Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Fr D Maugire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446601#Comment_121446601

As has been pointed out to you before, it was the Zionists wish to go and create a state in that part of the world with full knowledge that everyone there was opposed to the creation of such a state. As was discussed in the last few days, the great powers of the time simply ignored the recommendations of a Commission of Enquiry in 1919 that suggested that the idea of a Zionist state in the region was a non-runner. Everyone in that region was always opposed for obvious reasons, but it was western powers who pushed it through. The Zionists were fighting with the locals long before the creation of Israel and knew they would have to fight for their existence from day 1. Pretending this was some completely unexpected or unjust thing for Israel is just silly. Ultimately it was their choice.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446601#Comment_121446601

So, yes, basically because Israel are better at defending themselves and at 'war' you are anti Israel.

BS

Link

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says

Not to mention Nethanyahu's strategy with Hamas

Link

Netanyahu emboldened Hamas over the years

Another thread that contributed to this moment is the way in which Netanyahu has dealt with Hamas over his years in power.

"He didn't have a straight-out policy and the prime minister obviously now denies it in hindsight," Schneider said. "But we know as reporters who have been following this for many years. They wanted to weaken the Palestinian Authority."

"Netanyahu, in order to get Mahmoud Abbas to be smaller and to humiliate him politically, they managed to give Hamas some sort of leverage," Schneider said.

Israel isn't defending itself, it is butchering Palestinians.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446520#Comment_121446520

The FA has banned pretty much any political slogan. This is nothing new. Pep Guardiola was reprimanded for wearing a symbol representing catalan independence. They'll make you wear the poppy though in a head bending double standard

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446601#Comment_121446601

Jewish people aren't better than other people.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446813#Comment_121446813

Do you have an issue with Muslim countries?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446980#Comment_121446980

No. Nor Hindu, or Buddhist, or Christian either.

But there's a difference between a country formed for a religion than there being dominant religions in countries.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446854#Comment_121446854

Everyone in the region? Including those that sold their lands and properties to Jewish people?

Jewish people have lived in the middle East and North Africa for thousands of years. Until the other countries expelled them to Israel.

Everyone in that region was always opposed for obvious reasons, 

What do you mean by this? What obvious reasons?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446396#Comment_121446396

Better at war?? Better at murdering children for sure.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446903#Comment_121446903

Did someone suggest they are?

Tell me how

For the people saying that no one is offering any solutions, this is the post I posted first at the end of October, and then again in mid-November.

The bit in bold is what I've added in this edition.

For Israel

1. Immediate ceasefire
2. Target Hamas leadership directly using Mossad
3. Call for international support to use sanctions to target Hamas funders
4. With draw from illegal settlements
5. Stop effective occupation of Gaza
6. Remove Nethanyahu
7. Show that they support a two state solution
8. Release all Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails without charge

For Palestine

1. Recover
2. Demand international support
3. Hold elections
4. Remove Hamas
5. Show that they support a two state solution
6. Release all hostages

For US

1. Demand an immediate and permanent ceasefire
2. Enforce sanctions to target Hamas funders
3. Support rebuild and development of Palestine
4. Show that they support a two state solution

For EU

1. Demand an immediate and permanent ceasefire
2. Enforce sanctions to target Hamas funders
3. Support rebuild and development of Palestine
4. Show that they support a two state solution

For UN

1. Remove abilities for countries to Veto resolutions
2. Enforce sanctions to target Hamas funders
3. Run elections in Gaza within 3 years
4. Prioritize a two state solution
5. Manage an international peacekeeping task force to operate in Gaza, the West Bank and other areas targeted by Israeli settlers to mitigate attacks from all who seek to do so. Hamas, IDF, settlers whoever. Task forces to stay in place until the development of a two state solution plan signed by all relevant parties is being implemented and can be wound down dependent on progress thereafter.

suvigirl

There will be no international peacekeepers put in Gaza.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447084#Comment_121447084

Says who?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446711#Comment_121446711

Ridiculous stuff. "From the River to the Sea" as promulgated by Hamas and their apologists is genocidal. Pretending it is something else is completely disingenuous.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1202/1419678-sudan/

If you want an idea of what would happen were Hamas to succeed, take a look at Sudan.

