Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216419#Comment_121216419

Moat Irish people don't give a damn about religion any more. Why would we be pro-Muslim and anti-Semetic? Or pro Hindu and anti Muslim? Or pro Buddhist and anti -jain?

Those jains are proper b*stards. And I'm a vegan myself. But can't stand those h**rs.

Stop projecting your crap onto the Irish psyche. The pro-Palestinian piece echoes the oppression in the north and is culturally bound up with that. The Israeli, and Palestinian, cause is close to the hearts of the Irish people and foreign policy; hence our long experience in and empathy for both peoples. To try and undermine that deep experience is disingenuous. Both Israel and their opponents (Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah) recognise the honest broker role the Irish nation plays.

So cop yourself on.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216490#Comment_121216490

Its a vicious circle and is it will continue unabated for hundreds of years until people realise that you have to treat people fairly.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216496#Comment_121216496

He has the political opinions of a 14 year old who has just discovered the internet.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216446#Comment_121216446

Is closing your borders against the Geneva Convention? Because Egypt has sealed its border with Gaza, and the close dependency of Gaza on Israel, the closing of Israel's border has a bigger effect, but does that make it illegal?

This is a serious question. An allegation of war crimes has been bandied about but is closing your borders and cutting off contact with your neighbours a war crime? If it is, is North Korea in perpetual acts of war crimes?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216505#Comment_121216505

That is more of less what I was saying, just blunter.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216469#Comment_121216469

Just because you keep repeating the same baseless claims over and over again, it doesn't make it fact. Unless you have some actual proof to back up your claims.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216469#Comment_121216469

I find it strange why you want to try to bully and shout down any criticism of Israel's policy (a literal war crime) by screaming about antisemitism.

I mean I could do the same and just point out the links between far right groups - with their hatred of brown people and muslims - and support for Israel and dismiss any criticism of Hamas as simply being naked racism and bigotry.

You don't have to be racist or have a hatred of all Muslims to speak out against Hamas actions, the same as you don't have to be antisemetic to speak out against Israel's actions.

Most people on here (including myself) are speaking out against both. But apparently, to some posters, we are antisemitic for saying Israel is wrong to do what it is doing.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216483#Comment_121216483

Well your response to a Palestinian child being bombed was "Collateral damage is an unfortunate, unavoidable facet of war".

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216507#Comment_121216507

You are aware of the position of Gaza? It has access to the sea but the Israelis control their coastline so your post is entirely disingenuous.

Are you really ok with cutting off food, fuel and water to 2 million people. Half of whom are children?

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216486#Comment_121216486

I am inclined to agree with facts, not distort them and use them. That people (that came) from Gaza killed children. That they appear to be the incumbent government and therefore should be culled to the last man. But not by chaotic slaughter of innocents.

That people from the Israeli state have already committed heinous acts and will add many more to it and blame the Hamas leadership (and by proxy the little people of Palestine for aiding and abetting them. That's Ballymurphy/Bloody Sunday logic, do you disagree???

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216510#Comment_121216510

He's only been told about it in school and likes the sound of it. He's been putting it into every post today. Not a word about the innocent people who were butchered by Hamas or blown to bits by Israel.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216510#Comment_121216510

Atrocities were/are being committed by both sides, I condemn all actions that harm civilians on both sides.

Regarding right wing extremists, I always found it strange that the far left and far right both had anti semitic views.Strange bedfellows or maybe not.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216528#Comment_121216528

Plenty of far-right pro-Israel groups

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-are-us-pro-israel-groups-boosting-a-far-right-anti-muslim-uk-extremist/

Anti-Muslim groups tend to be pro-Israel.......... "enemy of my enemy" is how they see it.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216502#Comment_121216502

You are f%^^%$ naive if you dont think the the extreme left and far right dont buy into the whole world jewish conspiracy, they both have a visceral hatred of jews, this hatred is growing in Ireland, it may be a small clique but its there.

TedBundysDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216397#Comment_121216397

It's okay though as they have terrorists living among them something something.....

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216477#Comment_121216477

Ah the Muslim Brotherhood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt?wprov=sfla1

That Bastien of democracy. It was trying to impose Islam doctrine similar to the Taliban. There was a popular uprising against it.

Problem with organisations like that that when they get into power they abolish all Democratic institutions in a state

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216507#Comment_121216507

Serious questions, if so, should be reflected upon prior to asking and should stand the test of logic.

Q) Is North Korea Israel and, if so, who is the NK Gaza?? If there is an NK Gaza, can they access their own coastline?

Just curious as to how your brain 'works'.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216525#Comment_121216525

Egypt has a border with Gaza.

I never said I was ok with what they are doing, I was just asking a question as to how shutting your borders and indeed, protecting your coastal waters from infiltration is a war crime and incompatible with international law. I am not saying what Israel is doing is morally right, but I haven't seen anything that confirms it is illegal.

