Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Danzy · 03-12-2023 12:17am

Looks like there is pushback against Israel from an activist in Paris tonight.

Danzy · 03-12-2023 12:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447587#Comment_121447587

Ficjing hell, you really can't see any situation outside of looking through a western prism.

Not to burst your Churchill bubble but they just might have their own perspectives, outlook and views.

Sudden Valley · 03-12-2023 12:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447584#Comment_121447584

Unfortunately I have no idea. My advice on military or anti terrorism tactics would be useless. But even with a cursory knowledge of any of the anti colonist wars in Africa or Asia it is obvious that political objectives can't be won on the battlefield especially if it involves large numbers of civilian death. Hamas may disappear but those that follow them may be even worse.

The longer this operation continues the more damage it does to Israel.

Tell me how · 03-12-2023 12:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447581#Comment_121447581

Yeah, I'm not doing this again with you. I'm not going to explain everything to you in minute detail when you think the world of 2023 is the same as the world of 1940 despite all the technological advances.

Russia tried to assassinate Zelensky by the way. You're 0 for 2 with your 'what abouts'.

And your comment about why didn't Russia declare a ceasefire just reinforces for me to not engage with you on this any more. I'm out.

Tell me how · 03-12-2023 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447609#Comment_121447609

Lol. There's a hell of a lot of evidence to suggest the Western Prism is thinking you can bomb your way to a desired solution. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq are things you might consider when you are accusing people of being blinkered.

Tell me how · 03-12-2023 12:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447589#Comment_121447589

Not since Nethanyahu has been on the scene. He has said so himself.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 12:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447589#Comment_121447589

Do you believe they are still willing to support a 2 state solution now? Looks like they are actively destroying Gaza and reclaiming the West Bank now. Talk of a 'security buffer' for Gaza post war. Probably just a new term for a land grab.

03-12-2023 12:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447432#Comment_121447432

You really are sending out mixed messaging re Hamas at this stage. In one post you’re saying nobody wants them to succeed, now you’re saying the “vast majority” of Hamas are “like any other people”. What does this even mean in the context of October 7th? Are they extremists, moderates, or what?

Weepsie · 03-12-2023 12:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447589#Comment_121447589

But they were talking through their backsides each time, because they've never stopped annexing land for settlers who want to return.

suvigirl · 03-12-2023 12:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447612#Comment_121447612

I agree it's doing terrible damage to Israel, but I'm guessing from their perspective they cannot do anything other than what they are currently involved in. Netanyahu is a major block for sure.

suvigirl · 03-12-2023 12:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447634#Comment_121447634

I honestly wouldn't know, but I could understand why they wouldn't, after 50 off years of agreeing to solutions and still being attacked by those that don't agree. What can they do?

Tell me how · 03-12-2023 12:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447635#Comment_121447635

I said practically nobody outside Hamas wants them to succeed. And I said most Hamas members want to be able to live a life that is safe and free with a chance to be prosperous, like the vast amount of people on the planet. I suspect most of them have joined Hamas because of Israel's actions.

What I've written here is pretty much exactly the same as I wrote on separate posts previously. If you think that is mixed messaging, I don't know what to say to you.

Danzy · 03-12-2023 12:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447623#Comment_121447623

I don't think you are blinkered, just that you view it all through a western lens and expect them to think and act as westerners do.

One of the last vestiges of the European colonial legacy in that region was the education of their rich kids in European universities, where many of them aped their masters and went home with the latest trend of socialism, giving rise to movements like the PLO and so forth.

That colonial influence is long over and replaced by local movements steeped in their own historical beliefs rather than rich kid European Marxists or any European political perspective.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 12:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447646#Comment_121447646

Well the Israeli public voted in Netanyahu, they should share the blame like the Palestinian's voting in Hamas, right?

suvigirl · 03-12-2023 1:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447688#Comment_121447688

I don't blame the Palestinians for Hamas, the voting population in 2004 or 2005 or whenever, yes.

