Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455769#Comment_121455769

Some would beg to differ

"Jewish Voice for Peace is guided by a vision of justice, equality and freedom for all people. We unequivocally oppose Zionism because it is counter to those ideals."

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455769#Comment_121455769

We know why people of the Jewish religion were deemed worthy of having their own dedicated state. That was a consideration that should never have happened, Jews should have been welcomed, and made to feel welcome in all countries after WW2. Their actions since the foundation of the state have shown the mistake it was to grant them a country through taking land from other people.

And here we are, we've seen it everywhere, the media, the UN, the Whitehouse, the EU and so on and so on, their actions in carrying out a genocide cannot be criticised for what they are because of this magic card that they have manipulated so that they are absolved of criticism.

This will ultimately harm jewish people when the conflict in Gaza is no longer front page news and someone puts a microphone in front of Kanye West again or Elon Musk forgets what he promised Nethanyahu last week and tweets candidly once again. The next time there are tiki torch marches in Charlottsville, this will be a stick used to beat Jewish people with. Except it will be some guy who is a teacher in Brooklyn or a guy going to a gym in texas who will feel it first. Not those who want to obliterate the people of Gaza as fervently as Nazi's wanted to remove Jews from Europe.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455769#Comment_121455769

There are prominent former Zionists who say they now believe they were radicalised into holding dangerous and extreme opinions by little more than a death cult. One of the main points they make is that they had completely bought into the idea of Israel being a hapless victim fighting for its very survival (a central part of Zionist ideology) but now realise it was the oppressor and aggressor, certainly for the last 30-40 years.

Witness how many of Israel's defenders sound on social media. Many of them sound like deranged and bloodthirsty psychopaths, certainly not like 'victims' who have been oppressed or people fighting for justice and equality.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455798#Comment_121455798

Or a guy who owns a restaurant in Philadelphia?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/04/white-house-philadelphia-protest-israel-restaurant-antisemitic

Except it's not white supremacists targeting his restaurant is it? I'd imagine this mob would call themselves "anti zionist" and not "anti semitic" but their actions show otherwise. Having said that, no I don't think anti Zionism should be illegal, but you'd have to be extremely naive not to realize that a lot of people who hate Jews are hiding behind that label. Targeting Jewish owned businesses like this is reminiscent of 1930s Germany fgs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455798#Comment_121455798

"We know why people of the Jewish religion were deemed worthy of having their own dedicated state. That was a consideration that should never have happened, Jews should have been welcomed, and made to feel welcome in all countries after WW2. Their actions since the foundation of the state have shown the mistake it was to grant them a country through taking land from other people."

So being Jewish can only be expressed in terms of religion and not ethnicity? As a consequence, is this the reason they shouldn't have got a state of their own?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455854#Comment_121455854

Should travelers be given a state of their own?

Native American Indians?

Inuits?

Aborigines?

If the answer is no, why then should those of the Jewish ethnicity?

All that aside, substitute the word 'religion' with the word 'ethnicity' from the part of my post you quoted and the point still stands.

kirk.

The Israeli spokespersons would sicken ya listening to them telling the world how thoughtful they are to Gazan residents

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455854#Comment_121455854

Why should e.g. American Jews be more entitled to an additional "state of their own" as compared to Irish Americans?

Why don't we allow tens of thousands of Yanks with vague family memories and stories of great-great-great-great-great grandparents escaping the famine to come here and settle and seize property owned by immigrants who are only here 25 years?

There could be a Yank with Jewish and Irish ancestry. If you are happy for him to leave NY to go and seize a house and land in the West Bank which has been freshly dispossessed from the Palestinian family who owned it for countless generations, why can't he come to Blanchardstown and seize a foreigners house instead? Why do you consider him entitled to do one and not the other? Suppose the house in Blanchardstown is owned by a Palestinian - does that change your answer?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455866#Comment_121455866

No, the western media letting them is what is really sickening.

I'd love if Vincent Browne got 6 minutes on camera with Yariv Levin or Tzipi Hotovely

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455860#Comment_121455860

"Should travelers be given a state of their own? Native American Indians? Inuits? Aborigines?

If the answer is no, why then should those of the Jewish ethnicity?"

All you've done here is arbitrarily decide who should and shouldn't get a state, so I'm not seeing a relevant point here as regards Jews being an ethnic group.

"All that aside, substitute the word 'religion' with the word 'ethnicity' from the part of my post you quoted and the point still stands."