There is nothing disingenuous about asking a question as to how Israel's actions in closing its border (as opposed to its actions in indiscriminate bombing) are a war crime, as been claimed on Twitter and on here.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216537#Comment_121216537

See, this is the nasty crap. Implying that anyone criticizing the Israeli state is either a far-left antisemite or a far-right antisemite.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216528#Comment_121216528

Horseshoe theory of politics.

Paul Murphy and John McGuirk have more in common with each other than they do with centrist politicians like Leo Varadkar and Micheal Martin.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216543#Comment_121216543

They are not just closing off the border (as you well know). They control all supplies going in and out and have cut those off too as a collective punishment against the Palestinian's who live there. Water, food, electricity, medicine.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216485#Comment_121216485

The people of Gaza chose Hamas as there government. It's not just Israel is pi$$ed with them so is Egypt. Organisations like Hamas do not want peace

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216537#Comment_121216537

Yes the extreme far right left party are b#stids and need watching.

Good spot chief.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216542#Comment_121216542

Again, this is not a question about the logistical implications, this is about the legal consequences of closing your borders. There has been a claim, and it has been repeated many times, that Israel is committing a war crime by closing its borders. There are humanitarian implications from that, but I am asking as to how international law is being broken. It is a fundamental principle of international law that a country can close its borders and the example I have given - North Korea - have been doing it for decades.

This isn't about how my brain works, this is about what is legally wrong. If there is a war crime, people should be actually able to explain what that is, rather than just spouting out "Oh, that is a war crime".

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216549#Comment_121216549

Nothing travels from North Korea to South Korea, a collective punishment against the South Koreans by North Korea. That it is less effective than Israel against Gaza is acknowledged, but that still doesn't clarify the allegation of war crimes.

I am asking for those who believe it is a war crime to specify what part of international or other law has been broken.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216401#Comment_121216401

The only reasonable position for any elected official in this country to take on this issue is to call for a ceasefire and to encourage a peaceful resolution.

Paul Murphy is happy to stir things up and lead protests that result in laws being broken and other attendees being arrested (notably stays out of handcuffs himself).

Like all champagne socialists he's happy to take a hard line from a safe distance of a few thousand miles.

This is what you get with political extremists though so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone this guy is a fvcking TD for Christ's sake.

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121215963#Comment_121215963

Israel's sense of security and dominion over the Palestinians has been totally shattered.

Bombing innocent women & children will not make it return.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216567#Comment_121216567

Don't be feigning ignorance and making up dishonest false equivalences. It's nonsense.

Israel controls everything going into and out of Gaza. South Korea does not control anything going into and out of NK.

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216559#Comment_121216559

This may ywt well be about how your brain works.

And a quick lesson about Google/Wikipedia also. All that you seek is within reach.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

"The ICRC termed Israel's blockade of Gaza "collective punishment" in violation of international humanitarian law. In 2010 it also called the blockade a violation of the Geneva Conventions and called for its lifting".

These views are supported by further legal analyses. A multi-referenced University of California, Hastings College of the Law analysis recorded:

"Under customary international law, a blockade is an act of war. It is employed to cut off communications and supplies of an enemy. While the modern concept extends beyond its original and exclusive maritime roots to include both land and technological blockades, the consistent feature is that a blockade's purpose has been to deprive a military adversary of necessary supplies. A belligerent imposing a blockade upon a region consisting of a civilian population must allow the free passage of relief consignments to the civilian population. In fact, the legality of a blockade under customary international law hinges on the requirement that aid for the civilian population be met with free passage.

The reasons cited for Israel's refusal to allow passage of basic necessities are untenable. Israel claimed that its restrictions were necessary to put pressure on Hamas officials to halt or substantially hinder the firing of rockets into Southern Israel. However, there is no reasonable relationship between depriving Gazan civilians of subsistence items and the suppression of Hamas' rocket launchings against Israeli towns. Israel's duties to "protected persons" as an occupier of the Gaza Strip under Article 55 of the Fourth Geneva Convention require that it allow the passage of all aid, foodstuffs, and water given the severity of the humanitarian crisis. The blockade appears to have clearly violated this provision of the law of occupation.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212960#Comment_121212960

he literally quoted his sources

Long Sean Silver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216550#Comment_121216550

i'm not sure they choose Hamas as you put it, but let's indulge your inaccuracy for a moment. they have been backed into a corner by a much more powerful occupier, backed and pay-rolled by the most powerful war machine on the planet.

perhaps the people of Palestine have been left with little or no choice. when you have no choice left, you must do what you have to do to survive.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216586#Comment_121216586

Article 55, which you quote, and I am not conceding as to its applicability to the current circumstances, also has an exceptional clause - "temporary restrictions are made necessary by imperative military requirements". Given what happened to Israel over the weekend, and given the over-riding right to self defence, those exceptions are clearly in play. Now, if Israel continued this blockade for say, a month, and it could be established that Article 55 does apply (which I am not conceding) then you may have a point.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216579#Comment_121216579

Either closing your borders is allowed under international law and both North Korea and Israel are allowed to do it, or it isn't.