I understand they haven't had the option since, I also understand that any civilian that stands against them, or even seems to be opposed to them, are under serious risk. It's impossible for people in that situation. But then, what is the answer? It's obviously better for Gazan civilians to be free of Hamas, have a leadership that doesn't treat them as human shields and pawns in their game.

When it comes to Netanyahu, he has always put himself out there as the man to defend Israel against their neighbours who are out to destroy them. I'm no fan of his, but I can understand their mindset, that they believe in someone who says they will keep them safe. I'm sure there are many many Israelis that don't want him there. I spoke with an Israeli woman this time last year, or thereabouts, wherever he came back into power, and she was disgusted.

But they are all stuck with the leadership they haven't the moment, unless someone comes along that can solve it.

Danzy · 03-12-2023 1:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447726#Comment_121447726

Yoav Gallant, long time opponent of Bibi. He is the next PM there, hopefully and he'll be the next Likud leader at least.

NSAman · 03-12-2023 1:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447542#Comment_121447542

You can’t!

as with many conflicts, ideological conflicts cannot be won. It takes years, negotiations, give and take on both sides, until understanding occurs. Bombing people into submission, creates stronger ideological followers.

Israel cannot win this conflict ultimately. I’m not anti-Israel contrary to your previous statement. Israel are its people. I am anti-Israel policy in relation to the abuse of Palestinians within its borders. The Israeli government is condoning abuse of individuals. Paying vigilantes (Jewish) to steal land with IDF backing. That is not right in ANY civilised country.

There are many great Jewish people across the world who agree with me on this, yes I know others disagree.

israel has a right to defend itself but it does NOT have a right to cause genocide, to keep people in a massive concentration camps.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 1:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447749#Comment_121447749

Could be a world first having 2 consecutive head of states indicted of war crimes?

Danzy · 03-12-2023 1:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447770#Comment_121447770

Why would that happen?

Maybe Gallant was negligent in not hitting more decisively over the last month. A warning to civilians also alerts Hamas.

Arguably a mistake but civilian loss must be as small as possible.

03-12-2023 1:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447671#Comment_121447671

Claiming most Hamas members are like the vast majority of people is actually an insult to decent people and seems to show you are ridiculously naive as to their true intentions IMO. The vast majority of people wouldn’t plan or carry out October 7th.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 1:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447781#Comment_121447781

You cannot use the excuse that warning civilians warns Hamas. The onus is on Israel to preserve life and protect civilians. It's only under imminent danger where civilian casualties are accepted. Like bombing a refugee camp to take out a Hamas bunker.... the bunker was not an imminent threat to Israel. The weren't loading missiles into a launcher that Israel had to take out in a split second decision to prevent the loss of innocent Israeli lives etc...

Do you honestly believe civilian losses are as small as possible? Considering Israel has start of the art weapon systems?

Do you think Israel have minimized civilian causalities as best they can?

suvigirl · 03-12-2023 2:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447762#Comment_121447762

But they have had years of negotiations, years of 'peace ' talks. Every time they failed, it wasn't Israel that caused it. They have agreed to all negotiations.

So how can there be peace, when one side have agreed and the other side have not? How can Israel be the ones at fault, when they have always agreed to everything for the last 50 years?

why or how can they solve a problem that they didn't make?

Sudden Valley · 03-12-2023 2:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447822#Comment_121447822

Are you deliberately ignoring all the settlements built in the West bank? They are even planning on adding to these settlements now, This makes a two state solution a distant reality. I dont think when two peoples are fighting over the same land that it is honest to claim only one side has made this problem.

suvigirl · 03-12-2023 2:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447843#Comment_121447843

No, I'm not and I don't agree with the settlements, but every agreement that has been reached has been broken by others, not Israelis. They have agreed.

So, I don't agree with settlements, but I can understand why they think they are protecting themselves by doing it. Others broke agreements first, then Israelis have started illegal settlements, as a way of buffering themselves from their neighbours. It may not be right, but it is understandable.