"What he feared then would occur, has occurred and is continuing, he said.

"That is the mass killing of non-Arab civilians in Darfur. Nobody cares," he added."

The ideology of Hamas, of some Arab states, of some Muslim countries includes the elimination or enslavement of others. Not just Sudan, just look at places like Dubai, built on the enslavement of ordinary people from places like Bangladesh.

If that isn't enough for you, consider the approach to women and LGBTQ+.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447057#Comment_121447057

Putting release hostages at 6 on the list of things that Palestinians need to do is an effective endorsement of the war crime of taking the hostages. Unless that is first and top of every list, then there won't be peace.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447165#Comment_121447165

Doesn't look that way to me.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447057#Comment_121447057

How can Israel have a ceasefire and target Hamas?

Falls at the the first hurdle, contradicts itself repeatedly, wills the ends but not the means.

Eg Palestinians remove Hamas... how?

Eg what does Israel, US and EU do if Hamas ignore demands for elections and ceasefire?

Thats not a practical solution, it is a list of aspirations.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447088#Comment_121447088

Seriously? No one will risk sending them in, the way the region is so unstable.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447165#Comment_121447165

So how to defeat them then?

Israel are the only ones trying to stop them

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447248#Comment_121447248

In fairness Hamas are attacking only Israel as far I can tell. May as well ask why didn't France try stop the IRA

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447147#Comment_121447147

But it is something else. This history behind the chant is not that at alll, and it's also not a direct translation. It's been weaponised by people from both sides since, Some of who have chosen to take offence, and then some who have seen that and doubled down.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447278#Comment_121447278

Ok, so why the issue with Israel trying to stop them then?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447338#Comment_121447338

I don't have an issue with Israel trying to defeat them . You mustn't have read my posts, if you believe i have any affection for them. But I don't think a third party should intervene in the conflict even if Hamas are killing civilians. Would you want Egypt to intervene now that Israel is killing civilians wholesale?

I am only against the barbaric way Israel is conducting their operation against hamas not their objective.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447338#Comment_121447338

I think the main issue may be the impossibility of eradicating Hamas from Gaza unless there is a hidden majority opposed to them ready to assume charge when they are defeated and to (with external help) guard against a resurgence.

Even if this is somehow possible (I have heard of no plans for achieving it) it looks to me like there may be elements in the present Israeli government opposed to coexistence of any sort with the Palestinians. (even if Hamas was extinguished-which I feel is very unlikely)

I hope I am wrong in this .It is just an impression and likely badly informed.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447248#Comment_121447248

Do you actually believe that there will be no members of Hamas left when this is over? They've been bombing the place to bits night and day for 6 weeks and reckon that they have killed less than 2,000 of them. Yet over 15,000 have died and 6,000 of them children. Do you see nothing wrong there?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447248#Comment_121447248

Israel aren't trying to defeat Hamas. Yet.

They're using them to justify the genocide of Palestine. Then they'll defeat them.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447244#Comment_121447244

That is literally where peacekeepers go.

I'm not talking about right now as Israel bombs everything it can, but immediately after a permanent ceasefire is announced.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447175#Comment_121447175

Hamas is like any other army, it is led by leadership. Target the leadership who sanctioned the Oct 7th attacks any any who do genuinely want to end Israel.

But I bet the vast majority of Hamas are like any other people, they mostly want to believe that they can live a life of safety, freedom, hope and prosperity and the way to stop them listening to the radicals is to show them that is possible. And Israel can do this more than anyone else.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447410#Comment_121447410

That's the problem, some people don't seem to care that 15,000 civilians have been killed and only 2,000 Hamas. Maybe they are ok with 375,000 dead civilians (150,000 children) based on the ratio so far. They need that magical 40:1 ratio first 🤷🏻‍♂️

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447367#Comment_121447367

What other way would you suggest? Considering Hamas leaders are living in other countries, Hamas operatives live in Gaza, in the middle of civilians, Hamas operatives operate in tunnels under Gaza, Hamas operatives have the entire population either onside or terrified of being seen to be opposite Hamas because they will torture/kill them?