No it doesn't. Religion and ethnicity aren't that easily interchangable as you are trying to claim.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455842#Comment_121455842

Would you have had the same opinion of the Dunnes Stores workers who refused to handle South African goods as a protest against its policies back in the 80's?

They must have just been racists who hated South Africans?

Donald Trump

And people on here cheerlead this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i43WrOwwgpQ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455867#Comment_121455867

So you want to scrap the nation state then? That's all I can derive from your rather rambling post......

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455880#Comment_121455880

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455884#Comment_121455884

Well if you weren't saying why having nation states is not a good idea, I haven't a clue what point you were trying to make...?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455876#Comment_121455876

What does a random Jewish restaurant owner in the US have to do with the actions of the Israeli government exactly ? How does screaming abuse through a window thousands of miles away have any impact on their policies?

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455860#Comment_121455860

So Israel should be "taken away" from the Jews then, in your opinion?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455895#Comment_121455895

Cool, a Strawman.

Haven't seen one of those in about 6 minutes.

Nobody is suggesting that. They should behave in an acceptable manner to their neighbors, they should refrain from all illegal settlements, they should show interest in promoting a two state solution, they should stop asking like a spoiled kid at the UN and they should immediately call a full and unconditional ceasefire.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455874#Comment_121455874

A - You didn't answer my question.

B - You misunderstand the point. Read my original post with the word ethnicity in place of the word religion and consider it as its own original statement. I'm not saying they are the same thing, I'm saying you suggested that that word would have made me change my thoughts around my post. It doesn't.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455921#Comment_121455921

Well if not then what was the point of going on about how Jews shouldn't have been given their own state? They were, it happened and they are there now so you'll just have to accept it I guess.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455925#Comment_121455925

I edited my last post to include the following.

No one is suggesting that Israel is disbanded (or abandoned). They should behave in an acceptable manner to their neighbors, they should refrain from all illegal settlements, they should show interest in promoting a two state solution, they should stop acting like a spoiled kid at the UN and they should immediately call a full and unconditional ceasefire.

Just because this is the case now, it doesn't mean it was appropriate to found the state as was done or that that fact can't be pointed out. When so much of what Israel claims is on a God given right to the area, they are in no place to tell people to stop expressing their views about its origin.

Answer to A

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455923#Comment_121455923

Answer to A: There’s nothing to answer as I’m not following you down the rabbit hole of who should or shouldn’t have a state. That would be an exercise in time wasting.

B:

“We know why people of the Jewish religion were deemed worthy of having their own dedicated state. That was a consideration that should never have happened, Jews should have been welcomed, and made to feel welcome in all countries after WW2. Their actions since the foundation of the state have shown the mistake it was to grant them a country through taking land from other people.”

Under the IHRA guidelines this could be construed as antisemitism IMO.

From their site: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination”

?????

Set Adrift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455925#Comment_121455925

I don't think taking Israel away from the Jews is wanted by many. What's done is done. What the real problem is, is illegal Israeli expansion beyond their state boundaries since 1967, especially.

Hamas are a huge problem. Their brutality is frightening. It's terribly sad that in 2023 humans on both sides are acting out on their most base instincts. I'm not naive, and long enough in the world to know what humans are capable of. But such naked, vile hatred does no one any good. And the innocent suffer. And even online nothing but anger and hatred, from the Middle East to the Dublin riots.

For all its imperfections huge kudos to those who brought peace to our island. In 1993 after Oslo, it looked like real progress was happening between Israel and Palestine. We all have sons, daughters, grandchildren. And when you stop and think for a minute of them being in this 2023 conflict. It just doesn't bear thinking about.

And irony of ironies all this is taking place in the 'Holy Land' and most of us here, up to 40 years ago, followed the teachings (mostly very good ones) of a Jew called Jesus, and are heading into silly season to celebrate his birthday. Sometimes it's not worth stopping to think because everything is so incongruous.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455931#Comment_121455931

So you ask a question about the reasoning behind Israel being granted a state, and you imply it was warranted for ethnic reasons, but when I ask if you feel other ethnicities should therefore be justified in asking for a state, it's a rabbit hole? OK, your dancing around the question is an answer enough.

And given your quote from the IHRA suggesting their right to self determination based on their Jewish ethnicity, then it is again valid to ask do other ethnicities not deserve the same right?

So either consider the ethnicity argument in its entirety or admit you feel Jewish people are deserving of preferential treatment above and beyond that granted to other ethnic groups.