If others agreed years ago to the agreements drawn up, Israelis would have no justification at all. As it is, they obviously feel they need to do it because they get nowhere with negotiations.

sock.rocker* · 03-12-2023 2:39am

But but but

Sudden Valley · 03-12-2023 2:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447847#Comment_121447847

They are not protecting themselves by building settlements. I dont think the Israelis even use that rationale. How does moving closer to the enemy make you more secure? It is a means of making sure any future Israeli state is bigger and the Palestinian one smaller.

The Palestinians haven't obviously felt they have been offered a good agreement while the Israelis think they were brilliant. That it is. It doesnt mean the agreements were fair. Just because a peace deal isnt agreed, that doesnt justify that one side can perform actions to make the next agreement even worse.

Its like Darth Vader saying, I have altered the deal - Pray I don't alter it again.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 2:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447847#Comment_121447847

So the settlements in the West Bank, they protect Israel against which neighbors?

The more they expand the land, the closer they get to neighboring borders.

Think Russia attacking Ukraine because of the risk of NATO, if they had taken Ukraine, they would have an additional 4 NATO countries boarding mainland Russia. So occupy land to protect yourself by getting closer to your enemy? WTF kinda logic is that?

And building settlements on the area (not a neutral or buffer zone) places your own citizens closer to your neighbours.

It's madness to use that as an excuse, do you not agree?

What's next, take Jordan and Iraq and then complain that Iran is their neighbour?

Oh we better attack Iran to protect us now.

sock.rocker* · 03-12-2023 2:45am

He would have supported Cromwell.

sock.rocker* · 03-12-2023 2:52am

It is completely impossible to believe these people when they say they don't support the West Bank settlements when they break world records in how fast they add seventeen buts to defend them.

Tell me how · 03-12-2023 6:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447798#Comment_121447798

The majority of people haven't a life where they are under the permanent subjugation from the military of a neighboring state which controls almost every facet of their lives to some degree. I'm not suggesting that the people involved on Oct 7th were/are the same as normal people in that moment, but that moment didn't happen out of nowhere. Their lives, their parents lives, their grandparents lives have been negatively influenced by the actions of others. You put any normal people through that, then I believe they would join a Hamas or similar group of the opportunity was there for them.

I could have phrased my original post differently because I do agree it is true that right now there is a difference between Hamas and 'normal' people but let me put it another way to make the point I was making. Say you could offer the entirety of the Gaza strip peace tomorrow, and that they would have completely free control over the territory, the ability to build an airport, build ports, come and go of their own free will. And to not leave in fear of persecution and threats from Israel, then I expect that the vast majority would select that option rather than being members of Hamas.

You can't judge members of Hamas without looking at the environment in which it exists. We saw people in the US arrested and charged with a plot to kill a state governor because they were mostly angry with Covid restrictions. Now you pick any state in the US, and you treat it by the other states like Palestine has been treated by Israel, and do you really believe there wouldn't be a similar resistance group formed immediately?

Igotadose · 03-12-2023 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447671#Comment_121447671

Well, that poll that was posted here says Palestinians largely favor Hamas, so they want them to succeed.

Recall that after the last election in Gaza, Hamas murdered their opponents in the PA that won seats. No one protected those PA politicians in Gaza, either. So there was very strong support for Hamas then, and today, in Gaza and in the minds of Palestinians.

If you've read Hamas' charter, they don't want to live a life that's safe and free. Much like your average Russian citizen, the Gazans are content to be human shields or become martyrs for their cause of killing all Jews worldwide.

Hey boy · 03-12-2023 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121445939#Comment_121445939

See, that comment is probably quite fair actually as far as it goes but why oh why do they not also protest against Hamas violence?

Any

’Hamas Out’

’Hamas Surrender’

’Release Hostages Now’

posters?

If not, how can people go along and suggest they are for a ceasefire? It takes two to tango.

kirk. · 03-12-2023 10:30am

I see the British are operating over Gaza

Unmanned planes supposedly checking for hostages

According to minister on SUNDAY just now, wtf is that about . They have to get involved in everything ffs can't even build their own HS railway

Danzy · 03-12-2023 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447810#Comment_121447810

Civilian loss is quite small given the scale of fighting, heavily populated urban element, no other army would have been as careful.