How would you suggest defeating Hamas?

Also what 3rd party?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447416#Comment_121447416

That's your biased opinion

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447410#Comment_121447410

Trying to defeat Hamas is utterly futile. Britain - a nation of 65m people and one of the richest countries in the world - spent nearly 40 years trying to eradicate the IRA and yet in 1996/97, the IRA was still as strong as ever and able to mount massive truck bomb attacks in the UK.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447417#Comment_121447417

no they do not go to unstable regions.

It would be a long time after a long ceasefire

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447438#Comment_121447438

If my children were killed in the manner we've seen in these past weeks, I would want nothing more than to inflict the same on the person who killed them.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447449#Comment_121447449

Ah apologies I thought you meant other countries should help stop hamas.

I cant suggest a way to stop a terrorist group like Hamas as I'm no anti terrorist expert. Any other way is better then killing multiple children for every enemy combatant. It's worrying that Israel despite these results have continued using the same methods and that the Israeli population hasn't objected to them.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447432#Comment_121447432

Your post makes no sense.

How can Israel have a ceasefire while still attacking ?

Thats not a ceasefire. It is literally the exact opposite of a ceasefire so in your first two points you have already contradicted yourself and removed any credibility.

Why didnt the Allies just take out the Nazi leadership if its the obvious thing to do? Didnt Germans want to live in safety and freedom? Apparently it is how you defeat one army like any other.

In your list, it just assumes Hamas and its allies will sit there passively doing nothing while everyone else puts plans in motion against them to target Hamas and remove them.

It is no solution at all.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447474#Comment_121447474

That's why I reckon Hamas will be actually just as strong after all this ends. They will have more recruits every day the bombs rain down and innocent people die. If Israel treated the Palestinians like human beings instead of human animals they would do better. Stop brutalising them and maybe they will start showing more respect. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447458#Comment_121447458

It's your biased opinion that I am wrong.

Nethanyahu on how supporting Hamas would help Israel prevent a Palestinian state. Link

“Whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state,” The Jerusalem Post quoted Prime Minister Netanyahu as saying in 2019.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447488#Comment_121447488

There's a fcuking gigantic difference between the indiscriminate dropping of 1000's of pounds of bombs and the focused targeting of individuals using special forces or the likes. We've had people on here today saying that the shooting of kids in Palestine by the IDF didn't constitute breaking the ceasefire because the terms of the ceasefire didn't specifcally say that that was included.

And if you're comparing targeting Nazi leadership in the 1940's with this 1/4 of the way in to the 21st century as Israel tells Palestinians not to resist using drones, I don't know what to tell you.

And the allies did attempt to assassinate Hitler, operation Foxley was one such plan.

I'm not doing the same thing again tonight in explaining every minute thing to you so you can take or leave my post as it is unless you want to offer reasonable counter points or alternative solutions.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447476#Comment_121447476

I agree it's far from ideal, or in anyway something that anyone wants. But that's the problem, how do they stop Hamas? There is no doubt that stopping them would be beneficial for Israelis and Palestinians alike. But how will that happen? Netanyahu is definitely not the answer

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447505#Comment_121447505

That's why I don't buy the narrative that Israel is not trying to wipe out Palestine, but only target Hamas.

Even the ardent Israel supporters, Tommy Robinson and the likes make a living on the messaging that defending ones own country is the paramount calling. Same in US with right wing conservatives who talk about defending their culture from the invading immigrants. The implication being that fighting people they see as invaders is acceptable.