(All this aside, I'm not going to doff the cap to the opinion of the IHRA given their lack of consideration for the suffering of the Palestinians in their recent announcements and the blocking of accounts challenging them on this fact on Twitter)

What do you think they would say the phrase 'Never again truly meant given you are expressing how they would think kn my comments? Did it only refer to the persecution of Jewish people, because it sure looks that way.

TheRepentent

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455721#Comment_121455721

yeah that's bollox. A 4 year old would know that being against Zionism doesn't mean you hate jews. Fuk even the sh1tebags that do say anti-zionism is antisemitism know its bollox as well but use it as a way to shut down talk of israeli war cirmes and their history of war crimes since the foundation of their state.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455842#Comment_121455842

The fash have held several BDS protests in England outside Mark and Sparks, it having been founded by a Jew a century and a half ago.

I wonder how long do they view before that "taint" washes out?

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455721#Comment_121455721

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws#:~:text=Georgia%20as%20unconstitutional.-,Illinois,funds%20to%20divest%20from%20them.

it gets better, these laws are shutting down people even posting things on social media or agreeing with them.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455983#Comment_121455983

Probably never. Any association with judaism is enough for these people.

Meanwhile, a couple of London bus drivers have allegedly been refusing to let Jewish kids on. That'll show Israel. Totally not anti semitic

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jewish-antisemitism-israel-bus-tfl-b2456673.html

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455880#Comment_121455880

The point they were making is that you can't just rock on up to somewhere, claim your ancestors were from there, take a house from the locals and declare your own state.

If a feck load of Irish americans came back, took half the country and then set up outposts in the rest of the country, we'd recognize it's wrong. But when jewish people did it in Israel, it was considered ok. The jewish population of palestine 100 years ago was minuscule.

Yet a load of european and american jewish people managed to turn up there, kick out the british, then kick out arabs and declare a state. Then they managed to take even more land. And they're still doing it to this day. New settlements spring up all the time. It's western colonialism. And the best excuses then can make is that it's the ancestral homeland of the jewish people, or the jewish people deserve a homeland or palestine never existed as a country. None of which justify the mass displacement of the indigenous population.

Here's the thing though, if we had a time machine then the best option might be to go back to 1948 and make some changes so that we're not in the mess we are in now. But we obviously can't. Israel exists. It's populated by millions of people. They have a right to defend themselves. But so too do the Palestinians. I am disgusted by the actions of hamas. hamas are scum. But I can also fully understand the desire to fight back. And although I'm a pacifist, I do wonder how long my ideals would hold if I was a Palestinian and if I had to live under occupation by a foreign power who's inhabitants claim a right to my home because 2000 years ago someone from their ethnic group might have lived in the same rough area.

Grayson

btw, Antisemitism, besides being wrong on every level is just stupid. It's been around for centuries and there's always some stupid conspiracy or religious reason for it. Jewish people run everything. Jewish people sacrafice babies. Jewish people were boogiemen for european racists for centuries. This peaked with the holocaust when millions were killed because of stupid conspiracies backed up by junk science.

Anti semitism, is just plain wrong. Same with Islamaphobia. Hating on someone because of what they are, instead of the person they are is just wrong. It's wrong to hate muslims, but it's ok to hate the members of Hamas/ISIS/etc.

Likewise it's wrong to hate jewish people just for being jewish, But it's ok to hate subsections who cause pain and suffering to other groups. I am disgusted by the settlers who move into an area and harass the local population. But I'm not disgusted by someone just because they're jewish or israeli.

I'm also disgusted by sections of the US christian religious right who believe that when israel contains all the lands that were jewish 2000 years ago, it will cause the rapture.

If you're going to hate someone, it had better be because they have done, or they supported, some disgusting action. Not because of the ethnic or religious group they are part of.

Field east

Noreen Reilly on Newstalk just now about DCC flying the Palestine flag over City Hall. Will the Council decide to fly the Ukr flag at its next meeting . ?

brickster69

The ICRC has a policy of only speaking out in exceptional cases

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/confidentiality-q

https://twitter.com/ICRCPresident/status/1731761900994621721

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455842#Comment_121455842

if the anti-zionists are being honest, they'd switch to "Anti Israeli Government Policy," as Zionism isn't the reason there's a war in Gaza today.

And, Anti-Zionism is being used by vast swaths of people to hide their antisemitism, and to get away with propagating antisemitic tropes (remember the lad here with the dual citizenship stuff?)