That high level of care may be the difference between Hamas surviving in the South West of Gaza.

I suspect that Israel will accept that rather than follow the advice and example of others.

odyssey06 · 03-12-2023 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447614#Comment_121447614

They tried and failed - which proves my point. You are 2 for 2 in examples of why it is very easy to write... target the leadership but in practice, the examples show it doesn't work out that way in practice - otherwise countries could just get rid of conventional forces. Of course they don't.

You said an army like any other, you didn't say must be modern, but when I provide a modern example you still want to try to point score off 1940 references?

When your own posts contradict (Israel to declare a ceasefire and keep attacking!) and undermine your own argument, there's no need for me to add more at this point.

You shared your concept, posters can see what you've outlined and my critique of it.

pjohnson · 03-12-2023 11:36am

"Hamas only want safe and free lives" might be the most comical thing posted on this entire site this year.

Trying to retcon them into being modern day Gandhi's.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448264#Comment_121448264

You consider 6000 children killed a small loss? I'm absolutely baffled at that.

Even the Americans are telling Israel to be more careful. They are hardly saying that if no other army would have been as careful.

The battle for Mosul had an even higher population density than the Gaza strip but the civilian death toll was 11000 over 9 months. Israel managed that figure in a month.

Igotadose · 03-12-2023 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448341#Comment_121448341

Did the Mosul residents have somewhere to escape to? Were they allowed to leave? Neither is true for Gaza.

ceadaoin. · 03-12-2023 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447937#Comment_121447937

You can judge members of Hamas by the fact that they murdered, tortured raped, burnt, and beheaded people. Nothing to do with the "environment in which it exists" surely?

brickster69 · 03-12-2023 12:02pm

Possible explosion reported at the Bab al-Mandeb Strait.

Wolf359f · 03-12-2023 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448356#Comment_121448356

Well they were being used as human shields by ISIS. Over the course of the 9 months a million were evacuated. Even at that, it would be the same population density as in Gaza right now. So the excuse that the high civilian death toll is due to the population density is ridiculous when compared to the battle of Mosul. Brutal terrorists, human shields, same population density, same western weapons being used. It's not like Israeli smart bombs are less smart than the Americans etc...

There's scant if any evidence Israel is trying in anyway to keep civilian casualties at a minimum.

Danzy · 03-12-2023 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448396#Comment_121448396

Every single house in Mosul was systematically hit with a artillery round to punch through and kill any fighters , that was after months of evacuation of over a million people.

Estimates of 40k for dead in Mosul are also given, despite the long evacuation. No one will ever know really though.

I hope that the approach in Mosul is not replicated, total war.

Donald Trump · 03-12-2023 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447798#Comment_121447798

What is it in their genetics that make them different? Is it the shade of "brownness"?

People are shaped by their environment. For Palestinians, that environment is shaped by Israel, and has been for decades and decades. Since before their grandparents time

Danzy · 03-12-2023 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448453#Comment_121448453

You'll be measuring their skull shapes next.

Donald Trump · 03-12-2023 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448468#Comment_121448468

Simply wondering what was the basis for the strong resistance to an assertion that a certain group of people would be inherently just like other people. I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't be.

If Israel fails in its aims of complete genocide and elimination of the Palestinians, then no doubt there will be another generation of Hamas equivalent organisation to come along in 15-20 years. My opinion is that it is Israel who control and create the dynamic and have ultimate responsibility.

What do you think is yourself that might cause this - assuming you have the same opinion that it is something inherently different to them rather than environmental?

Donald Trump · 03-12-2023 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448396#Comment_121448396

Israel: "We gave the civilians warning to move south to refugee camps. For the ones who didn't move, it was their own fault they were vapourised in the school they were taking shelter in. They could have moved if they wanted to"

Also Israel: "Well the reason we had to bomb the market in the camp in the south is that we heard there might be a fella who liked Hamas walking nearby. It's not our fault that we killed the civilians. Hamas are forcing them to stay so that they can be used as human shields. Civilians can't just move as evil Hamas won't let them"