or Israel with Hamas still in the picture. But a calmer, more clinical way of eliminating Hamas has to be key. Leveling an apartment block killing 100 civilians to kill 1 Hamas fighter is not the bloody way to do it.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446722#Comment_121446722

We all know why the Jewish religion was the only one in the world to be granted its own country.

It should never have happened but rather all other countries should have been encouraged to welcome support Jewish people who already existed with their own community.

The same people who are willing for countries to go to war to prevent the foundation of an Islamic Caliphate justifying the butchering of Palestinians to somehow safeguard a Jewish state is just bewildering.

412 US Representatives voted last week that anti-zionism equals antisemitism. If they feel that strongly about it, do you think they should give up 6% of the state of Montana to create a New Israel of the same size? At least then they won't have to contend with neighbours annoyed at how they persecute and invade them.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446766#Comment_121446766

Hamas is the excuse.

Genocide is the goal.

Israel has no interest in peace, only the redundancy of the 2 state conversation through the obliteration of the Palestinian people.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446609#Comment_121446609

Are they? There's actually been quite a few Jewisj people at the Dublin and London protests with "Jews against genocide" banner.

There's been rhetoric directed at the state of Israel and it's leaders, but there's been no overy antisemitism or general anti Jewish sentiment.

They're not anti Jewish protests

They're protests against the mass killing of 1000s of women and children, the continued displacement of people from their land and the general had it up to here with forcing 2 million people to live in what is basically a prison state. All of this carried out by the instruments of a sovereign state.