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-zionism-antisemitism-how-anti-zionist-language-left-and-right-vilifies-jews

brickster69

British troops on the ground in Gaza.

https://twitter.com/declassifiedUK/status/1731724100781875215

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455943#Comment_121455943

"So you ask a question about the reasoning behind Israel being granted a state, and you imply it was warranted for ethnic reasons, but when I ask if you feel other ethnicities should therefore be justified in asking for a state, it's a rabbit hole? OK, your dancing around the question is an answer enough."

Why do you need to bring in other ethnicities when one wants to talk about Jewishness in terms of ethnicity? Would you do the same re the Spanish and the Italians etc?

"And given your quote from the IHRA suggesting their right to self determination based on their Jewish ethnicity, then it is again valid to ask do other ethnicities not deserve the same right?"

Again, why bring in other ethnicities? We could argue to the point where no one deserves a state.......

"So either consider the ethnicity argument in its entirety or admit you feel Jewish people are deserving of preferential treatment above and beyond that granted to other ethnic groups."

Would you argue out of existence Italy and Spain?

brickster69

WHO told to move supplies somewhere else.

https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1731775914621473109

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456171#Comment_121456171

There is no comparison between Italy and Spain and Israel. Zero.

You should consider why it is you are so reluctant to consider other ethnicities right to a country or other considerations when it is because of their ethnic identity and experience that many Zionists justify preferential treatment.

hotmail.com

Dublin City Council completely out of touch.

Dublin people fed up of these now weekly marches on Saturday afternoons.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456375#Comment_121456375

How do you know?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456171#Comment_121456171

You say, would you argue out of existance spain and italy. How about if a group of people, descended from Romans 2000 years ago, decided to take over large parts of italy declare a country and then occupy the rest of Italy, keeping the population in submission, whilst calling Italians who want self rule terrorists. Surely, the actual italians, living in italy, have rights. And how does the right of another ethnic group trounce theirs?

Countries exist. Ethnic groups exist. Sometimes they are both the same as in Ireland. But not always. Ethnic groups have no entitlement to their own country, but especially when they are not from that place. People in any area have the right to safety, security representation and self determination. And as mentioned, the fact that Italy is majority populated with Italians, and Spain is majority populated with Spaniards.

Roma originated in northern India. They are an ethnic group. They are dispersed around Europe. They have been persecuted for centuries. I believe they were the second largest group killed in the Holocaust. Should they have a right to claim part of northern India?

And please don't reply with "well if they want to, they should try it", or "I'm not going to tell them what they should do, it's their decision". I hate when people do that. It's a cop out and dodges the question.

When one ethnic group moves to another area, displaces the indigenous people and claims the land of their own, we call that colonialism.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456396#Comment_121456396

The City is on its knees since the riots.

The last thing it needs is a protest disrupting the whole place every Saturday.

Time for that to end. These protestors don't even spend any money in the city.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456415#Comment_121456415

If anything these protests bring people in to the city center.

What makes you think they don't spend money?

Dublin city has been on its knees for a long time, these protests aren't really making that worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456404#Comment_121456404

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Every ethnic group deserves a state? Some do and some don't? Or nobody does?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456351#Comment_121456351

"There is no comparison between Italy and Spain and Israel. Zero."

Well, it was you who wanted to bring other ethnicities into the argument.....?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456415#Comment_121456415

O'Connell Street has had weekly gatherings and protests on Saturdays for many years, on a whole range of issues. They are often not reported, but marches from the GPO to the Dáil on a Saturday are actually quite common.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456524#Comment_121456524

Correction it was this guy.

Recognize them?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456099#Comment_121456099

That would be viewed as a grievous insult to Russia and a lack of solidarity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456578#Comment_121456578

Nope. You were talking about the Jews already. I responded to your original post and then you brought in the following:

"Native American Indians? Inuits? Aborigines?"

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456708#Comment_121456708

Do you realize people can read the posts.

I referred to the foundation of Israel for the people of the Jewish religion and you responded to that asking should ethnicity not be considered. Hence the relevant asking about states on that basis for other ethnicities.

You literally focused the conversation on ethnicity stop trying to twist this like the evidence isn't right there in front of us.

Set Adrift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456461#Comment_121456461

The poster is pointing out how ridiculous it is to claim land that was occupied by your ancestors 2000 years ago and throw out the present incumbents.

You understand very clearly what's being said and are dancing around like Michael Flatley on the point because you know it's wrong and have no reply.