The problem you have is that international law, or any law, does not take account of equivalences.

Danzy

Some of the Nazi scum protesting outside the Israeli embassy tore up flowers and cards sympathising over the attacks.

There is a very sizeable group in the Pro Palestinian group that are among the most disturbed and vile people in modern political activism.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213299#Comment_121213299

naive.

try publishing a cartoon of a certain person.

Interesting how many Irish people would be supporting the Brits going by their love of Israel to "defend itself"

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216606#Comment_121216606

That is horrendous is true. Paul Murphy was leading that protest, wasn't he?

Red Silurian

Interesting to see the (American) Republicans wanting a hands off approach to Ukraine but very quick to say they need to do something in Israel

Putin pulling strings there I wonder

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216541#Comment_121216541

the muslim brotherhood are **** certainly, but it is not quite true to say there was a popular uprising against them when they were elected to government.

there were some protests certainly, but it was the military who used those protests as a means to overthrow the elected government because said government were going to take away some of the military's powers.

the military didn't do what they did to preserve democracy or because they care about it, they don't and were as if not more brutal then what they replaced.

I find the triumphalism on this thread very interesting. Let’s say 1000 Israeli civilians are dead. The IDF go 20-1 as per SOP and kill 20,000 plus in Gaza.

Whst happens next? Hamas cannot defeat Israel militarily? So they escalate and do this every month. It doesn’t take long before Israel runs out of people in the Gaza Strip to kill.

There are no winners in this here, just 1,000s and 1,000s dead. Both sides would want to remember that rather than replying the undergraduate debates on structures of power and international relations.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216603#Comment_121216603

Again, please stop feigning ignorance. Closing their border is not the issue. The issue is the deliberate cutting off the supply of basic human necessities from the people of Gaza.

Ships that attempt to bring food and water to dying kids in Gaza will have to brave serious threats of being blown out of the water.

Some previous incidents:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/deported-rachel-corrie-activists-arrive-home-1.859205

Alan Shatter denounced the killing by Israel of other activists trying to bring humanitarian aid into Gaza

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20121492.html

BorneTobyWilde

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results''

This is Israel. They are going to inspire another generation of terrorists, by killing the innocent, Hamas needs wiping out, not the innocent people of Palestine. Can you imagine the UK bombing Ireland, Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Cork, over the actions of the IRA, but his is what Israel does, and then terrorists are born from those actions, and they do the same to Israel. The innocent people on both sides suffer.

Israel needs to be more precise in their actions, go in, and hunt those terrorists down, not kill kids with bombs from the air

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216616#Comment_121216616

In the independent online.

The people who did it will be treated as heroes, really taking the fight to Irish Jews.

Jeff2

The only good thing to come out of terrible situation is you find out who is on what side of what happened in the last few days.

The left think what was done this weekend was all fine.

https://twitter.com/pb4p/status/1711492297148538971?t=4YIqufXrNemzcluxHpqmEw&s=19

Hey boy

but it is written down… in the Hamas charter.

screamer

Seeing trouble and tensions rising in England with this going on. Uk government have rowed in behind Israel, lighting up the Houses of Parliament in blue and white. In a multi cultural country such as they are, it’s a fine line they must tread as the tensions between people who support Israel and Palestine are running very high. Just an awful mess with wrong on all sides.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216633#Comment_121216633

I am not feigning ignorance. I have not said that what Israel is doing is morally correct. All I have done is ask those who claim that Israel's actions in closing its borders with Gaza are a war crime to explain to me how that is. If Israel is protecting its coastal waters and its territorial integrity, then no matter how much you or I agree or disagree with their actions, then they are not committing war crimes.

We have had a succession of ill-informed anti-semitic left-wing politicians and their supporters accuse Israel of war crimes, without any evidence.

thegame983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216639#Comment_121216639

Christ, what a bunch of clowns.

thegame983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216639#Comment_121216639

Christ, what a bunch of clowns.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216634#Comment_121216634

True, but Hamas have a different objective to the PIRA, Hamas want to eliminate Israel and all Jews from the face of the earth, PIRA just wanted to ethnic cleanse British people out of Northern Ireland.

However, if you look at your analogy another way, the British people showed great restraint, given what happened in Warrington, Enniskillen, Manchester, Birmingham and Canary Wharf.