And yet here, they cheer Israel on just because their opponents are on a lower level on the Race Pyramid in their eyes.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447506#Comment_121447506

I'm no fan of Netanyahu, but how do you stop a terrorist organisation, intent on annihilating Israel?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447532#Comment_121447532

I mean even calling it far from ideal is a bit pithy, though im sure you didnt mean it to sound that way. I wouldn't justify the hamas massacre because of perceived injustices against the Palestinians so why do Israeli supporters try to underplay the civilian deaths in Gaza, especially death of children by their operations.

There seems a lot of selective outrage at the killing of civilians depending on whose side they are on.

Israel compared the 7 October attack to their 911 but they should remember there was alot of anti American sentiment for a number of years among the general population in many friendly countries because of the brutality of their response. Israel will no doubt claim victory when this operation ends but this will colour international opinion of them for many years.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447542#Comment_121447542

You show that you are willing to support a path to a two state solution.

You don't antagonize through the use of blockades, nuisance security checkpoints, segregated roads and settlement encroachment and the likes.

You support the PLO given that they only narrowly lost the elections 17 years ago to Hamas and who are not driven to violence as Hamas are.

We know in Ireland that peace finally came not because all those who were intent on violence were removed, they weren't but with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, the majority chose the peaceful path and the minority were left to form the Real IRA. Still violent, still inflicted pain and death, but much less so and ultimately it was possible to manage that risk. And so peace came about.

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121446601#Comment_121446601

So Palestine is a country? Could you please explain that to the Israeli Government ?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447562#Comment_121447562

The problem is hamas will never choose peace. Ever. They keep saying this over and over, I don't why you aren't listening to them.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447562#Comment_121447562

Does any party in Palestinian areas that support a 2 State solution have any chance of political success.

No.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447523#Comment_121447523

You are a million miles away now from what you originally started with.

A ceasefire that isnt a ceasefire.

The Allies didnt and couldnt just end the war by taking out the Nazi leadership. It did not work out that way did it? They had to fight to Berlin. So your own example already discredits your own idea.

You were the one who used vague phrases like army like any other yet cant provide any actual examples and now shift the goalposts in time - yet still referenced Hitler when it suited you.

Why hasnt Russia declared a ceasefire and ended the Ukraine war by targeting Ukrainian leadership with drones and special forces?

Why have conventional forces at all if wars can be fought this way by an "army like any other" so easily?

You dont have to explain things in 'minute' detail. Your solution fails at the first hurdles - nevermind minute details it is devoid of any detail.

Zero attempt to understand that Hamas has agency and isnt going to passively allow itself to be targeted by Israel et al. Zero attempt to explain how Palestinians just hold these elections and remove Hamas.

Those arent minute details. Those are deal breakers.

It is not any solution just a list of fantasy aspirations.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447561#Comment_121447561

I genuinely don't mean it to sound pithy, it's hard to describe. It's not ideal, it's very unwelcome, the loss of innocent lives is horrendous. I'm not trying to downplay the suffering of innocent Gaza civilians at all, I never would.

Gazan citizens are in a terrible situation, they can't be seen to go against Hamas, because they will be killed by them. They are stuck in an area where the chances of being killed by Israelis are unbelievably high. They really are innocent victims. I honestly believe that the best thing for them and Israel is the demise of Hamas. But I don't believe civilians in Gaza could ever assist in that, because of the risks against them

So what is the answer?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447569#Comment_121447569

There's no doubt a few in Hamas leadership who feel that way. The same exists in Israeli leadership with a view towards Palestine, and they say it just as loudly. Why don't you listen to them? But only one side has an army, a navy, an airforce, of the most renowned intelligence agencies in the world and billions of dollars annually from the US.

And we've seen extreme radicals in the IRA, FARC, ETA bring their use of violence to an end. The vast majority of people in Palestine, including those who make up the numbers of Hamas want nothing more than peace and security in which to live their lives.

Hamas crept in to power in 2006, they can be sidelined again if the will was there. But I've already shown how Nethanyahu didn't want that.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447562#Comment_121447562

But Israel have shown they were willing to support a 2 state solution, and they were attacked by suicide bombs and the likes from Hamas